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Bricks-and-mortar retailers take fight against Amazon to the State House
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Comments
It's complicated
Who are B&M retailers pushing for this? When I shop on line it's for better prices overall and better selection, not to save sales tax.
And like the article says, if you tax companies based on a affiliate program, they just shot the program down in that state. All that hurts is our friendly neighborhood blogger...
I'll buy books at Powell's then
Tax free state, independent retailer, and MA can bite me if they think there's a couple dollars due.
An upper-middle class person who has problems with taxes...
Where have I heard that before?
No problem with taxes
I think they should tax more to support the actual costs of providing government.
I have a problem with nitpicking stupidity. I would prefer that MA stop giving multimillion dollar handouts to large corporations and make them pay more taxes like they do individual people.
$1B decline in sales tax revenue
I used to think this way. Then I heard a really good talk last week by Noah Berger, president of the Mass. Budget and Policy Institute, whose analysis indicates that between 1998 and 2008, state sales tax revenue fell by $1 billion.
Online sales don't account for all of that drop, but they are a significant factor-- I'm sorry I can't remember how much, but even if it's only a quarter, that's $250 million.
So, now I'm not so sure. I agree there's a nice "save a buck, stick it to the man" feeling that comes with ordering online, but it does come at a cost.
It makes sense
I use Amazon all the time but the playing field should be level as between Amazon and brick-and-mortar retailers, as well as with Mass.-based mail order retailers.
My real issue
MA seems to think that anything I buy in OR that would be taxable in MA should be tracked and I should pay my $1.25 back or something. Even if I leave the damn book in Portland.
Picayune and absurd.
I have some issues with the estimates as well. Much of that "lost revenue" may never have been in MA to begin with - people have ordered things from catalogs and hopped borders for years. The population of MA is largely aging and may be buying less now that their kids live in Atlanta and Seattle. Their persecution of people who shop in NH is ridiculous and wins them no public support.
There are good reasons the founders set up the "restraint of interstate trade" laws.
I'm not sure I follow
I'm not sure I follow you. You agree that sales tax is a reasonable thing, yes? But you don't approve of MA collecting sales tax on something purchased in another state, in any situation? What about the most common case, when you buy the thing in Oregon and have it shipped promptly to MA, for you to use? Who should collect the sales tax, in that case? Oregon? Or no one, since the taxable item has passed between jurisdictions? Do you have the same issues when you drive into Vermont for the day and buy things that you then take back to MA with you?
I guess I don't see any way this can pan out as an even playing field, unless you leave taxation of interstate sales to the feds, who aren't generally in the business of collecting sales tax. As it stands, Amazon is reaping a huge competitive advantage by offering a de facto 6% discount over any B&M vendor, and that advantage is directly subsidized by Massachusetts.
And while we're on the subject of ridiculous corporate behavior, who the hell does Amazon think they are threatening to withdraw from any state that dares levy the same tax on their products that every other vendor deals with? Like I said: they earn themselves a ton of extra business by circumventing tax restrictions that pretty clearly failed to anticipate the internet and FedEx, and that business comes at the direct cost of states who can't collect sales tax on what would otherwise have been locally-made purchases. It's the same multi-million-dollar handout you're decrying three posts up.
Oregon and interstate trade
1) Oregon is a no-sales-tax state. SG is currently in Oregon, not paying sales taxes for anything, but is earning income and paying MA income tax.
2) the Feds would have to be the ones to implement some kind of Internet sales-taxing system, and the Feds have specifically chosen not to.
3) what if I buy gadgets from a Chinese web site? Does every retail web site worldwide need to implement structures to collect and report each state's sales tax? Other countries recognize the USA, but have no formal relationship to the states.
4) Amazon, like Apple, would have to collect MA sales taxes as soon as it established a brick and mortar presence in our Commonwealth. But that's not Amazon's business model. It's kind of pathetic how we pay sales tax in the iTunes store just because we are honored by the presence of Apple Stores in our malls.
Well, if you go to (say)
Well, if you go to (say) walmart rather than your local store, aren't you sticking it to the man as well??
but now imagine your local retailer who's now taken to selling some product on line in order to complete. Now you want him to file for tax IDs in all 50 states and collect 50 different tax rates and file 50 different quarterly statements, because we now tax on line businesses??? That'll stick it to the local store but good...
It's more than 50
Not all 50 states have sales taxes.
In some states there are many taxing districts. In Washington state, for example, there are over 300.
"...because we now tax on line businesses."
Purchases made out of state are already subject to tax (online or otherwise). Residents are supposed to send it in if the retailer doesn't collect it.
I buy 'em here
We have (for now) a bunch of good indie bookstores, the sales tax is comparable to the cost of shipping a book across the continent, and more money stays in local communities.
Same here. If I can find a
Same here. If I can find a book locally at an indie book shop, I buy it. I don't care if I spend an extra few bucks on tax and overhead to support local brick & mortar businesses. I'm kind of surprised to hear that some people would rather drive to NH to buy books tax-free rather than support local indie retail. I can see why people prefer to buy on amazon since the deals can be incredible, but to drive to NH just to make a point? Sad and narrow-minded.
oh?
we have local independent bookstores?
Lots of local independent bookstores
Trident Booksellers on Newbury Street
Harvard Book Store in Harvard Square
Porter Square Books
Brookline Booksmith in Coolidge Corner
Newtonville Books
Back Pages Books on Moody Street in Waltham
The Book Rack in Arlington Center
Book Ends in Winchester Center
The Concord Bookshop
I'm sure there are many more that I haven't listed here. This list includes only general new-book stores (some of them also sell used books).
Roslindale
Village Books.
West Roxbury
Pazzo's (used but awesome)
Dedham
The Blue Bunny
exceptional selection of books for preK to teen (and a smattering of good titles for grownup readers)
also a limited but very high quality selection of toys/games
Yeah, I'd have to say farewell to Amazon
Fortunately, in the greater scheme of things, it's generally not a ton of revenue for me, but, yes, whenever a state threatens to make Amazon collect taxes, Amazon's first step is to threaten to take away affiliate deals in that state.
It's a bs threat, because at
It's a bs threat, because at this point, the majority of states are looking to tax them, they cant cancel all their affiliates.
The fact is, people go to amazon to save on taxes.
Thats what I did when I bought a $1,600 HDTV. Thats $80 saved in taxes, a significant amount. Mind you, I would have bought from amazon anyway, as they were cheaper than bestbuy and friends, but when I did it, the state lost.
That doesnt make sense.
Doubtful precept
I don't believe this to be a major reason for ordering online. I've seen people discuss greater brand selection a lot, product variety (the ability to get everything at one website), convenience of home delivery, and competitive pricing, but taxes is usually one of the last things mentioned if at all. In fact, you even suggest that the competitive pricing was a greater reason than taxes for yourself.
Whether or not I have to pay taxes through Amazon isn't going to influence my shopping decisions. The last reason I bought on Amazon was because the local stores didn't carry exactly what I was looking for but I found it quickly and cheaply on Amazon.
But look, if best buy would
But look, if best buy would have offered the TV for 1,550, and amazon 1,600, it would have made more sense to pick amazon because of the total bill.
No it isn't
When Illinois passed a similar measure, Amazon cancelled all affiliate contracts.
Legally, you owe that $80 to the state. And by admitting online that you evaded the tax, if the state wants to collect and penalize you they have this as evidence.
Well, I have to side with
Well, I have to side with Amazon on this one. In fact, I'd prefer to abolish the sales tax altogether. Sales taxes are regressive, and that's not really something we need. (Plus abolishing it is exactly as good, from the perspective of a level sales tax playing field for online and local businesses, as imposing it on everyone, with probably less of a fight for enforcing collection)
If the state would run short on revenue, let's raise progressive taxes, such as raising the income tax and adding several brackets to it, raising capital gains taxes, or imposing a wealth tax.