Perhaps it's time for local colleges to offer courses on how to ride the T
By adamg - 7/30/10 - 9:00 am
Consider this photo of a Berklee student on the Green Line by Brian Kane as proof.
Consider this photo of a Berklee student on the Green Line by Brian Kane as proof.
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Comments
The MBTA could do an outreach
The MBTA could do an outreach in September to get students to take off their backpacks. But there's only so much that can be done about drugged-up music students.
I don't understand what the
I don't understand what the point of keeping the backpack on when you're not walking. Why in the world do you want to carry something heavy when don't have to? Not to mention the fact that it makes you a target for sharp elbows.
Ever looked at the floor?
The T is way cleaner than it used to be, but that ain't saying much.
I also find it difficult to lift and re-shoulder or even carry a pack that I have put on the floor when it is time to get out of the train because there are too many jerks who simply won't move out of the way to make it possible to do so.
Of course the real answer is to not carry such a large pack. If I have to haul a lot of stuff, I save it for biking days. Or adjust my travel hours and break it into two or three bags.
Or...
You mean putting the backpack on while you're still on the train/bus? Why should the jerks move out of the way for you, when you can either wait for the crowd to thin out before putting on a backpack, or wait until you get off the train?
Wait, what? So it's easier
Wait, what? So it's easier for you to keep a stupid backpack on because people will make way for you more so than if you were to take it off? Ummm, no. And you're more concerned about the bottom of your backpack then being inconsiderate and dumb? Nice priorities.
I find it easier and more
I find it easier and more comfortable to take my pack off if I have it, place it between my legs, and then lift it and carry it off the bus/train with one hand where I can then reshoulder it once off the bus/train and not within hitting distance of people around me. I hate having to stand on a moving vehical with a huge bag on my back, never mind that I have chronic back and neck pain, which is my other motivation for getting it off my back on top of not wanting to slam people in the face with it. I even do this while hauling around a suitcase, since I am most likely to have my laptop pack on me while traveling for business. I do this in DC where it's generally crowded all the time. There are a lot of people riding the DC metro with packs and/or suitcases, and somehow I just don't see this issue down there as much. (Seat hoggers are another issue entirely!)
Have a walk on the wild side
If a couple of people were to walk over his guitar case he might get the message.
Pffft. Berklee kids...
...are the artsy version of Harvard kids.
Another Angle
Maybe it is time for the MBTA to acknowledge that people carry things like suitcases, guitars, bikes and folding bikes, large boxes, pets in kennels headed to the vet, etc. on the trains - as well as use strollers and wheelchairs - and provide some specific spaces for them like I have seen on other transit systems. Some Silver Line cars have the baggage clue at least, even if the blue line lacks.
That might also mean designing seats that fit an average size woman's hips or man's shoulders while wearing a coat. Dangerous thinking!
Or would that go against the absolute rule that nobody ever rides the T except to get to work and back at day shift hours with a small bag.
Plenty of room
Don't all buses and trains have places for wheelchairs? Most of the time they're unoccupied by wheelchairs. So that's a good place for luggage and stuff. That's where I either stand with my stuff, or slide it under the pop-up bench seat.
Just the Green Line
The other lines don't have dedicated wheelchair space.
No, the new Blue Line cars
No, the new Blue Line cars have dedicated wheelchair areas, and most if not all Red Line cars do too. I don't recall if the Orange Line does. Usually they're at the end of the train, alongside a lone seat.
The Red Line sure does have
The Red Line sure does have wheelchair spots.
As an Orange Line rider, then ...
I stand corrected about the Red and Blue.
The Orange Line definitely does not have dedicated wheelchair spaces, but that's probably because the cars are so old (like the older Red Line cars).
well, the "newer"
well, the "newer" silver-exterior 018xx trains do, at least.
This person should have held
This person should have held the case upright, but there is no question that she has every right to bring her cello or whatever on the T. A lot of people don't have cars. They don't ride the T as a hobby or because it is convenient sometimes. I occasionally have to carry big things on the T and will continue to do so whether you get all snitty about it or not.
Whit
case
You should have stopped at "this person should have held the case upright". That is correct, and that's the only part of your comment that has relevance here. Nobody is complaining about him/her actually bringing the instrument on the T. By leaving the case in the aisle, this kid is just begging for an expensive lesson in public transportation etiquette.
Actually, Jimmy, if you could
Actually, Jimmy, if you could be bothered to read the comments, you would see that people are in fact suggesting that carrying things on the T is somehow rude. Why don't you do that right now and get back to me if you have anything further to say?
Whit
1 person
No, I think you're misinterpreting things. The general tone here is that it's fine to carry large things on the T, as long as you keep said objects in your own personal halo (i.e., between your legs if standing, on your lap if sitting). If you can find a quote that actually suggests that it's rude to carry large things on the T, please quote it.
The biggest thing I've seen carried on the T, volume wise, are hockey bags...and even those can fit on your lap if stood upright. A string instrument like the one pictured above can easily be held upright. There's just no excuse for putting crap in the aisle. Not only is it inconsiderate, but it's dangerous.
Or is it just Orange that doesn't?
The newer Red Line cars do. Don't the new Blue Line ones? I've only been on them a few times and didn't make note of such things.
And maybe it's time for
And maybe it's time for riders to stop using the T as their personal U-Haul. If it can't fit on your lap or between your legs and you think taking it on the T at rush hour is cool, you need a smack.
... or maybe the MBTA could
... or maybe the MBTA could provide something resembling "scheduled" service? Maybe some carrying large bags/strollers/futons do try to avoid rush hour? But fail because the MBTA fails?
Today, C Line inbound, no trains for eons. Then an express skipped the stop, a completely full trolley opened all doors (no one could fit on), a third trolley captured most of the crowd, then a fourth trolley (a full 15 minutes after the first express blew by) arrived.
So, what was, by rights, a 12 minute commute from Brookline into Back Bay before rush hour became a disaster during rush hour.
You live in Brookline and
You live in Brookline and want sympathy for trying to bring a futon on the T? L O L
fut off
Don't blame that fail on the MBTA. That's all your own fail.
And maybe it's time for
You sadly, and obviously, missed my jab at the fail whales who actually do try to bring on everything but the kitchen sink. (My personal favorite are the pretentious Super Size Stroller douchebags though: double-wide, or triple long, with one of Satan's screaming imps seated inside; parents oblivious to their hellspawn's volume and how much room the 10-wheeled conveyance takes up. Pro-tip: if the stroller is as long as the T is wide, you might be a nutty granola bar.)
Let's be realistic though: some people who can't afford a cab, a Zipcar, a personal vehicle. And sometimes, they need to get around town with something bigger than a neon pink fanny pack. What would you have them do? Fucking walk?
It is PUBLIC transportation, for the good of all. I agree there's a lack of common courtesy by a subset of riders. It doesn't mean users should be denied carriage based on what they have to lug around the nation's antique-iest "subway." Holy crap, what if the MBTA employees paid attention to what was happening in their vehicles? Token pleas to "move to the center of the car" do nothing. They need to start holding trains at stops, speaking up to specific riders, and shaming people into finding a shred of civility for a few minutes.
Also, another one of my dumb ideas, but maybe the lazy ass "police" sitting on the Park Street sidewalk in their goddamn SUVs should ride the rails, providing both safety, decrease in fare evasion, and some tips on how to not be a douchebag? Aren't all the rethuglicans and t-baggers always yammering on about safety and security? That's right. They are, but don't mean it if one of their fat bastard union hack contributors has to actually do, you know, like some fucking WORK.
Boston. This town is just so ... fucking, Boston, you know? Hub of the universe? HA. It's the hub of itself. A giant, gaping, hairy, sucking rimmer in need of a lubejob made of bleach. Thus spoke jerkface.
*applause*
*applause*
And yet...
...you're still here.
... didn't "jerkface" pretty
... didn't "jerkface" pretty clearly state residency in Brookline? A municipality that has refused annexation to Boston for over 100 years?
Holy fucking goddamn shit, reading comprehension.
A distinction without a difference
But thanks for playing.
Ever visit another city
You know, where things are properly designed? I walked onto the light rail in Seattle at the airport and there was a "closet" sized space configured for hanging bikes by their front wheel, hanging a garment bag or a bunch of dry cleaning, or stowing suitcases. Nobody could stand there either - it was dedicated luggage space, right next to the door.
Sorry if you think it is all about commuting - it isn't. It is about transportation needs of people. Period. That includes groceries and babies and rolling carts of tools and newspaper racks and instruments people play professionally and boxes to go to the post office. You are stuck in 1975.
Ever consider as well that rush hour commuting on the T might not be so bad if the T didn't force people into very rigid schedules with buses that vanish after 9am and 6pm?
No, it really is about
No, it really is about commuting, without commuters the T would not exist. You are living on another planet if you think the mass transit system in Boston should be focused on the needs of the 1% of riders lugging groceries (srsly, WTF, no one takes groceries on the T), "newspaper racks" (again, huh?), "rolling carts of tools" (never seen a tradesman take the T w/ a "rolling cart"), buskers, and those going to the post office (no one does that either). Here is the person you are describing: http://www.denveater.com/.a/6a00e54f9787cc88330115708afb6c970c-300wi
Buses "vanish after 9am and 6pm"? Nope they don't, sorry. Took the 47 at 9:15 last night.
And six miles out of the city
You get buses that leave Sullivan Square, Wellington, and Davis cut down to one per hour, short routing, or disappearing all together.
I don't mind walking a half mile to the 94, but the 134 is gone by the time I consider the end of a reasonable rush hour.
In Seattle, Washington DC, Vancouver, Toronto, Chicago, Portland, NYC ... you can live without a car even if you are ten or more miles from the city center because the schedules and routes acknowledge that people need transportation for a variety of shifts and don't just own cars and take transit to get to work in the central city along extremely rigidly stereotyped pathways. If you can't get from Medford to the jobs in Kendall Square four miles away without taking three buses and wasting an hour and a half, someone isn't doing much serious thinking.
Notice how some of these cities have doubled in population in the last 20 years ... like, because you can get around them easily in the new "not employed for life" labor market?
I lived in DC for 7 years,
I lived in DC for 7 years, trust me you need a car.
Well, maybe you needed a car
My father didn't for the three years he was there. Nor do a couple of families that I know that work for EPA. Or a paralegal who transferred there for several years and banked the money she saved to buy a condo when she got back to Boston. When another friend moved to California, she was bummed that her family needed a second car.
Perhaps they didn't have zipcar when you were there? My dad also used to rent for super cheap out of Ronald Reagan National on the weekend if he wanted to do something specific or take my mom out into the country.
So, actually, I have some good data to work from here.
Large portions of DC (like
Large portions of DC (like Boston) are underserved by WMATA. When I lived uptown, the nearest metro stop was 2 miles away and buses only ran at rush hour. When I lived downtown I rode my bike mostly and drove the rest (groceries, etc). It's easy not to have a car when you live downtown and are super close to your office which is the situation you seem to be describing about your friends. My 1997 Ford is still kicking and I've saved tons too. And I still would NEVER EVER wear a backpack on the T or any subway, it's just plain MORONIC.
Zipcar was there along with the idiots who parked the car against my friend's stairs.
It's easy to live car free in
It's easy to live car free in Boston, and plenty of people do it. Does it occur to you that most folks in Medford have cars, and therefore more frequent off hour service isn't justified? There is plenty of frequent bus service in neighborhoods where large numbers use public transit.
What about reverse commuters?
Well, sorta. I live in Dorchester, and I can easily get to my summer job in Cambridge. But I work in Weston during the school year, and there's no way I can take the T to get there. There's no bus, and the earliest commuter rail gets to Weston at 7:57 -- but I need to be at work by 7:15. So I have no choice but to drive.
People who don't own cars do take groceries on the T
It is not unusual (I did avoid rush hour though when I lived on the green line). Plenty of people don't own cars in Boston so I'm not sure why it's so shocking to see people with stuff with them on the T.
Of all the things I think are wrong with the T, people wearing backpacks are not even on my radar. Even when said backpacks hit me. Now, people who refuse to move away from the doors so I can get in and out, that's another story.
So you'd rather get smacked
So you'd rather get smacked in the head with a 40 pound backpack then have to shove some jerk out of the doorway?
Carrying groceries on the cattle car
My apologies for contradicting your statement. I am both a commuter and regular user during off times. I do carry groceries on subways and buses, as well as books from the library, purchases from other stores and anything else that I need to carry. At the same time I also put into practice recognition that ultimately the T is about moving people, not things, and therefore respect the limits of space.
Nevertheless public transportation needs to accommodate all REASONABLE needs of its public. Whether as frequency, occurrence and comfort of the rides, need for carrying a reasonable quantity of objects that are essential to daily life (e.g., groceries). On the other hand we all have a responsibilities to recognize the necessary limits when utilizing a shared service.
However, the ideas of accommodation, reasonableness and responsibilities seem to be old fashioned 19th century concepts that are all sent to the back of the bus in favor of self-centered behaviors such as LOUD MP3 players, loud cell phone conversations and loud portable video games, etc.)
Add to that annoying loud announcements from the T's big brothers, PA system advertisements, noisy trains, poor air conditioning on many subway trains, delayed and expressed trains....
Is the T primarily a system for transportation or is the transportation component a means of corralling and training human beings to be nothing more than cattle awaiting their slaughter?
I don't know what Boston you
I don't know what Boston you live in, but everything you just said in that comment is mostly the opposite of everything I ever see. People do use the T to go shopping (and bring those items they bought back home), go to work with their tools of whatever trade it is they practice, and even the post office! What a concept! Commuters make up a sizable amount of the ridership, but the T serves everyone.
And as for buses... When I lived in Somerville and didn't have a car, bus service was fine if I was going to or from work at rush hour. If it wasn't rush hour, the bus ran hourly. Once an hour! That's as close to useless as you can get. Now that I live in Dorchester, there is exactly one (1) bus route that I would consider vaguely useful (and actually, I'd probably ride it all the time), but it stops running entirely at something like 7:30 or 8pm, making it beyond useless. If it's not the 1, 39, 66, or a small handful of other routes, the MBTA doesn't give a shit about buses.
Obviously people bring stuff
Obviously people bring stuff on the T. But isn't it a little ridiculous to carry large items on the T when it's crowded and then put it where it gets in everyone's way? Your view is you should be the outraged one when you have a guitar case lying in the aisle at rush hour and people give you grief for being insane?
Of course there are less buses at non-peak hours, because they have very few riders. So because they don't run as often as you like they are uselesss? Once an hour is useless? Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Once an hour sounds
Once an hour sounds reasonable? Think about that the next time you're stuck at Sullivan Station at 10:00 at night for 58 minutes because you just missed a bus. Walking may be an option during the day (when there are many buses) but at night I would never walk in any neighborhood around there, and I am sure other stations have similar issues.
And think about the frequency
And think about the frequency that the bus isn't on-time, then it's late and it drives by as out-of-service.
Yeah, I think "where they put it" is the issue
(That's what she said.)
I need a guitar to do my job, and I'll be damned if you tell me you'd rather I drive a giant SUV to transport it instead of taking the T when I can. But mine is in a similar small-profile gig bag to this one, which are lovely in that you can stick them between your legs (also what she said) while riding the T. When I take my work stuff on the T, it isn't taking up any more space than me-without-stuff if I'm in a seat, and negligibly more space than me-without-stuff if I'm standing. Most gig bags like that have backpack straps. If it's not a terribly long ride, it's comfortable enough to sit in the seat with the guitar still on my back.
For many people who depend on
For many people who depend on the T as their sole source of transportation, it is their "personal U-Haul" because they have no other alternative. I highly doubt that they think carrying large or heavy items on and off the T is "cool", they think of it as "how I get myself and my items from place to place".
Try being broke and not having a car for a few years, and then we'll see what comments you make.
Oh lord, now we all have to
Oh lord, now we all have to be subject to traveling hoarders because they are too dumb to think of alternatives. You can't make a plan ahead of time and call a friend with a car? You can't do it during the day so the rest of us don't have to deal with you? You can't splurge on a cab for once in your life? If ever there was a time to take a cab, I would think it would be when you're moving you're something big. If you're going to make the T your U-Haul then expect people to make it their trampoline and jump all over your stuff.
Try not being broke.
If ever there was a time to take a cab instead of the T?
That time would be when you need to arrive on-time.
Seriously, if you tried,
Seriously, if you tried, could you be more of a pill? I mean, really?
Some college students (including Berklee students who "splurge" on $30k p/year educations) actually are broke. The picture that prompted this thread is out of context. Was it taken at 5:30 PM outbound or 7:00 AM inbound? Was it a duece or a single? Was the rest of the train fairly empty or balls-to-backs?
Absent that information, you might wish to take your self-righteous indignation elsewhere.
Not every "hoarder" has an alternative. Not every "hoarder" has a friend with a car. Not every "hoarder" has the ability to take a goddamn cab. Some "hoarders" are Poors. And while you may loathe the very existence of "hoarders," I loathe the fact that you're even on the T.
Why don't you, with your fucking tight-ass ideas on what dumb people should be allowed to take on the T, fucking get a Driver? A guitar and a binder is not using the MBTA as a "uhaul" or "hoarding." The way this kid placed his shit was (perhaps) insensitive: again, absent the context of the circumstance, you're essentially claiming that that Poors shouldn't ride the T. The very opposite is true. Poors are the ones who benefit MOST from public transit.
For demonizing people using the MBTA as a sustainable, green, cost-efficient way to traverse Boston, speaking as a rider of the MBTA I say, go to bed, would you please?
Ha ha, you mad
Ha ha, you mad
Somebody's mama...
dropped them when they were little. Poor sm4269a, acting out because he can't ride the bus alone.
Don't make fun of arts
Don't make fun of arts students! Who else is going to pour coffee for my children or serve us fries on the way to a ski trip???
Anything wrong with that?
Or are you just an elitist.
My artsy son knows damn well that he needs to be able to support himself another way while developing a career in the arts. If he assembles your furniture or paints your house to do so, I guess that makes him a lesser person than someone who makes a lot of money being a drain on society in the banking system or hates a job that he or she is trapped in because of the need to show everyone how much money he can spend?
Oh please
Get a sense of humor, wouldya? This person wasn't saying there was something wrong, or dishonorable, or anything about those kids, and certainly not about your wonderfully artistic, good-looking, and well-above-average children. Thanks for bringing your kids up by the way. Oh, wait, we weren't talking about them, were we?
I think-- and this might be a reach here, but bear with me-- that the poster was talking about the absurdity of Berklee kids paying upwards of $30K a year just to get moderately good at some jazz licks, and to get really good at acting all entitled. There are some very talented people that come out of there, true, but a great many more who become insufferable retail clerks and coffee shop workers.
alas...
You shall get no response from lil Swirly, as your comment is reasonable, thoughtful, and makes sense....YOU ELITIST!!
Do you know anything about Berklee?
They purposely focus on teaching musicians to HAVE marketable skills. This is why there are degrees in music therapy, business, production, education, arranging, etc. so that people can use their musical talents and interests to have a solid career. Of course musicians know that most of us aren't going to make it as rock stars. Sure, the pool of Berklee grads has its share of annoying prima donna wannabe rock stars like anywhere else, but that really isn't the focus there.
(That being said, it even is possible for someone of modest talent to pay the bills as a performing musician. There've been times where my only job was performing-type musician, though this was doing classicalish stuff like weddings, playing in the pit for musicals, accompanying recitals, etc. I gave up the illusion of having any sort of career based solely on my own stuff when I was, like, 8. Except then I think I decided I was going to make a living as a philosopher, but we don't need to talk about that.)
Did you even read the comment?
The very first thing I said was "get a sense of humor." Get one, and we'll talk. Til then, piss off back to the burbs with your mediocre children.
Do you even read this forum?
I live on Fort Hill, sans minivan/picket fence/giant SUV stroller, dumbass.
Fort Hill, huh?
Is that your way of avoiding telling people that you live in Roxbury?
And my most sincere apologies for confusing you and Swirrly, though I'm sure other posters will understand the confusion.
Also, thanks for the synopsis of your failed artistic career. Scintillating. Breathtaking. I think you should expand that approach to other media-- just an idea.
I'm sure other posters will understand the confusion.
no, I don't dumbass.
Huh?
What do you mean, "You don't dumbass"? Is "dumbass" a verb now, too?
Most people know where Fort Hill is
If I say I live in Davis Square, would you say "is that your way of avoiding telling people you live in Somerville?"
No, it isn't
1. "Most people" don't know that Fort Hill is in Roxbury. "Most people," if you ask them, would assume that it has something to do with Fort Point.
2. The use of the term "Fort Hill" itself has grown in recent years, and there are some people who see the use of this as a crass move by realtors, yuppies, etc. to avoid denoting that it's in Roxbury. I didn't make this up, and I have no opinion on what it should be called; I'm just reporting on what I've heard and the reactions that some people have A typical comment is that the expanding use of the term is a deliberate effort to make it seem, well, less "Roxburyish;" those making this comment have tended to take a dim view of the practice. Eeka or Swirrly or whoever it was seemed to think there's some kind of hipster Williamsburg-esque street cred to calling it Fort Hill; I chose to comment on that. Well, I guess after the Mish and JP had already been ruined, new frontiers were needed...
3. If you live in Davis Square, there's a good chance you follow that up with "...but it's very close to Cambridge." Which is pretty much what I'm talking about here-- people want to puff up where they live somehow, either by associating it with something better, or perceived to be better, or by distancing it from something which is perceived to be negative. I don't mean you personally, Ron, but if you don't think there are lots and lots of people who frequently say that about Davis, or about any part of Somerville that's within a mile of the Cambridge line, then, well, you're either not listening or you don't live here.
The fuck?
Eeka or Swirrly or whoever it was seemed to think there's some kind of hipster Williamsburg-esque street cred to calling it Fort Hill; I chose to comment on that. Well, I guess after the Mish and JP had already been ruined, new frontiers were needed...
The fuck? You can't keep posters OR neighborhoods straight, apparently. There's a fort on top of the hill here, and all the people who've been here for generations call it Fort Hill and/or Highland Park. Roxbury is a large neighborhood with sections that are quite different in landscape from one another, hence many of us saying whether we live in Dudley, Grove Hall, Fort Hill, Mission Hill, etc.
Also
If you're wanting to join into the forum, how about you introduce yourself? Tell us your name or at least a pseudonym we can call you, and tell us about where you live, where you work, what you're into, etc. Unless you're just wanting to hang around and gentrify the forum without actually getting to know your neighbors.
(BTW, I really just say I live in Roxbury to avoid saying I live in Boston. Or Massachusetts.)
Is it the price of admission to give my autobiography?
No? Then I won't do it. Also, I don't write for free-- sorry. Anon'll do just fine.
(And by the way, I can think of a really simple solution for you to avoid having to say you live in the fair city of Boston, or the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts-- _and_ you can do it without making up cutesy names for where you live, or have to be ashamed of where you live. I'll even pay your tolls on the Pike!)
I smell bad.
And I'm dumb.
Criticism is fine, but I'd
Criticism is fine, but I'd say keep the personal attacks out of it.
I watch Two and a Half Men
And not just the new episodes, but every minute it's on in syndication. I cherish Charlie Sheen's entire catalog of situational comedic performance. Oh, and I flatulate on public transportation when the brakes squeal.
Could be the other way round these days
People who live across the line in North Cambridge are likely to say they live in or near Davis Square if they're within reasonable walking distance of it.
Conversely, people who live in Somerville but are a short walk from Porter Square are likely to identify their neighborhood as Porter Square.
Any chance that you'd address my point?
Or at least concede that I have one, whether or not you agree with it? Your tactic here seems to be to ignore the points I make, while throwing in your own bit of local knowledge-- which I was already aware of, having spent a brief time in exile up that way.
I'll concede here-- in the interests of setting a good example, etiquette-wise-- that your examples are useful information, and I have in fact heard them just the way you describe it. However, would you also agree, generally, that people tend to fudge the name or borders of given neighborhoods for the reasons I describe above? Also, and more specifically, do you not find that many Somerville residents say "...but it's close to Cambridge," particularly if they're more recent arrivals? I'm not saying that the reverse isn't also sometimes true, it just seems far more common for those with a Somerville address to mention its proximity to Cambridge rather than the reverse.
"having spent a brief time in exile up that way"
Exiled to Boston -- for a while -- and you come here to "correct" long-time residents?
Curious.
Nope
Briefly exiled to Somerville from the better side of the river. Back now.
"Close to Cambridge"
I think they say that because there is a lot of stuff to do in Cambridge, not because Cambridge is "better". I mean, is Cambridge really "better" than Somerville anyway?
Although I would agree that many people might not want to admit that they live in the big bad hood of Roxbury, but Eeka has stated that she has lived there in the past, and wasn't her arguement about not being from the suburbs anyway? I mean, if she wanted to prove that she wasn't from some soft part of town, she would have just said she lived in Roxbury.
I dunno.
having lived in somerville...
... i can honestly say that in the 14 years that i resided there, i can't remember a single resident who declared their address by relating it's proximity to cambridge. most of us lived there because we didn't want to live in cambridge or boston.
there's a lot of somerville pride.
Where Somerville residents say they live
The ones I know, both old-timers and relative newcomers, identify themselves as living in Teele Square, Davis Square, Powderhouse, Porter Square*, Ball Square, Magoun Square, Winter Hill, Spring Hill, Prospect Hill, Union Square, Inman Square*, Ten Hills, or East Somerville. All of these are useful descriptive terms and nobody is ashamed to live in any of these places.
* Yes these two are Cambridge squares but the Somerville city line is a few hundred feet from them. Some of the East Somerville folks might say they lived near Sullivan Square if Sullivan wasn't such a completely ugly pit.
Recent years
Sounds like you've got a lot to learn about "recent years," sonny. Davis Square? That is recent years. Davis Square as you know it (full of restaurants, hipsters, and overpriced condos) didn't exist until after the Red Line went in in 1984 - recent history to some of us. You wouldn't likely have heard the term "Davis Square" passing the lips of anybody you knew back then - it was just the depressed hinterlands of Slummerville; nobody who didn't live there had a name for it.
Fort Hill, on the other hand, was always a convenient term to describe that part of Roxbury that had a fort and is on a hill, both of which were there well before anybody even slapped up a shack in what is now Davis Square. It's one of the few bits of land that was already there on Roxbury Neck in revolutionary times. The fancy water tower up there is visible for miles. What's that up there? It's Fort Hill. It's a distinct piece of land by nature - literally, it stands out, so having its own name is inevitable. It's the same name it's had for centuries, and most people who hear the name know it's in Roxbury.
As a real estate destination for hipster Williamsburg-esque street cred? You might find you're the only person who imagines this. There are plenty of hipsters to be seen around the Boston area, and if you were looking for some, Fort Hill would come in very low on your list of destinations. Real estate flacks will come up with any fantasy they can to try and make their properties sound cool. (Introducing Hyde Square Commons, JP’s best new address!) Don't believe the hype.
Know your history. Know your rights.
Davis Square was declared a square in the late 19th century-- before the T was extended out there, it wasn't as if the area was some primordial jungle. And according to some quick Web research-- you should try it's fun, and some of it's even accurate-- the official squaring of Davis came just a few years after the water tower was built on Fort Hill. So, your assertion that the Davis Square area was off the edge of the known universe while Fort Hill was a bustling metropolis is just dumb. We're not talking about 1984 vs. late 19th century; we're talking late 19th century vs. a different part of the late 19th century. So, unless you know someone who is 150+ years old, from Fort Hill, and remembers when Davis was first officially named Davis, the "history" here, at least on a human scale, isn't relevant.
And yes, I'm aware that it was called "Fort Hill" by locals because of the fort that was once there, and the tower that's there now, but given that Somerville was first settled at pretty much the same time as Boston, and that the fort in question is from the Revolutionary War, it would be a mistake to say that Fort Hill was called that before any European eyes had feasted on the glories of what would become Davis. Again, yeah, it might have been called Fort Hill before Davis was called that, but it wasn't called that before there were Europeans in Davis. Big difference; again, know your history here.
"It's the same name it's had for centuries, and most people who hear the name know it's in Roxbury."-- well, a couple of centuries, maybe, but even then there would have been some confusion with the other Fort Hill, which was-- wait for it-- downtown, near Fort Point. And I stand by my assertion that "most people" know that it's Fort Hill. If you're from there, yeah, but if not, it's not on the same level of name recognition as many other names. It's a name that locals know, but it's a name that loses its meaning, in terms of people being able to place it, before you even reach the borders of the city of Boston. As you put it, "nobody who didn't live there had a name for it"-- my point exactly.
I'm glad you did some research
You probably know twice as much now as you did before about Boston.
Have you learned yet what century the American Revolution happened in? You know, the one the fort was for? Keep googling.
All the hyperbole and straw men in the world won't save you from the simple fact that you wrote absurd, made-up nonsense re Fort Hill. You came here to attack someone you don't know, using a severe lack of local knowledge, and you failed abysmally.
But don't let me stop you. It's funny every time.
eeka and sock puppet, sittin' in a tree...
Do you read anything, or just skim it and leave out the bits that prove you wrong? Davis Square had Europeans in it before the Revolution. Davis wasn't called that then, but your point-- which was wrong-- was that the name Fort Hill predated "even a shack" being put up in what would one day be Davis. I thought I'd clarified that sufficiently, even for you, but I guess if you're not going to pay attention in class, you end up failing. Ya failure.
Keep at it
At the time of the revolution, only about 500 people lived in the entirety of Somerville, most near Union Square. West Somerville was largely uninhabited and mostly pasture, as settlement was based in Union Square and around the rivers. There was an unpaved road passing by what is now Davis Square, going from Harvard to the Powder House mill, but likely little more; at the time of Somerville's incorporation in 1842, there were only 200 houses - no stores, no pubs - in the whole of the town.
The first documented house in Davis Square was circa 1800, and the Davis for whom the square is named only moved there in 1850. Most of what is now Davis Square was part of his ten-acre estate. As a neighborhood, it didn't really come about until the late 19th century.
So really, it is more than likely that not even a shack was at Davis Square at the time of Fort Hill getting its name.
Was there another point you thought you had proved?
You're a smart guy
You ought to be a history professor somewhere. What? You're not? You're giving it away for free? Damn, that must suck.
Yeah it sucks...
Almost as bad as being dragged off to the woodshed when your glib statements of "fact" get smacked down.
Just think if it had been a picture of Berklee student buying a condo on Fort Hill, putting up a big sign that "Welcome to Not Roxbury." This thread would go on for months!
and by the way...
...all I said was what some locals told me, but obviously we talk to different people. Mine use facts and complete sentences.
One reason you might have heard "Davis Square" in the 1970s
It was the home of very famous Steve's Ice Cream, which drew long lines of visitors from all over Greater Boston and beyond.
What Ron said
Was being more specific.
What Ron said
Was missing my point. I'll try it again: Some people who call it Fort Hill are believed to be doing so because they want to create some cachet, or at least avoid the negative cachet of something else. I'd never heard it used in the "I'm a hipster pioneer!" way, but I guess Fort Hill was next after Fort Point, the South End, etc.-- the gentrification army had to go and ruin something else.
When people say "Davis Square" they are talking about a well-known neighborhood-- far more well-known than Fort Hill, and not just among enlightened UH users. They're also making a clear and useful distinction between that and other neighborhoods in what is a distinct community. Roxbury is not a separate city, and it already has several established and clear terms for neighborhoods and business districts. Maybe "Fort Hill" always has been a locally-used term, but please, saying that it's as widely used as "Davis Square" is like saying Packard's Corner is as widely-used a term as the North End.
Finally, and for extra credit, while I have no opinion or sense of history as to whether the expanded use of the term is some kind of yuppie/Realtor conspiracy, but there are those who do know the history, and their opinion is that yes, it does suck. You should maybe try stepping out and talking to some of your neighbors, the ones you haven't gentrified out already.
Since you obviously don't live here
My neighbors who've been here 30 or 40 years do call it Fort Hill and/or Highland Park. As do the cops and city hall and pretty much anyone else. I don't give a rat's ass if some anon on UHub knows where my neighborhood is or the history of it.
"I don't give a rat's ass" etc.
Yeah? Then why are you responding so angrily?
Mimimimimimi
Aw, Johnny Suburban Whitebread read something in the Herald and now he's using it! Isn't he clever. As a former Fort Hill resident, I can tell you that no one was trying to separate themselves from Roxbury. Our T station was Roxbury Crossing, our park's walls were made of Roxbury puddingstone and our neighborhood was part of a Roxbury historic district. As anyone who's enjoyed a late-night drag on the benches beneath the water tower can attest, there's no separation between Roxbury and Fort Hill. It's just a bunch of people up there doing what they do and getting along. Maybe it's not like that in the malls and Applebees of IGotMineSoFUTown, but Fort Hill, Highland Park, Mission Hill and Grove Hall take pride in their neighborhoods and don't need anonymous pundits telling us who's selling out whom.
To tell you the truth, oldtimer,
I actually do live in the city, for more than half my life now. (You're right about the suburban whitebread thing, though-- sue me, my parents chose to live there). When did you flee the city, by the way? Whenever it was, reading comprehension must have been bad then, too, because at no point above do you see me criticizing any oldtime/longtime residents. Reread it; I didn't, and I'm not now. I was just talking about the expansion of the use of the term by people who are seen as newcomers/gentrifiers. I didn't make this up, and I have no opinion about the neighborhood or what it was like then vs. how it is now; I was merely commenting on what I saw as an example of a type of dishonesty. Sorry, too subtle for you I guess, but that's how it is.
Wait, what?
So it's OK for long-term residents to call Fort Hill Fort Hill, but everyone else has to call it Roxbury without a neighborhood designation? When do newcomers become long-termers so that we can make sure everyone is using their allowed terms?
Ha
Good Will Hunting quote. Terrific!
I'm from Roxbury the 'Bury but not the fruit y'all
I'm from Roxbury the 'Bury but not the fruit y'all
Don't make me act like where I come from cause it's bru tal. . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrdzedMx1rk
Summer student
Using instrument case and empty window seat as Personal Perimeter Protector. Writing song in head about rude Bostonians.
ETA: It's evident "Don't make fun of arts students" was intended as sarcasm. Big guns not required.
Oh my god I can't can't can't
Oh my god I can't can't can't stand Berklee students. Trying to walk down the Berklee stretch of Mass Ave. past all the useless students clogging up the sidewalk, smoking cigarettes, and talking pretentiously about whatever useless "project" they're working on (that will, of course, never have any revelance beyond the grade their teacher gives them) is torturous. I really don't understand how that school can con so many medicore talents to shell out big bucks and take out massive loans when the only prospects for these guitar-toting dolts are open mic nights at the pub down the street. (I'm not trying to be elitist, but their self-importance just riles me up.)
Don't worry, at the rate the
Don't worry, at the rate the hipster 'musicians'/'artists' are draining their trust funds and not attempting to make a real living their offspring will never have the opportunity to pull the same shit their parents did. After a generation, the stupidity will be culled by pure economics. This of course assuming some well meaning fool doesn't blindly subsidize bad art or music without first verifying talent.
D.C.? are you kidding me?
sure, the Metro in DC is just fine.... if you like to gamble with your life. How many people were killed in that collision last year?
Accidents
How many people are killed weekly on America's roadways?
more than nine.
more than nine.
nine.
nine.
See my comment above
You're noticing a small, loud, annoying contingent of Berklee students. The focus there is actually on turning one's music into marketable skills. The music therapy students and music business students aren't (generally) walking around like they own the city and telling you how famous they're going to be. They're interning and taking boards and applying for jobs and things.
Boston/MBTA is too small.
That's all there is to it. This city and the transit system is just not meant to handle the amount of people that are living/working in the area now. Don't think I am siding with the T please, there are probably a few things they could/should do to make it more convenient for some (as mentioned below by Swirly and others) but, they can only do so much with what they have to work with. Face it, we are stuck with the oldest subway in the country and a small city who's narrow streets were built upon cow-paths.
I tend to be sympathetic
I tend to be sympathetic toward this point of view, but there are some qualifications. We may have more downtown employment during 9 to 5, as Boston has made a near complete conversion from manufacturing to service sector, but historically the population has been much higher. The current 645,000 is about 200,000 bellow the peak. Add to that the much higher prevalence of car ownership, and it's not clear that we are placing a greater demand on the MBTA than was placed on the MTA or BERY (predecessor agencies).
As for the point about age and complexity, that is definitely true for the Green Line. But the other lines are much more modern, especially the Orange Line. They should be able to handle some modifications to satisfy changing service demands.
That said, considering context, I think the 'T does a pretty amazing job moving huge numbers of people during peak demand.
Well, most streets here are
Well, most streets here are not cow paths. The streets in Boston were usually laid out according to some sort of logic, accounting for geography. It's just that a lot of that was done centuries ago, and the things the roads led to, and the geography have changed a lot, and urban development has rearranged parts of the earlier pattern as well.
It would be a lot easier to
It would be a lot easier to stow bags on the Green Line if the Type 7 cars' seats didn't have those annoying metal boxes under them. It would also be a lot more comfortable to be able to put your feet under the seat in front.
The interior design of the Type 8s is so screwed up that nothing can fix it.
I'm constantly amazed by the
I'm constantly amazed by the total obliviousness that lots of people have to their surroundings. As well as the sense of entitlement that the rest of the world should bend to accomodate their desires. Someone mentioned strollers, I once saw some idiot try to push a double wide stroller down Hanover street on a saturday night. You've got to be kidding me. If you've decided to buy a double wide stroller for your kids then you need to accept that one of the things you sacrifice is going to crowded places with those kids. It's common courtesy. On the T people need to be responsible and try and take up as little space as they can. This may just be my committed urbanist bias speaking but I think one problem is that there's such a large turnover in Boston with new people constantly coming in from the suburbs. And in the suburbs everyone moves around by car so if you want to take your cello with you or your stroller or whatever it's no problem and some people don't think at all about it.
What really drives me apeshit in the people who won't move into the T. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people packed like sardines in the front of the train and then the back half has no one in it. All because some folks can't figure out to say "excuse me" and move past people deeper into the train.
It's a mighty long way
down the Green Line trail
and the sun shines not on the cold steel rails
and I look like a bum and take space like a whale
all the way from Berklee.
Maybe this was a sneaky Boston Conservatory student who has an axe to grind with Berklee and carries the book around with him, like James Michael himself calling at 3 a.m. to ask for votes for his opponents, or the Burger King workers I've seen throwing McDonald's trash all over Back Bay.
When I got home I logged
When I got home I logged on
Universal Hub
And there was my guitar -- acoustic junk.
Some post said, "Berklee students, they're all the same,
No Green Line etiquette"
I felt so ashamed!
Hats off to Geno and Mott the Hoople
A video of one junk food
A video of one junk food chain throwing another junk food chain's trash around would be big.
Filthy place to put a guitar.
Filthy place to put a guitar.