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Citizen complaint of the day: Offensive typography on South End street signs
By adamg on Mon, 12/26/2011 - 6:30am
An offended citizen reports a punch to the sensibilities whenever he or she looks up at some new street signs in the South End:
The new Clearview signs in the South End look great in all-caps, but this one, like those at Appleton and Dartmouth, are jarring to the eyes and just don't look right. I hope the city will correct this for the visual good of the neighborhood.
Neighborhoods:
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Comments
Are you one of the nice folks at the Mayor's call center?
Have you been one of the nice folks at the Mayor's telephone call center?... 617-635-4500 http://www.cityofboston.gov/mayor/24 ...didn't know you've been a City Hall denizen!
Are You KIidding Me?
This is an important "issue?" Someone is pissed off that they are now using Caps and lower-case, rather than all Caps, on the street signs?
Get a life, please.
I noticed it, too.
I noticed it, too, in another neighborhood (Beacon Hill), and it bothered me, and I almost opened in a citizen's connect ticket. I can't even change the doorknob on my front door without permission from the city (historic district); there's a lot of money and effort put into the way the streets look, and up go some new signs that don't look like the other signs, and that look like they were made by Middle School kids rather than by a professional sign shop. Fail.
MUTCD
New federal manual requires all new street name signs to use initial caps followed by lower case lettering.
Bureaucrats run amok?
Absurd. I guess this is what the government considers "creating jobs".
You don't see the benefit in
You don't see the benefit in standardizing roadway signage?
Troll
First, my recollection is that Rethuglicans ended up blocking implementing of the new standard until 2028 or so.
Ironically, the entire point of the new readability and reflective standards was to standardize regs and create greater production efficiency/lower overall costs..... All so the aging sows and cows careening across Amerca's highways* would be more informed and protected by a uniform and legible set of directional signs. The Times has reported on this rather extensively the last few years.
Cripes.
* Highways, a jobs act if there ever was one! And started by plus named after a Republican, no less!!
Yes Stevil, it is absurd that
Yes Stevil, it is absurd that the government has modified the signs to be easier to read, and thus safer.
So absurd.
There's this thing called "science" which allows one to conduct tests to find the optimal type which allows people to read signs quicker and from further away. That's sort of important when people are driving, and you want them to be focusing on the road, and not squinting at signs.
Such a shame when fact-based reasoning gets in the way of "doing things like theyve always been done".
Perfect distinction
this is not absurd:
the government has modified the signs to be easier to read, and thus safer.
This is absurd:
New federal manual requires all new street name signs to use initial caps followed by lower case lettering.
keep in mind the absurd part costs a lot of money for a very low piority item that we have to borrow money from China to pay for. The other part involves BTD reading a trade journal or at most an email from a "higher authority". Nice to have sure. But we're broke and can't afford nice to have things because our government spent all our money - about the only bipartisan thing that happens these days.
The absurd thing is that you
The absurd thing is that you think there's some kind of mandate to replace all the signs before Tuesday.
The MUTCD ruling, like all of their rulings, is that all NEW signs should follow the standard, and all existing signs should be replaced as usual, at the end of their life.
AKA: Zero additional costs.
So stop talking about borrowing money and such because it's not relevant. Stuff breaks or becomes illegible and needs replacing. That shouldnt surprise anyone.
No such delusion J
It's obvious they are implementing this as signs are replaced and installed. The signs are not the problem. The problem is that we are a trillion with a T dollars in the red and at the mercy of the Chinese to keep that merry go round spinning and we are paying people to sit around and make up rules about whether street signs should be in upper or lower case letters. I can't think of too amny lower priorities for our government to spend money on. If someone has the time to sit around and write these kinds of rules, their job is redundant and should be eliminated from government.
You said it yourself: "this
You said it yourself:
"this is not absurd:
the government has modified the signs to be easier to read, and thus safer. "
I think vehicle safety is extraordinarily important, considering 30,000 americans are killed every year, plus countless more injured.
If these people were "made redundant" we'd be using the same lovely highway design standards from the 1930's.
Still redundant
Actually I've had to read and apply some of these other regulations that you refer to. All very sensible controlling turn radii, gradient, lane width depending on average speed of the highway etc. Those are not absurd. You can read the article below but a few highlights (just an opinion piece but a few interesting points):
-The "science" this seems highly questionable. As the author notes apparently street signs where you might be traveling 10 mph are covered, but highways where traffic flows at 60 MPH is not included - you'd think if it were about safety that would be a MUCH higher priority (sorry if you had trouble reading MUCH - used it for emphasis).
It's not "free" even though signs are replaced as normal- compliance in Milwaukee is estimated to cost $1.4 million
At least one member of Congress agrees with me and is working to have this overturned - and an Alderman from Milwaukee uses almost the exact argument I do - overreaching bureaucrats trying to justify their place on the public payroll - not safety (and found another link that even the signmakers are having difficulty making the font fit on the standard sign blades).
30,000 people a year do get killed on the roads - carnage we should put an end to - but that's drunks, seatbelts, texting while driving, excessive speed, inexperience, distractions etc. I'm guessing it happens but when was the last time you heard that someone got killed or even hurt because the driver couldn't read a street sign that was in all caps. Seriously. this is a priority?
Sorry J, but of all the problems we have to focus on this is not anywhere near the top of the list. Might be a nice to have, but not a need to have and we can't even afford the need to haves these days.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/104545064.html
Highway Signs
Actually I can't think of any of the green with white text signs on US Highways that don't use normal capitalization (lack of complete capitalization) in their text. All the ones designating what's at what exit are in an easy to read font that uses normal capitalization already.
There was an interesting Top Gear segment where James May interviewed the woman who was one of the people responsible for not only all the British highway icons but also the sign fonts and there was a discussion on how the shape of words was important to allow one to only partially read the words and the brain fills in the gaps.
It is important that drivers can read signs on highways. It can be a safety issue since one leans forward to squint at signs and thus is less in a good position to drive properly. But even if not a safety matter, missing ones exit and having to go all the way to the next one and turning around because one couldn't read a sign easily is a bad thing. A bad thing that can be easily avoided by proper signage.
The money is not an issue. It may cost Milwaukee 1.4 million to replace some signs but that is 1.4 million they would need to spend on replacing signs whether the replacements use all caps or not. The only way to not spend that 1.4 million is to not have any signs on those roads where the old ones fall down from decrepitude. And there would be no shortage of money to spend on issues if rich people paid their fair share in taxes.
Route 2 used to have ALLCAPS exit signs
I remember Route 2 having non-standard ALLCAPS signs for its exits. A while ago, almost all of them got replaced with standard Interstate-style signs. (There may be one or two old signs left over; I haven't driven there in a while.)
What's truly absurd
Coming up with better street signs isn't absurd (whether all-caps is better or not I will leave aside). Spending money on it isn't absurd either.
What's absurd is that you think borrowing money is a problem for us. The United States can borrow money at approximately zero interest rate:
All over the world, people are desperate to hold US Government debt -- they will even take a NEGATIVE real interest rate for the privilege -- because we are seemingly the only safe place left. Not only that, but borrowing money "from China" gives them zero leverage over us. Quite the opposite, in fact. They are quite dependent on the current arrangement over there in Beijing.
What's truly absurd is that we aren't taking advantage of this incredible situation to rebuild our infrastructure and put people to work.
Brilliant
And if the world decides they don't want to accept zero on their investments and there is otherwise inflation because we are printing money like toilet paper to pay our debts - now the yield on those bad boys goes to say 7% and inflation is running say 8% on what - a trillion dollars of new debt when it comes time to refinance these in ten years (God knows we don't have the money or discipline to pay this down). Where do we come up with the spare $150 billion for interest on top of the $trillion we are already spending in interest. Let me guess - tax the rich - who are all retired in Costa Rica with their money in tax free munis (or TIPs and they want their pound of flesh too). You people really just don't get it do you? We don't live in a vacuum.
What, that'll never happen? You might want to talk to Dick Fuld about what happens when you say "That'll never happen".
The difference
Your fears are pure right-wing fantasy, while my response is drawn from real data. Since 2009, many claimed that inflation and interest rates would be spiraling upward. In fact, the opposite has happened.
Right-wing lunatics have been making these same dire predictions as you have listed for years. Time and time again, they have been proven wrong by history. Yet, being wrong doesn't dissuade them the slightest. You must be on your guard. Don't be fooled by the crazies. Some have political motivations for their wacky views, others simply don't understand economics.
Noah
They told him it wasn't going to rain either.
You don't even want to go there unless you think the laws of supply and demand have been suspended to support your argument.
Hang in there grasshoppah, hang in there, inflation will come in due time. It's not a matter of if, it's when.
Noah
They told him it wasn't going to rain either.
You don't even want to go there unless you think the laws of supply and demand have been suspended to support your argument.
Hang in there grasshoppah, hang in there, inflation will come in due time. It's not a matter of if, it's when.
Combination of caps and lower case letters on street signs
It isn't necessarily about creating jobs (but can you really be against people working?), but rather about readability.
There is extensive research that shows that the use of ALL CAPS MAKES IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T GREAT READERS TO DISTINGUISH ONE LETTER FROM ANOTHER. USING ALL CAPS ON STREET SIGNS MAKES THEM HARDER TO READ. Alternately, the use of (the grammatically correct) combination of caps and lower case letters when writing proper nouns improves the readability of the word.
Therefore, the federal law is intended to increase accessibility and readability of street signs - thus making the streets safer for everyone!
Bureaucratic overreach
Jobs are fine, safety's fine - up to a point. But do we really need to spend money on this? How much "safer" are we by making this change? Please quantify. You need to answer at least the following questions:
How far is an all caps sign legible from (assuming 6" standard letters - many older signs are about 4 inches)
How much distance does making it small or large caps add at say a moderate "I'm lost" speed of 20 mph?
What percentage of road signs are even visible from that distance i.e. - not blocked by things like trees, buildings, poles etc. until you are almost right on top of them such that visibility, not legibility is the ruling factor in identifying the cross street?
How many accidents are caused by people that would have been prevented by switching to the new standard?
What is the cost of the change (it's not "free" and do we really need a federal government that intrusive on local issues?)
There are a number of ways to value everything from property damage to loss of life - is it worth this cost? May sound callous - but we do it every day even in personal decisions.
At 20 MPH It looks like current signs are legible with about 5 seconds of reaction time (about 150 ft). The switch pushes it to about 5.75 seconds (about 170 ft) assuming you can read the sign IMMEDIATELY when it is legible. As you get closer to the sign, the difference in legibility time/distance approaches zero. So - you need to show the damages caused by accidents at 20 MPH where being able to read a street sign on average 1/3 of one second or possibly less would have made the difference by an otherwise sober and careful driver.
My guess is that that number approaches zero also.
I don't doubt that you can counterintuitively read a normally formatted word/sentence marginally from a greater distance. I have grave doubts that spending even a penny on this type of regulation (establishment, training, implementation, enforcement) will keep me from getting run over by a lost tourist. I'm far too busy watching out for the drunks and the chatters on their cellphones anyway.
Don Saklad reports a road sign?
http://derspatchel.livejournal.com/311032.html
Point taken
If you live in one of the city's "historical districts," such as the South End, you can't change the exterior of your building one iota without permission of the historical commission. Lord help you if you want to repaint your stoop a different color. And then the city gets to come along and put up ugly street signs?
ABSOLUTELY
I AGREE THAT IT SHOULD BE ALL CAPS, THERE'S NOTHING QUITE AS WARMING. IN FACT, I HAVE NOTICED THAT MOST PEOPLE PREFER COMMUNICATIONS IN ALL-CAPS ALL THE TIME. ;-)
Personally, I like the capital followed by lower case, it feels a little more civilized (perhaps the above paragraph illustrates this). But, having the signs inconsistent is perhaps the least appealing of all.
We have a couple in Hyde Park...
There are two new signs in Hyde Park - one on Myopia Rd, the other on Summer Street Place - that are in all caps and in the Clearview font.
They look good, but the Columbus Avenue picture has "ave" too far off to the right. I agree with the complainant in that respect, but their beef shouldn't be with the city - it's MUTCD rules that the signs be this way so that fire, police and EMS can find their locations a lot easier.
You people are slipping
It's been eight hours...is it really up to me? Guess so:
How ironic that the sign on Myopia Rd. is now easier to see!
Innit, though? :-D
Yup - of all the irony, Myopia Road has the clearest street sign.
Complaints about street signs?
I'm surprised they are not complaining that they exist, and that the money was wasted for the convenience of people who shouldn't be in (insert neighborhood) anyway.
Just be glad that Boston actually puts them up on nearly every street now, and especially on major roadways. Even if they were hand lettered in day-glo crayon, this is so much better than it used to be.
Step aside, I'm with the typography police
I read that the upper/lower format is easier to read.
SEE HOW MUCH EASIER IT IS TO READ THAT THAN TO READ THIS WHERE i GO ON AND ON ABOUT THE CRYPTO FASCISTS WHO ARE TAKING OVER OUR BRAINS BLAH BLAH
Sigh-ns
I've seen a few of the new signs up in JP as well, although the ones I've seen have been in all caps, which in my opinion is worse than the one in the photo above. (The only trouble with that one seems to be that the capital letter is either boldface or too large.)
I agree that these new signs, especially the all-caps ones, are utterly lacking in charm, although I appreciate that they're easier to read than the old ones (or, you know, the nonexistent ones).
The appropriate South End
The appropriate South End community committes need to come up with new signs. I recommend Ye Olde text - property values are sure to soar.
Citizens Connect waste of resources?
Granted, i think Adam is only showing some of the more ridiculous posts but I see this as a potentially huge drain on resources.
Any crank with a smartphone can submit "problems?"
I hope there's a system in place to analyze the severity of these complaints before wasting resources on even addressing them.
I prefer to think of them as "interesting"
If you go to the Citizens Connect site, you'll see the vast majority are about exactly the sort of thing you'd want a citizen-reporting system to be about: Broken street lights, graffiti, etc. I just look for the more interesting ones. I'm doubting it really takes much time for somebody in the mayor's hotline office to forward them or to note that the attached photo shows a cow instead of graffiti.
........
I will not rest until I get my sans serif society!
Really?
Me thinks someone needs some happy pills in the coffee if this person is complaining about signs! Just be glad you have them....
Wow... Just wow....
Can't win with signs
So, pick any two of:
But you can't have all three.
Post! Article. Blog entry.
Question.
In the upper right of the home page here how do you use the "Post!" mechanism?...
at
http://www.universalhub.com/node/add
Question.
? What's the difference between an "Article" http://www.universalhub.com/node/add/article and a "Blog entry" http://www.universalhub.com/node/add/blog
Font snobs
I wasn't aware such people existed until the past few years when suddenly they are everywhere.
I'm going to go around making signs in Comic Sans just to piss them off.