MBTA gets a charge out of new buses
By adamg - 4/20/10 - 11:59 pm
The MBTA today rolled out its first hybrid bus, which will run along route 39 with three other of the $900,000, federally stimulated buses. Another four of the diesel/electric buses will be put into service along route 28 and the Washington Street Silver Line. None, presumably, use Prius floor mats.
Comments
Theyve been testing one of
Theyve been testing one of them for a couple of months.
Also, the comment is misleading, I believe each bus costs 900k, not 4 of them (which is sort of what is implied)
Now, the question is, will the stops along route 28 be increased so a 60 foot bus can fit, or can we look forward to street loading?
I read that each costs $900k
I read that each costs $900k in the original post.
As for the these buses, it's great to see the stimulus being used for positive transit like this.
Ha
I rode one into work this morning and was impressed at first until a whole light beam on the ceiling because dislodged and just dangled there. The bus driver tried to fix it but no luck.
I know there are alot of cameras on these buses but there are alot of exposed screws on these things. I can see kids having fun with that and more than just a ceiling light beam will be the only problem.
How much does a regular CNG bus cost?
Anyone know how much one of the regular CNG busses cost? Are hybrid busses really more environmentally friendly than CNG busses?
Hybrid, but DIESEL. Why aren't they CNG like the current busses?
These are a step backwards. The MBTA was using CNG busses (both regular and articulated) on the 39 route as a concession to ripping up the E-line and the pollution. In fact, it may have even been part of the legal settlement over the big dig.
The CNG busses are louder, but CNG doesn't generate nearly as many pollutants when it burns. Diesel busses generate a lot of particulates- the kind that cause asthma and cancer. I also seem to recall that the CNG busses are more efficient?
So, for a 20% increase in fuel efficiency over the worst technology, we get to suck diesel fumes.
This is a perfectly illustrated "greenwash". Slap a "hybrid" label on something that generates WORSE pollution!
You're wrong
CNG vs Diesel facts
The PM (particulate matter) from a diesel can be controlled to the same level as CNG through a filter on the exhaust, especially if the diesel runs on low sulfur diesel gas. The CNG may also put out more carbon monoxide. There are other factors such as initial cost of the bus, distribution of the CNG for refueling, more frequent refueling, larger/heavier gas tanks for CNG, etc.
It's not as crystal clear as you think it is. Nor is it as smoggy grey.
No, YOU'RE WRONG.
My ass could be gold-plated. That doesn't mean it IS.
Are the new busses equipped with particulate filters? I seriously doubt it.
Does anyone know who makes these busses or what model they are? Neoplans of some sort?
Also: way to dredge up SEVEN YEAR OLD INFORMATION which uses Miami as a study...yeah, Miami...public transit posterchild....?
Calm down
You don't know if they're filter-equipped or not, so don't be a jackass. Your first post was a blanket statement about "CNG > Diesel!". My point is that this is not always true. Diesel technology is improved and can compete with CNG on a lot of environmental levels and is better than CNG on others.
If you don't know what models, what options, what improvements are on these buses, then you have no justification to rail on about how bad they are...because you don't have a clue if they're bad or not at all...so shut up and research it first before you shoot your mouth of some more.
Also, so what if the data is 7 years old, that's next to nothing in terms of development time. If you know of something more recent that discusses CNG vs diesel technology, then feel free to reference it. I'd rather work from data from 7 years ago than no data at all...like you want to do.
the very link you gave says it's outdated information
The link you gave already says that its information is outdated and that busses studied were using old technology even when the research was published:
"It is important to note that the manufacturer is now selling newer, more advanced CNG engines than the ones used at Miami or Tacoma."
I also don't understand why the world bank is running a site that seems exclusively dedicated to fighting the use of CNG in transit.
Here you and Brett go
2008 National Renewable Energy Laboratory report on CNG vs Diesel hybrid buses
Chew on that for a while. They conclude that the diesel hybrids (already using PM filters and low-sulfur diesel) are cleaner, get more miles per gallon, reduce maintenance costs, and basically beat CNG buses in about every category that matters. Second generation diesel hybrids do even better than first generation ones. You'll have to go find out if the MBTA uses Gen I or Gen II buses yourselves.
New enough for you? Impartial enough? Clear enough?
Nahhh, I'm sure you'll just ignore and keep crying over "them going back to diesel".
too bad that study doesn't include anything about emissions
Too bad that study doesn't include anything about emissions.
Holy cow, you're right!
That must be why they included that table on the FIRST PAGE that says "EPA Emissions Requirements for Transit Buses" just for shits and giggles. They dispense with the emissions discussion in the introduction because between the EPA and the NYC Clean Bus standards, the emissions of the hybrid diesel are no worse than the emissions of CNG.
But thanks for playing.
The MBTA's buses are 60-ft
The MBTA's buses are 60-ft artics built by New Flyer with Cummins ISL diesel engines coupled to an Allison hybrid drive. The "Gen II" buses used by NYC are 40-ft Orions, with Cummins ISL diesels coupled to a BAE hybrid drive. They are not identical systems, but the emmisions output should be comparable. Right now, only New Flyer and NABI offer articulated buses in the North American market although Nova has just re-entered the US market (they are Canadian-based) and are offering a new articulated version of their base modal. The other big North American builders, Gillig and Orion, do not offer artics although Orion, which is owned by Daimler, have been developing a North American version of their European articulated bus. Neoplan USA, the builder of the MBTA's CNG artics, went out of business several years ago.
NABI is now the only firm even offering CNG articulated buses in North America. The MBTA's Neoplans were the first North American CNG articulated buses. Because of the need for the fuel from the tanks at the front of the bus to reach the engine in the rear through a flexible coupling, it wasn't even clear until Neoplan came up with a design in 2003 that a CNG artic could be built. NABI is building a large number of CNG artics for Los Angeles, but the only other agencies to order CNG artics from them are two small orders in Phoenix and Washington DC. They are very unusual, most artics are straight diesel, but diesel-elctric hybrid artics are growing in popularity. Seattle has a huge fleet of New Flyer hybrid artics and Chicago also has received a large amount.
Because this MBTA order was a quick order using stimulus money, the MBTA had to tag on to another agencies order to get a quick delivery. These 25 buses are off of an option from a New Flyer order from Albquerque NM, although the specs were changed to the MBTA's requirements.
The primary assignment for these buses will be Route 28 when the MBTA's quarterly schedule change in June goes into effect, they will only be used on the 39 in small numbers after June. The CNG artics will still dominate Route 39, and won't be due for replacement for another 5-8 years. There will be plenty of time for the MBTA to compare the hybrids to the CNGs before they need to decide what type the eventual replacements for the existing CNG artics will be.
CNG bus replacement
Sweet, sweet trackless trolleys.
I know it won't happen, but a man can dream.
Hybrid technology will
Hybrid technology will probably continue to improve to the point that its going to be very hard to make the case for the large investment required for trackless installation. As it is, there ae only five trackless operations in the USA: Boston (Routes 71, 72, and 73), Philadelphia, Dayton OH, Seattle, and San Francisco. Philadelphia has reduced their network in the last 10 years (although they did buy new buses for the three lines that remain) and Dayton's fleet is going to be due for replacement again in the not too distant future and they will have to decide again if it is worth keeping the network. That list of five is likly to shrink, not grow, over the next 20 years.
Miami: A Public Transit Poster-Child? Yes!
lol on the gold-plated rear-end!
But anyway, yes, I would say Miami would be a poster-child of public transit. I've been there numerous times, most notably my second time, Spring Break 1999, when I got to ride all of the local modes of transportation:
*Metrorail: Their one main elevated rail, the "Orange Line" is easily comparable to our Orange Line, minus the frequent signal outages and weekend busing. There's is actually expanding, though. Plus, in the overnight, bus service fills in so, you know, people aren't S.O.L. from midnight-early morning.
*Metromover: Everything the Washington Street Silver Line and Waterfront Silver Line could've and should've been: free, fast and automated. Plus, it integrates well into the surrounding skyline to boot.
*Tri-Rail Commuter Rail: easily comparable to our Old Colony lines, except A. there was actually overwhelming demand for the service when it started (which blew even the most astute transportation planners away--who would've thought Southerners would be so willing to get out their cars and off I-95?!) and B. it doesn't suffer from faulty-tie syndrome (sorry, had to throw that one in). Plus, unlike the Old Colony Lines, the entire line has since been double-tracked for increased capacity.
*Metrobus: Comparable inner-city bus service, plus some routes run 24 hours a day.
Hybrid Diesl ....NEOPLAN?
Bret, NEOPLAN dosent build buses anymore in the U.S.
Trolleybuses/trackless trolleys
Instead of diesel hybrid buses, I'd love to see more trolleybuses/trackless trolleys like on the 71, 72, and 73 lines. They are quiet AND clean! Of course there's an upfront cost of running overhead wire, but it's worth it!
trackless trolleys are only for rich, overeducated white people
...who can't deal with smelly, loud busses.
The People's Republic of Cambridge at work!
They could have used the existing catenary poles along the old E-line route to run new wires for trackless trolleys...but instead, they've actually been wasting time and money PULLING UP the old poles.
Watertown
isn't a poor town but I'd hesitate to call it 'rich' either.
And isnt Arlington richer
And isnt Arlington richer than Cambridge? The wires end near the border.