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MBTA moves to end pram 'n' cram
By adamg on Sun, 05/01/2011 - 10:05am
The Herald reports the T is readying a policy that would require parents to fold their strollers while on trains.
MBTA GM Richard Davey: "There are some that are like SUVs."
Carla, mother of two, however, is aghast:
On busy train, parent should stand holding baby in 1 hand, stoller in other, & not be able to hang on to anything? Unsafe.
The Outraged Liberal, meanwhile, says there's an even worse group of space hogs the T should combat: Backpackers.
[W]omen and men with small children have one thing urban backpackers lack -- the sense to know they are taking up extra space. Say something to a toddler toter and you will get an attempt at accommodation. Say something to a backpacker and you will likely get a lot of lip.
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Comments
Both Davey and the Outraged
Both Davey and the Outraged Liberal are right. These people are entitled spacehogs who don't have much regard for their fellow passengers.
ditto
I also don't understand why
a) strollers have to be so giant or
b) why kids perfectly capable of walking (4 years old?) need to be pushed around by someone else.
I'm not feeling the sympathy for parents. My mother took me and my sister (2.5 years apart) to daycare in Government Center for years without an SUV stroller. Gasp!
a) I hate this too. When I
a) I hate this too. When I was a kid we had flimsy strollers that would collapse if you looked at them funny. We turned out okay.
b) Really annoys me too. Make that kid walk.
So, I should preface this
So, I should preface this with: I have a 2 year old and a baby on the way. I also don't own a car, so walking (with the stroller) and riding the T (or buses) are the main ways I get about town.
I agree that the giant strollers are ridiculous, and there's no good reason for parents not to fold them up when their kids can sit in the seats on the train and the bus. But I put more than 2 miles on my stroller every day, and those crummy umbrella strollers just don't cut it, especially in the winter when I have to push it through unshoveled sidewalks.
My two year old can hop out of the stroller and sit in a seat; folding it up isn't a big deal. But when my second child is born, I'm not going to be able to take the baby out and hold it, carry a folded up stroller, and try to get my 2yo to obey me when I say it's time to get on the train. Rather than outlawing them outright, how about using some common sense and doing what you can to get out of other people's ways? This applies to people who have giant bags from South Station and people who wear their backpacks on a crowded train or bus.
With gas prices through the roof, I don't think we should be discouraging the public from taking public transportation.
Your choice to keep having
Your choice to keep having kids, why should the rest of us suffer? Take a cab.
Hmm, J, it's public
Hmm, J, it's public transportation. Maybe you're the one who should be taking a cab if you can't tolerate sharing space with a parent trying to get his or her kids around. If you call that suffering, I can see why you don't have kids.
"your choice to have
"your choice to have kids...". This is assanine and ignorant. How does society continue without children. Go ahead and slap yourself for your comment
Why with 7 billion people,
Why with 7 billion people, humanity is certainly doomed if urban snowflakes dont breed!
Here's the deal
Have kids if you want them - yer an animal, that's your thing.
Don't have kids if you don't want them - the world has plenty of animals already, society won't disappear if you don't.
Abandon your entitlement attitude either way.
Baby Bjorn + small stroller or walking todler
You do have other options. I spent years traveling with young children on the 'T, I made every effort to not over use the space available.
Strollers, bicycles, backpacks
My issue here is equity.
People have very valid reasons and needs for double-wide strollers, big backpacks and, in my case, bicycles. For bicycles there are many reasons you might need to take the T--for example, there is no other legal way to cross the river to Boston from East Boston.
It's my view that the rules should be the same for everyone. If bicycles are not allowed on the T during rush hour, double-wide strollers shouldn't be allowed either. Or big backpacks.
The best solution would be to spend more money and get more trains so there is room for everyone even during rush hours--bicycles, strollers and backpacks. Less cars on the road, less smog, more relaxed happy people.
If we are all griping about this, the underlying reason is that public transit is not valued enough to spend the money that needs to be spent to do it right. Yet public transit is super important to our quality of life, from the air quality in the city to the ability to get somewhere without the hassle of parking or the expense of a cab.
But for now, let's have one rule during rush hour for everyone. If you aren't allowing bicycles, don't allow strollers or luggage over a certain size. Treat everyone the same.
It's not a river
.
Anon: Did you even read the
Anon:
Did you even read the outraged liberal post? I will agree that the o.l. post was right, backpacks and unreliable trains/busses are both bigger issues, I don't think that's what you were trying to say though.
We don't need more rules from
We don't need more rules from the T telling us what to do or not to do. On a less philosophical level, I don't think this problem would make the T's top 100 things that need fixing... although if it were a real issue, sentence #1 would still apply.
Um, strollers are "the number
Um, strollers are "the number one complaint" he's received since he's been in charge?
Really?
Seriously. REALLY?
Delays haven't been the number one complaint? I'm gonna start bitching more, then.
I believe most people realize
I believe most people realize that the delays stem from a ton of different hard to fix and fund issues that will take years to correct.
Strollers and backpacks however can be fixed with flyers and maybe an automated announcement...
speaking of automated
speaking of automated announcements, has anyone else noticed how their announcement about the service shutdown on the green line mispronounces Lechmere?
My biggest complaint
Is drunk undergrads and their penchant to hurl near me on the green line.
Because everyone loves the
Because everyone loves the moms that have double wide strollers on the T and two little brats too old to be in a stroller tagging along beside mom, since the stroller is often being used as an over sized shopping cart.
I remember when folding strollers came out and everyone thought they were great for NOT taking up a huge amount of space. Now every little snowflake has to be in a freaking mobile urban assault kid carrier.
My favorites are the parents
My favorites are the parents who plop themselves in the handicapped seats beside the doors (on the newer trains) and then park their urban assault stroller lengthwise in front of them, blocking both the rest of the handicapped seats AND passage into the middle of the train. Bonus points if they have a giant diaper bag taking up at least one more seat beside them.
On the flipside, jerks who stand in the handicapped bay opposite and refuse to move to make way for a stroller to be parked correctly should be tossed off, too. It goes both ways.
So the handicap seats are
So the handicap seats are only for handicaps, but the handicap bays are for strollers.
Ceiling cat is intrigued by your logic.
I can see the sense in this.
I can see the sense in this. Some strollers are so large that they really do make it difficult for other people to move around the subway car. And I say this as a frazzled mom who is sometimes offender of this behavior. I vow to do better! On the other hand, I have friends who are more environmentally conscious than I am. They have two kids and don’t own a car. They just pack everything they need for the day in the stroller and take the T everywhere. I think this is going to be hard on them because it is hard to fold up a stroller that is doubling as grocery cart.
I want to also add that the people who infuriated me the most are the girls who place their hand bags on the seat next to them. I’ve gotten into raging arguments with a friend at work about this. She doesn’t want to get her bag dirty so she places it on the seat next to her. This explanation results in my head exploding.
Lap?
or is that dirty too?
Hey - you don't have to tell
Hey - you don't have to tell me.
Exactly
I'd much rather have my handbag on my lap than on the potentially peed-on, sticky, germ-crusted seat next to me. Of course, I'm not dumb enough to buy an expensive white bag and expect to keep it clean carting it all over the city, either.
Tell your friend that that's
Tell your friend that that's why god created laps. Whenver I'm sitting that's where my bag is.
You don't take the T a lot, I take it
Even on non-rush-hour trains, seats are sometimes at a premium - and those with seats are not always in a rush to give theirs up to people with kids.
I take the T every day.
I take the T every day. Presumably more than you do since IIRC you've discussed car related issues in the past. The T is my primary mode of transit. And yes seats are at a premium and yes people who are sitting need to be more considerate of others who are older or infirm. But in this post I was talking about handbags and not children.
Stroller vs Carrage
The issue here should be dimensions. Little strollers that are no more then a seat and wheels and don't take up any more room then the average sized adult should be allowed. These behemoth shopping cart sized carriages that are larger then the average powered wheelchair should be banned.
When I rode the T regularly (its unreliability has shifted me to a bike for anything less then three or four miles) I saw these massive carriages blocking entryways, pathways, and seats. And perhaps 70% of the time the kid WASN'T EVEN IN THE CARRIAGE. The worst was on a completely packed 66, when a woman crammed herself at the rear door with her carriage and REFUSED TO MOVE to let people get on or off, or even let the door open, despite the driver and a good handful of passengers yelling at her. It took about 5-10 minutes at each stop to get people on and off, and in the end I would up getting locked out of a midterm exam.
A backpack on the back ban would be amazing too. Ive seen people get hit in the face pretty hard with these things, one girl got her forehead cut by something hanging off of one. Not only is it a safety issue for everyone around, its stupidly easy to grab stuff out of someones backpack in a crowded environment. This could be written off as a safety issue for those carrying backpacks.
In all, I like the whole "courtesy counts" thing the T has been doing lately, and am all for a broadening of it.
They have no problem telling
They have no problem telling riders that they cant take bikes on to the rapid lines (red, orange blue) and commuter rail during rush hours, which by the way, if you have a bike, ride the damn thing dont take it on the subway! I always take my backpack off when I get on if it is packed. One major problem is people's lacking of common sense. I see plenty of moms with strollers big and small, try to cram their ways onto already packed cars on the greenline, here is a hint, wait for the next train! On the new green line cars, when a stoller come on, no one ever move from their "spot" nor do they give up the coveted handicap space next to the door for someone to put a stroller. It is a much larger problem then just strollers, lets start with people standing in the doorways and getting them to move into the train and go from there.
I think a big part of the
I think a big part of the problem, at least WRT backpacks is the relatively high number of college kids. Most of these kids are from the suburbs and they're only here for a few years and often don't develop good city habits. In the suburbs if you want to wear a backpack on your back all day it's no big deal because there's plenty of room. On the T it can be a major annoyance. Suburbanites also don't have to deal with large numbers of people as much and so don't develop the spacial awareness that tells you to do things like, oh, move all the way into a T car so that people aren't packed like sardines. I can't tell you how many times I've seen tourists come out of a T station and stop immediately in front of the exit as they try to figure out where they should go.
Die, suburban airhead leaches, die
You see a lot teens from the suburbs and college kids who are oblivious to how much space their backpack takes up when they don't remove it on the T, and how many people they're smacking with it as they move around.
I don't even bother telling them, because some of them are so effing in love with themselves that I don't want the legal trouble that would follow if they smirked and said they'll do whatever the eff they want.
They should be regulating [people not like me]!
You can't complain about people having strollers and backpacks on mass transit. The whole point of mass transit is to give people a way to get where they need to go. How are people with small children going to get around without a stroller? How are people commuting to work or school going to get around without a backpack? These fundamental needs outweigh any amount of inconvenience done to people who are themselves still getting their fundamental needs met by transit.
Of course, some people with strollers and backpacks are assholes. Some of those assholes are using their strollers and backpacks in assholish ways. But the problem is that they are assholes, not that they have strollers or backpacks, and you can't regulate that.
Stop trying to punish an entire class of people who have different transit needs than you just to try to punish assholes who happen to belong to that class.
People with kids can choose a
People with kids can choose a small stroller if they're reliant on mass transit. Fold the stroller up. Or they can make their non infant children walk. Or use a baby sling. People who think that an urban assault stroller is the only way to cart their offspring around are dead wrong.
As for backpack's no one is suggesting don't have them. But take it off your f-ing back.
People with kids can choose a
People with kids can choose a small stroller if they're reliant on mass transit. Fold the stroller up. Or they can make their non infant children walk. Or use a baby sling. People who think that an urban assault stroller is the only way to cart their offspring around are dead wrong.
As for backpack's no one is suggesting don't have them. But take it off your f-ing back.
I need pictures of the strollers
I don't see the space disadvantage for a little umbrella-style stroller. The kid is just going to take up a seat anyway.
I need some more photographic evidence before I can pronounce sentence on this matter.
People are most torqued off
People are most torqued off about the "urban assault stroller" which is constructed to take up as much space as humanly possible. Here's a photo of one type
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38543600@N05/3639120034/
Not the big tires placed as widely as possible so as to take up as much precious urban space as it can. And the long handlebar in back and the extended prow in front to lengthen the baby carrier to dimensions normally reserved for Smartcars.
stroller's not that big
How many human spaces does it take up? 1.5 regular people at most?
The problem is that the stollers often blocks aisles
Making it hard for people to move in and out.
For everyone who says that
For everyone who says that strollers should be banned, I want your VERY BEST SUGGESTION for how I should do the following:
Hold two small children at the same time while folding a stroller (with my third hand?) as well as finding a space for the stroller and the groceries and library books I am carrying, and then where do I put the stroller and where can I sit with two small children in my lap and where are my groceries and library books going to go, and if there are no free seats (and you know there aren't) then how in the world is it SAFE for me two hold two small children and not hold onto anything myself to prevent us all from falling? And where are my stroller, groceries, and library books in this scenario? And who is going to offer me any assistance at all? Who is going to hold the babies while I attempt to fold and stow? You? The driver?
I want your very best suggestion. Thank you.
As other people have said
As other people have said when the issue of baby strollers ineviably comes up one option is a baby sling. As for all your library books and groceries, maybe you need two different trips. Or if you absolutely MUST use an urban assault stroller then you can wait longer until a less packed train comes along.
I think one thing that annoys the non-stroller people and the non parent people is that some folks seem to believe that their lifestyle decisions should inconvenience everyone else rather than them. So your decision to have two children who are, presumably, incapable of walking or standing without benefit of a stroller does not, according to you, mean that you should modify your lifestyle at all to, say, forego checking out masses of library books, or buying large amounts of groceries while out with the kids. Instead it should mean that everyone else on the T has to be crammed in like sardines or be tripping over you and your family because you need to have an urban assault stroller. I understand that these things are convenient for people in many ways. They're a big sturdy thing that provides a lot of comfort for their child and also provides ample room for other stuff. My brother has lots of kids and he has a stroller that can fit three, and it has a baby story worth of stuff inside it. But people need to have consideration for the other folks around them. For those of us who don't use strollers it too often seems that people with the big modern strollers just don't seem to care about the space they take up in a city.
Yep.
"some folks seem to believe that their lifestyle decisions should inconvenience everyone else rather than them"
Interestingly, this attitude seems to come largely from the upper and lower classes and much less so from the working and middle classes. Both in my personal life and in my professional life, I hear this from the several-generations-of-public-assistance folks and the old-money folks, and I think it really boils down to not fully seeing reproducing as a choice.
Women in the first group often are surrounded by messages that having a child is the only available route to adulthood, one's own apartment, income, etc., and really don't view having consciously chosen to have the child. Plenty of low-income women who are politically very pro-choice will talk to me as if the child just kind of happened, they hadn't expected to be a parent, and, well, oh well.
Folks in the upper classes with elite lineage will talk to me about how reproducing wasn't exactly their personal choice, only with a different twist in which there were expectations around planning same-aged cousins, raising people who would be through school and could work at the family firm around when someone else would be of retirement age, etc.
Both groups of people often (not necessarily consciously) go around with an attitude that of course they needed to have the child(ren) in order to pass on the stellar genes or in order to get their own apartment, so you'd better move over.
This isn't to say that many of these folks aren't also great parents, but just that a lot of this behavior seems influenced by this overarching view that parenting wasn't something they chose.
Another Type
Then there are those who believe that reproducing is the most wonderful and noble act they ever could have performed and we should all be thankful for their contribution to the continuance of the species in such a stellar fashion as they have provided. This type crosses all class boundaries and is probably most responsible for the problem we're discussing. They don't understand why we're not utterly entranced by their progeny, thus no understanding of why we might not approve of the progeny's need for commodious transport.
Most moms aren't among the above, but those that are act insufferably entitled.
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
fox corn chicken and baby in a boat
I'm with the mom. Taking your advice she'll be stuck in that puzzle with the fox, the corn, the chicken and the boat.
Don't make the lifestyle choice to have babies? Have you been in the world? There's a reason they make sex so much fun.
Do you think this is a new
Do you think this is a new problem? That parents haven't been dealing with for decades with public transportation, and centuries overall? Small "umbrella" strollers are not that obtrusive and should not be banned, but the monstrous shopping cart ones are like trying to take another vehicle on the train or bus. Leave the kids at home. Or, don't do all your errands at once. Or take a cab if you have a crazy ton of stuff. Or if the kid is older than 2.5 or so, it can walk/stand and doesn't need a stroller. This is what people did long before these condo-on-wheels devices that popped up in the last decade - please don't pretend like you're some disadvantaged victim because you're offended that you can't do whatever the hell you want even if it inconveniences (at the very least), and injures (how many of us have been hit by those strollers too big to see the front?) or have the safety risked of others.
Public transportation is to be shared, but none of us can do whatever the hell we want at the detriment to other passengers. Your condo-on-wheels is not a human being, nor it is a necessary device. Parents have functioned with one or more kids just fine long before the popularity of those obnoxious new strollers.
You are assuming a lot of
You are assuming a lot of things. You are assuming that both children are mine and that I am not a nanny. You are assuming that both children are not infants. You are assuming that I have money for a sling or a different model of stroller, let alone a cab! Do you think that most people who rely on the bus to transport their children can afford a cab at any convenience? I think not. Have some compassion. Not everyone has access to the luxuries that grease the wheels of life that you may have.
Next time you see a parent with small children struggling on the bus, why don't you say, "What can I do to help you out?"
See, but this is the "choices" issue again...
(Again, I'm a big advocate of taking children out and about, and of the city and the world being for everyone...)
You're right that we can't assume the particular situation for any one person, and it really isn't any of our business to call out any one family, and isn't appropriate to put them in a position where they have to explain their choices. But when the entire T is full of strollers and loads of baby possessions, I think we can start to make some generalizations and make guidelines accordingly.
Some of the three-year-olds in strollers are children with disabilities who really can't walk far, but most have overindulgent parents.
Some of the people with huge expensive strollers might have been given them or have borrowed them, but most of those people bought them and could have chosen to buy a small stroller and a sling. Or if they really are destitute, they can get such things from Cradles to Crayons. Or make choices to give up things like cable. Or get things from freecycle or craigslist.
And yes, as long as the person is already on the bus with all the loads of crap and isn't being outright assholish, the right thing to do is to offer to help.
Have some compassion for
Have some compassion for people you travel with, and realize that they have their own worries and concerns, and don't live to serve other people and their kids at their detriment - whether the kids you're carting around are your own, or your boss's. And if it's an issue with their boss not providing adequate finance to get around and do all their errands, then take it up with the boss - don't force everyone around you to accommodate you.
Do you expect other people on the bus to have money to afford a cab? Or a car? They need to get where they're going, too. They have a right to do so without being injured, too. They might also have kids or are caretakers with kids, but are more conscientious about how they use public transportation. You're making a lot of assumptions about the people you ride with, too.
No one's saying to not take kids on the bus or train. There is no discrimination. But don't pretend like traveling on public transportation with kids is some kind of old-timey conundrum. People have been taking kids around on the train or bus for a long time, long before the massive strollers. One can do it perfectly fine without their personal, enormous shopping and kiddie cart. The bus or train is not your personal vehicle to take everything you want with you anytime you want to - we all share that space.
Get one of those smaller, cheaper folding strollers
and use that for your infant, and, if your older child can stand and walk, have him or her do so. If you have a car, use that if you're going to be carrying a lot of stuff.
Totally
I'm personally quite pro-child, but I'm sick of some people's attitude that one person's CHOICE to raise a child and take that child particular places somehow trumps everything else.
One person's choice to take a child and loads of the child's possessions on the T at rush hour isn't any more valid or important than another person's choice to take a handtruck full of hobby materials on the T at rush hour.
Both people might want to think about the collective society and choose to travel at a different time or choose to be a little inconvenienced by not having every single piece of your collection available or having to tell the kid that we didn't bring that particular book along on the ride and getting your diaper changed on a restroom floor isn't going to kill you. Life is all about sacrifices and compromises.
I isn't is a good idea to
I isn't is a good idea to decide availability of public services on the basis of the motivation of the user. People choose to eat junk food and yet no one seriously thinks they should be denied healthcare for what follows from their choices; people choose not to wear seatbelts; but no one suggests their injuries should be treated any less expertly than anyone else injured in a car crash... there are alot of examples.
Putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5
I don't think I or anyone else said that any one category of behavior should get one kicked off the T (except for obviously illegal stuff that already does). I think we're just advocating for a few more guidelines since the idea of just being respectful of your fellow person isn't fazing a lot of people.
BTW, in your examples, healthcare providers can refuse to provide services to people who are outright assholes or blatantly disrespectful of the provider's time. I terminate with people if they miss enough appointments. Like most things in life, it's a partnership.
Kate's comment times a
Kate's comment times a million.
If I can't carry everything easily on the subway or bus, the solution ISN'T to bring a shopping cart along with me. The solution is to take a cab, Zip car, get a ride, or break the trip up into several.
My very best suggestion: get over yourself and your ridiculous sense of entitlement.
Take a cab. "but that costs
Take a cab.
"but that costs more than $1.70"
Should have thought about that before having kids.
Walk? Oh, but that would only
Walk?
Oh, but that would only inconvenience you. You'd rather inconvenience everyone else on the T.
Here's another suggestion-
More short trips with fewer items and/or kids.
I make sure I can get about my daily business w/o inconveniencing or needing assistance from the general public.
It's called being a responsible adult- you should really try it some time.
@ Sarah, if I could "like"
@ Sarah, if I could "like" your comment (a la Facebook), then I certainly would! I've been writing this same thing all day on countless websites.
my #1 pet peeve
I can totally understand about the strollers. It just seems like in recent years its just gotten worse.
I see the parents side of things, trying to tote around kids, however, I really get annoyed when I see the kid OUT of the stroller and the stroller becomes the baggage cart. I understand that you need to take you and your kids shopping, but really, take a cab home. It'll save you a ton of hassles. And your stroller doesn't need to be huge. There really is no need. If you have too much in tow, see comment above.
I've often wondered if it is illegal to tell mothers to use the handicapped areas. If it isn't, there's no reason why the T can't start a campaign showing customers how to put up the seats. Most Buses have two spots. Just make the drivers aware that only one at a time can be used as a stroller spot. (and of course if 2 wheelchairs get on board, the stroller must move). I've often helped mom's fold up the seat (they really only need to do one section of seats, not both) so they can keep the stroller out of the way.
It just takes a little initiative from the driver, yeah its somewhat confrontational because people might have to move. But the driver should remind folks that improperly parked strollers causes delays. It just takes training passengers to do this, once it becomes the norm, people will realize this and just do it to keep from having a delay.
I just can't tell you how many times I've rode the bus and it gets delayed because of a stroller. I got on one bus one day, and some chick was blocking the aisle to the back of the bus so everything was crowded in the front. I pushed my way by. As she gave me a dirty look, I said "move your stroller". I don't care if people take strollers on the T (people take similar things), its just the down right nastiness and un-courteous the parents are who drive them. Its like MOVE folks, we're all in this together.
I can't even imagine a
I can't even imagine a stroller on a bus. Those things are crowded with just a moderate number of people. Trying to cram a stroller in there seems insane.
Kidding? I see them all the
Kidding? I see them all the time. The other day I was on a bus with 3 strollers.
disney
i went to disney world a month ago, and on every bus that you take to and from any park, there's a sign that says "florida law states that all strollers must be collapsed and carried onto busses." and you know what, everyone abides by it. if it works in a place where there are far more children in the mix and subsequently more strollers than boston, im sure people will be able to get by here.
Do they provide a place to
Do they provide a place to stow a stroller, kind of like a luggage rack in an airport shuttle? If not, I'd be really curious as to just where people are stowing all those strollers!
How about those bike racks on
How about those bike racks on the front?
Easier to fold it
In my stroller toting days, I generally found it easier to fold the stroller for the train/bus portion of the trip than to try wrestling it on to the vehicle. I realize that may not be the case with the monster strollers popular these days, but probably that means such strollers are not the right choice for mixing with transit.
Give Me A Break
People give me a break. If they make people fold up strollers who thinks that will actually speed things up? By making people take their kids out of the stroller, remove any packages from the stroller, fold the stroller up, it will create huge delays and may save a small amount of space. The problems can be resolved more easily by people being courteous and using common sense.
How will "being more
How will "being more courteous" resolve the fact that strollers block the aisle making it difficult if not impassable, as well as block seats reserved for elderly and handicapped? And why are people with strollers exempt from being courteous towards others passengers?
Here's a novel, brilliant idea - while waiting for the T or bus, fold the stroller then. You asked for common sense - there you go.
um, yes.
Previously lived in Houston. Buses there will not allow you to board without first having the stroller folded up, child in arms or walking alongside. No exceptions.
And, what do you know, parents get the thing folded up and the kid seen to before the bus shows up. Speeds boarding, saves space.
It's simply about setting the expectations, demanding that those expectations be met, and then gradually "training" everyone using the system to meet those expectations.
stroller on T
I think folding a stroller with a baby would be extremely difficult. I have an 8 month old and I do not want to do this. I can see how it may be easier for children 3+ years old who can understand that they should get out of the stroller and sit in a seat on the T. One solution is to have a "family section" where strollers are welcome. I would be happy to sit at the back or wherever if it meant I could keep my baby in the stroller and use whatever type of stroller I wanted.
Oh, waaah, you don't want to
I might not want to stop screaming obscenities when I ride the T, but I do, because I'm expected to respect the other people on the T.
If your baby is big and doesn't bear enough weight to help hold him/herself up while being held, you might consider using one of the various slings or the hippie chick seat or any number of things that plenty of people use every day for such purposes. A lot of places don't permit strollers inside, so if you want to go in such places, you can find a way.
Take the MBTA stroller survey
Stroller survey. Even if you're really, really slow, shouldn't take you more than three seconds to fill out - unless you want to explain your answer, which you can.
Streetsblog coverage
http://streetsblog.net/2011/05/02/will-kids-in-str...
it's about time!
I don't mind the regular strollers but the SUV strollers have got to go. I remember back before strollers, there were baby carriages. Then strollers were the smaller alternative. Now the SUV strollers are bigger than the old baby carriages.
No stroller necessary
We took my older son to a daycare downtown from around 18 months to 3 years old. We took a bus to Forest Hills, then the Orange Line downtown. We never took a stroller with us. When his little brother was born, we took them both downtown a few dozen times. I brought a stroller the first time, and swore never to do it again. Even carrying a diaper bag and my work stuff, it was far easier to put the younger one in a sling and hold on to the preschooler's hand. So my sympathy for parents/nannies who insist on bringing monster strollers on busses or trains is fairly limited.
But I'm also one of those mean moms who makes her children walk after age 2 or so. No strollers unless we are going somewhere where we have to walk all day.
i'd agree with this
I had both a relatively large double stroller and an umbrella stroller, and I almost never brought the large double stroller on public transit, which was my primary mode of transit aside from feet. The double stroller was mostly for long walks and outings/errands in our immediate neighborhood. At the beginning, I would have the baby in the sling, then in a backpack, and the older child in the umbrella stroller, then eventually the baby was in the umbrella stroller and the older child was walking. I planned outings with her walking stamina in mind, and I knew the transit system pretty well and rarely got us stuck somewhere where we couldn't hop on the T or a bus if our walking legs started flagging. For a while they would sort of tag team the stroller depending on who was tired....And then everyone got booted out and was required to use their feet! And like someone said, while waiting for the bus there usually plenty of time to fold up and arrange everything. The umbrella stroller had a strap that went over my shoulder, leaving hands free for baby holding and toddler hand holding. It's really pretty easy, and I liked feeling like we could "travel light."
i just want to say that i may
i just want to say that i may look young but i suffer from severe back problems and carrying the smallest bag in the world causes me alot of pain and medical issues, so imagine me having to take my sleeping 9month old son out of his stroller along with his school stuff, folding the stroller (guess ill have to throw him on the ground and watch as he crawls in the street so i can fold it up), and help my 3 yr old on the bus, then i have to hold him and my daughter and the school stuff and the stroller..dam ima need alot of seats. but if i had the stroller id jus need to put up that handicap spot,park my stroller and hold my daughters hand as we stand. diasabled people have babies too. you just never know someones story so you have to stop being so quick to judge. public transportation is the only option for me. i am a single mother, let alone that i am a student and a working citizen. obtaining a car is not as easy as people make it seem. it takes money AND time which is hard to come by. everyone needs to be aware of the space they take up. Not just mothers with strollers. if people pushd in on the bus theyll be more space but everyone wants to stand whereever they feel like it. talk to those people. not the ones who try their best to stay out of the way.
In all seriousness, have you
In all seriousness, have you applied for handicapped status? This stuff isn't aimed at able-bodied people. And it sounds like you could use help. Please take advantage of those policies! It sounds like it'd be helpful!
This is an important antidote
This is an important antidote because a lot of people like to pretend that a stroller is the only option for carting infant children around. It's not.
The problem is the bus layout
Strollers cause problems on buses because the T chose a layout with 2+2 seating, which leaves a narrow aisle.
This also means when there are more than 3 or 4 people standing on the bus, they have no choice but to block the aisle.
2+2 seating would make sense for express buses and longer suburban routes that don't often have crush loads or a lot of turnover, but it's totally inappropriate for crowded city routes.
Even though the problems were obvious as soon as the first low-floor buses arrived, the T continues to buy more buses with the same seating configuration.
It's too bad that the T's poor decision causes problems for stroller users and everyone else.
I've never seen a stroller cause a problem on the subway.
Silly
This is a silly rule for several reasons but here are 4:
(1) Strollers take up just about as much room folded as unfolded.
(2) Its going to be awesome when the person not only boards the train with a giant stroller, but then has to basically push everyone out of the way while they take out their two toddlers and the diaper bag and fold up the stroller (which is still going to be a big stroller, just folded up).
(3) I hope that the Gen. Mgr. will be on the train to hold my 1 year old while I chase my 2 year old down the car. He can also watch my stoller. Same goes for if I have my 1 year old in the sling. My 2 year old isn't going to fold the stroller herself.
(4) The T isn't going to let on strollers, but it lets on bikes, tubas, a guy carrying a keg, an old lady with 10 shopping bags, backpackers, people with suitcases, etc. Come on.
The bottom line is that sometimes you just have to deal with people bringing big stuff on the T. Its public transportation. If you don't like it, move to the burbs.
re: 3
It's really someone else's responsibility to make sure your child is following directions and behaving in public?
ADA Lawsuit
A kid under 3 either can't walk yet or can't safely balance themselves on a T train or bus. Is the MBTA going to put in hand-holds and thinner poles designed for shorter people with smaller hands?
Or will the MBTA like to have this issue decided by a lawsuit based on the Americans with Disabilities Act?
Other cities already require
Other cities already require strollers be folded. Have there been any lawsuits yet?
I think Amtrak, Greyhound, American Airlines, and Metro Cab won't let you have an open stroller on their vehicles, any lawsuits there yet?
Um...
Being a child does not meet the federal definition of having a disability.
I was a child
But I got better
Perhaps hour restrictions would work?
I am sympathetic to parents needing to take strollers on the T, and think it's a bad idea to discourage people from taking transit, but obviously space is at a premium at certain times.
What if strollers were only allowed if folded between 7 and 9 and 4 and 6? You could still get on the T if you had to, you'd just not want to be using a SUV stroller during those hours. If you're just taking the kids to daycare, take an umbrella stroller which is easy to stow. If you're off for a whole day adventure, with the supplies and vehicle to match, it's doesn't seem like a huge hardship to plan around rush hour.
Although I bike, I don't have any problems with the bike restrictions on the T (except possibly the Blue line, since it's so hard to get to East Boston otherwise). If for some reason I must to take the bike on the T (i.e. mechanical problem) I think it's only fair to do it off hours when I'm not going to be slamming into people's shins the whole time.
Kids Have A Right to Ride the T Too
I see the middle ground that you are trying to reach, but by this logic, you might as well say that handicaped people in wheelchairs can't ride at rush hour. Kids are people, not bikes, and they have the right to ride public transit just like everyone else. When they are to little to walk we all just have to tolerate the fact that they ride around in strollers.
And they can, in either a
And they can, in either a normal sized stroller or at other times of the day in a big one.
yep,
That's exactly what I'm saying. Kids and their parents should be welcome with urban sized (foldable) strollers) at rush hour, and with any kind of enormous stroller the rest of the day.
What is a "normal size stroller"?
As someone who only uses folding strollers, I personally agree with what I perceive to be everyone's ire about SUV strollers. That said, what do you consider a "normal size" stroller? Is a double stroller "normal size" as long as it folds? Is everything up to a jogging double stroller normal? Almost all strollers fold. There is no way to create a practical rule if what you are talking about is allowing anyone with a "normal size" on during rush hour but excluding others. If you are talking about excluding all people with strollers during rush hour, see my prior comment. I'd also like to point out that if they make the rule that you have to fold up your stroller before you get on the T, I certainly hope you don't think that is going to speed up your ride. In fact, I'd suggest you start leaving early for work and wearing something you wouldn't mind getting spit up on, because you will be holding my kids while I take everything out of the stroller and fold it up to get on the T.
Hold your kid?
That's OK, I'll put him to work. Licking the snake salmonella off the seats.
Not a natural fact
It's not like it's a fact of nature that kids ride in strollers. Most kids in most of the world have never seen a stroller - and yet they become adults somehow, and their parents even move them from place to place sometimes. As a parent of two children, I find a stroller very convenient for a walk in the park with the little one. But my baby didn't come attached to a stroller, and I don't imagine that the inalienable rights of my child extend to any possible contraption I could purchase for my convenience.
I don't entirely agree with you, Roslindalian.
If a woman has a small infant, she should leave the infant with a babysitter, or a family member who'll watch the baby and take care of it while she's at work, out on errands, or whatever. Any kid who's able to walk should walk. Strollers really don't belong on trains or buses at all.
I don't know if rush hour
I don't know if rush hour restrictions are the answer. I've seen bus aisles blocked by strollers on weekends plenty of times.
jeezis
How do you people manage to live in a god-damned city without popping out your eyeballs with a vein-throbbing shit hemorrhage? Wah! There's a baby stroller in my way! The train smells like talc! Ferchrissakes, be happy the guy sitting next to you doesn't spunk a load in your eye or the train doesn't pull a Fung-Wah and go up in flames. Maybe ask the parent nicely if they could use some help folding up the baby-hummer and if s/he turns out to be a douchenozzle, you can look around at everyone else on the T with a look of superior exasperation and proclaim her to be a douchenozzle.
But if your blood pressure starts to creep up every time someone proves that people can be self-centered weenies >GASP<, you may want to pack up your Ayn Rand first editions and move into the northernmost corner of New Hampshire. Seriously, if we can't figure out how to get into a train and stand there for a while staring off into space ignoring each other, then we as a species are really doomed.
It actually isn't what happens though
"Maybe ask the parent nicely if they could use some help folding up the baby-hummer and if s/he turns out to be a douchenozzle, you can look around at everyone else on the T with a look of superior exasperation and proclaim her to be a douchenozzle"
When I've seen people ask someone to move their stroller out of the aisle (not even to fold it!) or stop bumping someone with it, the stroller owner is often an entitled douchenozzle who says something about how the giant stroller is the only possible way to get a child anywhere, and others around pipe up and back up this assertion.
If a majority of people realized that taking giant strollers on public transportation is disrespectful, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Douchnozzles explained
I think that, once someone has a kid, all the sleepless nights, screaming, and constant diaper shoveling ends up desensitizing the parent to what an imposition the kids are.
And maybe nature selected for people who are very assertive about other people accommodating their children. Just like nature selected for imperialists and invaders.
Our 2nd and 3rd kids were twins
As the parent of twins (now grown), I have sympathy for overburdened parents -- in general. But not for SUV-like strollers taken onto public transportation. These might be fine for walking about, but not for buses. When used for kids who are clearly able to walk (especially when the parent makes no effort to not obstruct the aisle), I must confess feeling a considerable degree of ire.
So simple, folks
You, your child, and yes, even your stroller are allowed on the bus/train, but you are not allowed to block the aisle! It is a safety hazard to everyone, and it causes delays.
If you've got a small stroller, and can move it off to the side in such a way that you are not impeding traffic in the aisle, you're good to go. If you can't, you need to fold it up. Folding an issue for you due to age/number of child/ren? If you expect to be on mass transit frequently, you'll need to obtain a smaller stroller or a completely different mode of carrying the child/ren.
"But other people block the aisle with their luggage!" Well, they shouldn't, and the driver should speak with them. "But other people carry those ginormous back-packs!" Same thing. "But we're being singled out!" Honestly, I don't find myself tripping over luggage all that much, but you are correct that those back-packs should be part of this conversation as well.
Again; don't block the aisle, and no one will say boo to you.
Simple.
Exactly, this is really the issue
And if you do go and block the aisle, please do not start screaming if someone so much as touches the stroller when trying to get by, which I have seen often.
No umbrella stroller in The Untouchables
Anybody who thinks it's so easy to travel with a baby should view that scene in The Untouchables with the baby carriage. Common sense? Not too many Kevin Costner's are on the T these days to lend a hand when one is needed. Now you want those moms folding up the thing to get on the bus? Where do they put the shotguns?
Adam - would it be possible
Adam - would it be possible to get a graph of the topics that engender the most comments?
Prams & pushchairs should be allowed on public transportation
I think that it's outrageous that the MBTA would even consider asking parents to take their infant, baby, toddlers out of their stroller. It's the same as asking the backpacker to leave their backpack behind because it uses space, or ask a person on a weel chair to sit on a seat & fold their chair or heavier people to shrink before getting on the T!
I think that there's a deeper problem than the space on the T, which is respect for all members of society.
Infants, toddlers, and little children should need not be taken out of their strollers, especially when any parent knows that they will want to run around, touch everything, get hurt or crushed (as the T is generally crowded). It's a basic safety precaution to ACTUALLY LEAVE THEM IN THEIR STROLLER!
I just cannot believe that 1st world country is even considering this.
Many cities have this rule
Sometimes it is only during rush hour or when the train/bus is full.
But it is not unusual to have this policy.
I would go further and say
I would go further and say that you shouldn't have to remove your child from the womb.
It's dangerous out there. Someone might kindly ask you to move your stroller out of the way of the aisle. How horrid.
Oh, come off it!
Have you heard of controlling your child? Have you heard of teaching them safe practices? You probably don't ride the 'T often, or at least not with your kids. I take my three on the 'T all the time, and they behave very well, because they understand that they are not in the normal safety zone of the house or car seat.
Strollers with kids in them block the aisles, which is a
big problem. It's a safety issue for both other passengers and the kids in the stroller(s), who stand a chance of getting injured, especially during rush hour on public transportation when it's the most crowded, and people are trying to get on and off at the various bus or MBTA subway stops.
Also, one must bear in mind that the United States is no longer really a first world country. It's rapidly becoming a third-world country, if it isn't one already.
What separates good policy from bad?
What about the mother of twins with a bad back, whose husband has to work two jobs in this economy, who is on her way to a doctor appointment and is using a reasonably sized over-under double stroller? Even if the stroller folds, she can't manage the kids with her bad back. It would be faster to let her on without folding. In that case, it seems reasonable to let three people take up the space of three people. Whatever the policy, there will have to be exceptions.
Don't you think you make your bad back worse?
First of all, don't you think you make your bad back worse when you carry an unfolded stroller, and two kids on the train?
Secondly, if you've got a doctor's appointment, why not arrange in advance to leave the kids with a friend or family member so you don't have to schlep the kids to your doctor's appointment, and cause trouble with your oversized, unfolded stroller with your two kids in it? As many posters here, includig myself, have pointed out, non-folding strollers block the aisle and cause a number of safety issues. You might want to think about altering your strategy somewhat. How about it?
Babies First
I just wanted to share this video. Honestly, I've more or less seen parents behaving like this. Well, okay, similar. I got trapped behind a double and triple stroller once in the BPL. I don't know why the moms thought they could walk around next to each other but they sure as shooting did.