Why Manny DaVeiga was carrying a gun
Bobby Constantino considers the death of Manny DaVeiga while being chased by police:
... Getting stopped by police when you have done nothing wrong and because you live in a poor neighborhood and are not white is a humiliating and frustrating experience. When it happens over and over again, it leads to a dangerous breakdown of trust and anger in communities subjected to it. This is why Henry Louis Gates was so angry when police came to his house and arrested him. And it is why most white people didn't understand what he was so mad about: they don't get stopped and frisked.
Manny DaVeiga was grieving for a friend he recently lost at a makeshift memorial. He was carrying a gun because the same people that killed his friend would have killed him if they saw him outside. This does not justify his carrying a gun, or any of the many bad decisions he made. But it was why he was carrying it. As soon as he saw police officers coming towards him, he knew he was getting frisked. Even if the police were not investigating a shooting, he knew he was getting frisked. Just as he and his friends always are, regardless of whether or not they have given police reasonable suspicion as required by the Constitution. And he knew that once he got frisked, he was going to jail for at least 18 months for carrying a gun. So he ran. He wanted to stay and properly mourn his friend, but he couldn't. So he ran. And the rest is under investigation. ...
Comments
Gates lives in a poor
Gates lives in a poor neighborhood? I thought he lived in university housing.
no
But mainly getting stopped by police when you have done nothing wrong is a humiliating and frustrating experience.
According to court records,
According to court records, DaVeiga had a long history of mental illness. Last May, several months after he was arrested for assault and battery on a police officer, he was admitted to Bridgewater State Hospital for evaluation. DaVeiga was often depressed, self-medicated with marijuana and alcohol, and said he had hallucinations — he complained of seeing hockey pucks fly at him, according to a June 2009 report written by a hospital psychologist. At 13, he said, he stabbed his brother because voices in his head told him to, the 33-page report stated.
He underwent psychiatric evaluations several times as a teenager and was diagnosed with several conditions, including bipolar disorder and posttraumatic stress syndrome.
But the psychologist concluded that as long as DaVeiga kept taking his medications, he was not dangerous and did not need to be committed to a psychiatric hospital. After his encounter with police last Wednesday, he was released on $300 bail, according to court records. Three days later, he was dead.
That didn't answer the
That didn't answer the question about where Gates lives.
Anyway, I was the one who asked it, and I'll ask this too, completely snark free. I'm honestly curious.
I'm white, male, and I've been stopped by the police plenty in the last 10 years (my early 20s into early 30s). I've been asked to open my backpack, I've even had to raise my hands for a frisk. Why don't I have a problem with this?
The Guy Who Carried the Gun that Killed His Friend
Was he doing nothing wrong too? Had the police approached him before that murder, and had he run, and had he been chased and frisked and deprived of the future murder weapon, would there also be outrage on his behalf? By keeping Manny DaVeiga's friend alive, and by allowing DaVeiga himself to stay at home in Quincy on the night before Easter instead of forcing him to travel to Navillus Terrace with his own gun, and by potentially reducing the body count of young Cape Verdean men in Boston by two, would the cops actually have earned Bobby Constantino's ire?
This sort of thing tells police, "Don't bother. Let young men kill each other. You will be second-guessed and accused of malfeasance for doing what's been asked of you in trying to stop mindless bloodshed. The gunmen who terrorize their neighborhoods are okay. No one will denounce them unless they kill a little kid by accident, and even then they're just doing what they have to do before someone shoots them first. Sure, maybe they're making bad decisions, but you're humiliating and frustrating them."
and....
..it happened to Gates "again and again", apparently.
i don't think so
after last summer, they stopped arresting him in his own home for breaking and entering.
Headline reads "Why Manny
Headline reads "Why Manny DaVeiga was carrying a gun", as if this were fact. DaVeiga may have also been carrying a gun because he had a history of violence against members of his own community and was responsible for many of the recent shootings in the same community. The police approached a person they knew to be involved in recent violence, as is their job. He opens fire on them and then, as numerous independent witnesses report, and takes his own life. He was carrying the gun because he was a predator, not some poor kid who had been robbed repeatedly and was sick of getting his wallet and sneakers taken. People, cops included, arm themselves to protect themselves against persons such as Manny DaVeiga. There are definitely instances where the police are wrong or unjustified in their actions, but certainly not in this case.
GET REAL!!!!!!!!! HE WOULD
GET REAL!!!!!!!!! HE WOULD GET FRISKED BECAUSE WHY? BECAUSE HE DID A GUN. HE WOULD GET 18 MONTH JAIL ,THAT IS A LIE. NOBODY GO TO JAIL FOR 18 MONTH FOR A GUN, MORE LIES.
Or was he ready to avenge his friend's death?
I don't know, but just as Constantino speculates "He was carrying a gun because the same people that killed his friend would have killed him if they saw him outside," we could speculate that he might be carrying a gun so he could kill those who killed his friend. The speculation cuts both ways.
It is not strange for police to ask someone if they know about a crime. It's part of how they get solved. The alternative is to not have police go there at all, which is not a solution. It is absolutely tragic that this kid died. No question. And it must be humiliating to be frisked. Also no question. But if he fired on police as he ran away, there is also no question that police would have to respond.
Am I missing something here?
This kid is visiting the scene of a gang members murder. He and his crew fit the description of gang members. Police attempt to question them and he runs BECAUSE HE HAS A GUN. I live close enough to that neighborhood to be happy that the Police were making efforts to question he and his friends. They were after all...CARRYING GUNS. Keep blamming the police and apologizing for these animals. Makes perfect sense.
the makeshift memorial he was
the makeshift memorial he was visiting was a member or a gang bang. You live in dorchester, your apart of the reasons why people things go unsolved in this neighborhood because you dont tell what you see.
He was carrying a gun because
Sounds like a great justification for carrying a gun to me, actually...
actually
"because you live in a poor neighborhood and are not white"
White people have a high risk of getting frisked in non-white neighborhoods. Probably about the same ratio as non-whites in white neighborhoods.
Really?
My perceived race is white, and I've lived in a predominantly racial minority neighborhood for the past five years. I've also worked for the past 10 years in human services, spending my working hours largely in housing projects and neighborhoods that are the home of low-income racial minorities.
I've been approached by the police three times in my life. Twice for speeding on the highway, once in a middle-class largely white area of the city for having no inspection sticker on my day-old car. I've never been approached while walking.
I might also mention that a considerable amount of the time when I'm walking around in Mattapan and Roxbury, I have a guitar case on my back and/or am carrying a big hockey bag with assessment materials inside. Plenty of legitimate reasons to stop me and ask me what I'm up to.
I should have said white males and black males.
Im going to say the frisk/search ratio based on gender would be about 99/1 (male/female). And I don't think carrying a guitar case or hockey bag are reasons to stop anyone.
But overall this is a tough subject for the police to deal with. You have to articulate your reasons to frisk someone. A lot of gray areas there.
"You have to articulate your reasons to frisk someone. "
What's the standard required to search a "suspect"?
Depends on where you are (home, car, street, walking)
And lots of other factors (search incident to arrest, inventory search etc).
But for someone on the street you need probable cause that a crime was or will be committed and that the search is carried out in a reasonable manner.
Then there are other factors as well. But for the most part searches have to go in this order.
-warrant
-consent
-exigent circumstances
-warrant exceptions.
probable cause that a crime was or will be committed
Probable cause is defined as (1) facts or evidence supporting a (2) reasonable belief that a crime (3) has been, is being, or is going to be committed.
Police officers must establish probable cause in order to lawfully make an arrest, obtain a warrant for an arrest, conduct a search of someone's person, or search and seize someone's property.
When the police stop a person on the street becuase they have a bulge in their pocket, is that "probable cause"? What if is he is a known gang member? has a prior criminal record-shoplifting? prior criminal record-speeding? prior criminal record-armed robbery?
Not exactly.
You don't need probable cause to "stop" someone on the street, you need "reasonable suspicion". And yes, those factors you mention (prior criminal history, reputation, resembling a criminal, proximity to an actual crime scene, time of day, high crime area, etc) are all factors that can lead to "reasonable suspicion".
You need probable cause to search someone (in warrant exception cases).
"Resembling a criminal", etc seems
so subjective as to render constitutional protections practically meaningless, IMO. An acquaintance of mine was stopped and frisked recently because he supposedly looked like a guy they were looking for. He was working at the time- he's also an African-American man. I don't know what the answer is- but I think I might be pissed to be frisked or detained if I had done nothing wrong. And if it happened more than once I'd probably want to punch someone.
yea thats a tough one too.
And its not just "resembling" any criminal. Its resembling someone that just committed a crime. So if someone saw someone commit a crime and they were wearing a green hooded sweatshirt, and had dreadlocks, police probably should stop a guy that has a hooded sweatshirt and dreadlocks to ask him some questions.
Not a science though and its very tough.
THE NUMBERS
Hi Pete,
If you go to the actual post, there are some statistics from the last five years in New York City. They show that in terms of numbers whites are not frisked nearly as often as other races. Of the 2.8 million people that were stopped and frisked there in the last five years, over 81 percent were black or Hispanic. Over 88 percent had done nothing wrong and no weapons or contraband were found on them.
Based on my experiences here in Boston, I would say about the same holds true. This doesn't mean the police aren't doing a great job, or that the work they do is not important, or that stops and frisks don't get weapons or contraband off the street 12 percent of the time. It simply means that in terms of numbers aggressive stop and frisk practices are doing more harm than good if the cost is losing the trust of the community.
BC
You are right bobby C.
Thats why I said its a very gray area. Without any stop and frisks, that 12% would be 0%. And that 0% would raise the murder rate and crime rate.
Although I don't beleive stop and frisk stats are even kept in Boston, most stop and frisk situations are involved when weapons, not contraband. I would like to see the stats of pat and frisk for people who have criminal records or are known felons. And lets not forget that most of the gang gun violence in Boston and New York are going to involve Blacks and Latinos. So naturally the frisk rate is going to be higher for those groups.
And the police are never going to win trust in the community as long as there is gang violence. You could not stop and frisk anyone, and the residents would complain that the cops don't do anything. Or you can have good stop and frisk policies and procedures, and the community will still complain. And you can be more aggressive and the gang problem still wont go away.
But you make a good point. This kid was kind of in a Catch 22. Carry a gun and risk going to jail, or dont carry a gun and risk getting killed by gang members. The worst part of this whole thing is that the kid had mental issues in the first place. He should have never been in this situation. If I were his parents, I would move out of Boston. Id go anywhere. But if you know these gangmembers like I knew them. We are not talking about good people here. We are talking about people who were brought into this world with 0 guidance. They never had a chance.
buyin' that load 'o crap?
He was carrying a gun to protect himself from another gang but it turns out he should have been carrying it to protect himself from the police. Suicide? Who's buyin' that load 'o crap?
Why would the police make that up?
The police said they shot at the kid anyway right? Why make up the part that the kid killed himself? Why not just say the cops shot him when the kid fired at the cops? Or why make up the shooting part at all? Why not just say the cops didn't shoot at anyone and the kid just killed himself?
Wow.
the diff between suicude and unjustified manslaghter is about 20
years.
math class.
Whats the difference between suicide and justified manslaughter?
Q: Why would the police make that up?
A: The diff between suicide and unjustified manslaghter is about 20
ah ok gotya.
The cops knew they were wrong so they took the kids gun (or planted on one him) and made it look like a suicide. That way they wouldn't have to do 20 years in prison. I see where you are coming from now.
But why even identify yourself as a cop? Why not just ride in an unmarked car and just take him out like a driveby? That would be much easier to cover up.
This Community Trusts Its Police - To Protect Us
I live a few blocks from Navillus Terrace, and I'm fine with a proactive pat & frisk policy on the part of the police, or any other action that will keep its law-abiding, hard-working, child-rearing residents safe from people like Manny DaVeiga. I am an older white woman, and I've been stopped by police three times in this neighborhood because I drive a sports car. Am I irate? Nope.
Am I getting stopped because I'm white? Because I'm a woman? Because I'm old? Unlikely. The cops are doing their job, that's all.
Get real. You think if the cops don't do pats & frisks on known perps, that crime in this neighborhood will go DOWN because then the drug dealers and gangsters would come to trust the police?? Anyone who believes that, the last train to Nevah-Nevah Land is depahtin' from Platform Two.
We, the tax-paying, two-job-working, early-rising, bus-catching citizens of Dorchester are the ones who are forgotten in the wah-wah for poor old Manny who was packing unlisted heat, decided to draw on a pack of law enforcement professionals, and got what you get in those circumstances.
Don't get me STAH-tid.
. This does not justify his
The End.
under the law, nothing more
The consequence for carrying an illegal gun in our country of laws is a jail sentence. This is the consequence given the concept of equal protection under the law, nothing more.
Running from the police is a really bad idea. There are specific statutes which can be used to prosecute a person suspected of evading arrest or failure to comply with a lawful order, nothing more.
And then there is running and shooting back at the police
Then you can add in a few more factors.
Navillus Terrace Shooting
The subject of this blog was a criminal. He was 'known to police'. He had a criminal record. He was carrying a gun. As any criminal knows that when the police see you in certain high crime areas, associating with other criminals, they will question you. Additionally, with the interview comes a pat down search.
He pulled a handgun on the police and pointed it at them. He then proceeded to exchange fire with the police. For some reason only known to him, he committed suicide.
Now comes the second guessing. Now comes the blaming the police. Enough. The criminal element is based and lives in the neighborhoods where this crap takes place. At some point, the blame should be placed with the parent(s). I know all about the 'cycle of poverty', the broken homes and all the other sorry excuses. Own up to the actions of your own and address them. Stop blaming everyone else. These are your troubles.
Maybe; maybe not. Who knows?
Neither you nor I were there, and neither one of us can prove that the cops didn't kill him and then fake his suicide. We don't have all the facts.
Ain't that right, Pete?
Thats true Jay.
We can only go on what we think happend here (and what ballistic evidence and eye witness accounts tell us). Then again, the eyewitnesses could all be lying too. Maybe we never landed on the moon either?
one thing is clear
the deceased is not blaming anyone else for anything. Now is the time for the law to speak for the dead.
or eye witnesses.
You always love to leave those people out.
an eyewitness
is one piece of evidence, and they are notoriously unreliable as you know. It takes independent evidence to corroborate an eyewitness.
True.
But we don't live in Orwell's 1984 here where the government can see everything that everyone does.
Independent evidence is not always there.
And they are only unrealible in certain situations. Many situations they are very reliable. If they saw this kid put the gun to his head and shoot, thats pretty easy to see. If this kid shot at the cops and ran off, and the witness had to identify the kid a week later by face pictures only, that is much less reliable. But this realibility has nothing to do with lying versus telling the truth. Thats a different issue in itslef.
Manny Daviega
how can you keep making excuses for these people who insist on breaking the law. Unlicensed guns and gang activity is the reason he had a gun. Why doesn't the community id those who have the guns instead of remaining silent! The police need the assistance from the community to make it safe for ALL. Silence in the community makes them complicit for the unlawful activity in the community. There are plenty of ways for the community to report the guns and activity and not get identified. Wake UP.
he broke the law
so deserved to die
.... as Constantino
.... as Constantino speculates "He was carrying a gun because the same people that killed his friend would have killed him if they saw him outside." That's exactly one of the arguments that the NRA makes for carrying firearms. It's a dangerous world out there and you need to be able to protect yourself. The other reason for carrying firearms is that it may be (courts to rule) a civil liberty protected by the Constitution.
It looks like there may be a new alliance forming over gun rights... rural conservative NRA hunting types skeptical of the police as agents of the State, and liberal urban dwellers skeptical of police as agents of the oppressor class.... who'd have guessed.
boo hoo
Sometime soon, hopefully in my lifetime, we will see personal responsibility recognized and accepted as the primary cure of many of society's ills. Farrakhan (and much of liberal academia) blames slavery for the break up/destruction of the black family; makes sense to me. But if this is true, why doesn't black America and its very vocal leaders do everything in their power to discourage illegitimacy? The fate of the "minority" community rests in their own hands. The home (singular) is in trouble when there's no strong, stable, loving male but when this scenario is repeated in over 80% of "minority" families, the entire community is doomed.. Thirteen year olds are NOT supposed to bring children into the world. Fifteen year olds are not equipped to be capable parents. Great-grandmomma should be over 35 years old.. The cancer devouring Black America will continue to decimate it's young until Black America says 'enough is enough'.. The Manny DaVeigas of the world are proof.