Why not at least look? You don't have to put some Caribbean on a boat if he pees in public one time if you don't think that's socially responsible. That's fair. But Christ, at least check to see if the criminal is here legally or not.
Seriously, why does the wonderful city of Boston continue to associate with this complete joke of a state?
This post doesn't even deserve a cripes. #smh
As long as you have them under arrest, why not check to see if their taxes were filed on time, whether or not they have unpaid parking tickets, and whether the registration on their car has been duly renewed.
If we want to make being here on an expired visa a criminal matter (it is not, now) then Congress should pass such a law and we should enforce it. But until then, it is factually incorrect to call illegal aliens "criminals."
Breaking any law makes you a criminal if convicted. Overstaying a visa is a violation of the law and it states that in the terms of the visa when applying. A visa is a contract with the government, violating contracts is a big no no.
This is a really dumb move by the state. Now we are going to be stuck paying more money to house other countries criminals in our prisons rather than deporting them. This isn't even including all the people whom are abusing the welfare system either.
I think we'll just go by the real laws, not your weird logic, but thanks for your input.
Breaking any law does not make you a criminal. Violating a criminal statute makes you a criminal. There are plenty of laws that are not criminal. I cited several of them in my original post.
as it now stands, entering the country without valid visa is a crime, but it is not a crime to enter on a valid visa and then overstay, which is how many illegal aliens get here. Congress could choose to make that a crime but has not done so.
so it's not illegal to be an illegal in MA.. You must be running for Martha's job when she runs for higher office eh?
Immigration policy is a Federal matter, so Massachusetts laws have nothing to do with the question.
I didn't say its not illegal to be an illegal, I said it's not criminal. You do understand that an awful lot of things prohibited by the law are illegal but not criminal, don't you?
Turning the other cheek is seen as weak and liberal.
expired visa, um I doubt that most of the illegal immigrants came here on expired Visas. Just sayin..
Before they even get out of the car they have checked the status of your vehicle registration, if you do or do not have insurance. Then they take your drivers license and run a full check to see if your license has expired or if you have any outstanding warrants. Then you either get a ticket, or the car gets impounded and you get arrested.
It is factually correct to call people who have over stayed their visa or entered the country criminals. Since over staying a visa, or sneaking in to the country is illegal!!! I have some wonderful friends who came to this country legally, I have helped them study for citizenship tests.
Being pulled over while driving a car is very different from being stopped for questioning while walking down the street. Driving is a special case: There's no legally recognized right to operate a car on the public roads, so the state is entirely within its rights to demand your license, check your registration, etc., which they would not be within their rights to do if they just stopped you while you were not driving.
Once again: please go read the laws before making up your own interpretations: Sneaking into the country is criminal. Overstaying a visa is against the law but is not criminal.
Because we'd have to pay for the man power required to do all that background checking and investigation. Plus more money to the court system to deal with the cases.
In reality, illegals aren't the huge problem the racist wing of the republican party wants you to believe. Hell, Republican business men would rather the issue go away, since they stand to lose the most from losing immigrants.
It's a classic case that the solution is more costly than the problem. Why add more government, rather than relax the rules and create a easier and more clear path to citizenship for those who follow it? (Dem's tried for children, but the GOP was able to block it.)
You also simultaneously can't be against raising taxes, raising the minimum wage, holding businesses accountable for their hiring practices, and deporting every illegal with a civic offense. The racist GOP want's their cake and to eat it too.
There would be very little "new" government. The government already has a system for employers to use to check status. The data is already there, it would just be added to the police's computer (where it already checks your background for priors).
And as far as courts, yeah so clogging up the courts with REAL issues verses the woman that's suing Dunkin Donuts for a diabetic attack caused by an incorrectly made coffee? Really? You'd rather have that than real issues being tried out in courts.
And I can guarantee that in the first year of this program being enacted.. YES there will be an influx of cases, but it will go down as people are weeded out. (hate that term but its appropriate). Im sure these cases would end up being like traffic court anyways because most these cases would be an open and shut case (you're here illegally or not), and the more complex cases would have a full trial (just like traffic court if you request it).
And thanks for grouping me in with a bunch of racists. I'm far from it. I could care less whose race is here illegally (If it was Canadians or The French, I'd feel the same way)
I usually vote Democrat and yes I support immigration and have a ton of immigrant friends. And heck, I live in CHELSEA for god sakes! (and not in Admirals Hill.. I live in downtown just outside of the square, and I love it.)
However I don't support people who do it illegally AND then commit crimes on top of it once they are here. Now, thanks to Patrick, will not be held to any ramifications because they are here illegally then committ crimes. I think if this was signed it might CURB crime as a deterrent.
And cost? your worried about costs???
I'll put aside the usual arguments about welfare, healthcare, and other costs associated with keeping illegal immigrants here. But you're worried about costs?? How about we deport these folks who commit crimes and are here illegally. Then we don't have to PAY for them in our already overly crowded jails.
I apologize to Adam for grandstanding, but I've grown very tired of this debate as BOTH sides seem to think its a very cut and dry issue when its not.
No, we can't keep them here because they broke the law by being here in the first place.
No, we can't build a wall at the mexican border.
No, we can't do a huge 'round up of illegals' and 'send'em home'.
Sorry we can't do any one of those. And why? Cost and effectiveness of it. Its just not feasible or cost effective to do so.
So what do we do? You can't have it both ways. This is a complex issue that is combined with other complex issues that isn't going to go away or be solved overnight. This bill that Patrick won't sign is a start.. and a good start. Don't we ALL agree that we don't want criminals in our neighborhoods? (Not due to illegal immigration, just general crime, ie robbery, murder, assault, etc). Here's a way to curb some of them.
Apparently you've never been to the Southwest or had to compete for jobs in sectors which are dominated by illegals being paid under the table. A lot of the unskilled labor in this country is being gobbled up by illegals since businesses have every incentive to not hire legal immigrants or citizens for more money.
There's already a huge cost to taxpayers, not only from welfare fraud by illegals, but out of payroll taxes not being properly collected or businesses properly taxed thanks to using illegal immigrant laborers. We're subsidizing businesses with our tax money to hire illegals and cheat the tax code. Farmers and whatnot bitch about the possibility of driving the cost of food up, but in reality we are all paying a lot more money elsewhere to pay for these businesses' 'cheap' labor.
A lot of the money earned by illegals doesn't even stay local, it get's shipped back home through remittances. That's a lot different than having poor citizens here at least spreading what little money they have around their own neighborhoods!
I agree Haviland, I wish I had a dollar for every store that does "Wire transfers". And its true they send $$ home, anyone remember the article about the Upper Crust from a few months ago? Clear case of $ being sent home, and not staying local. I really wish the Gov't would start taxing and monitoring these services for $ being exported. (because its not just immigrants that do this, it could be terrorist cells in the US doing the same!)
And yes, why pay someone healthcare benefits, unemployment insurance, and any other costs associated with hiring a legal employee when you can just pay someone cash for the same job (and albeit a lot less than if they were a legal employee). Its very attractive to employers who have unskilled people. And in THIS state where healthcare is required for employers who have more than 6 employees, its a crock.
you are implying that there is something the free market can't fix? You are telling me that hardworking patriotic small-business owners, the lifeblood of this country, can't be trusted to hire legal Americans because they can save a buck with illegals, and that the government should be controlling this through taxation and monitoring?
What are you, comuniss?
if you don't like criminals or people here illegally then you absolutely must be a right wing racist.
It's been documented about how xenophobic and right wing racists groups have been toning down their rhetoric and broadening their attacks to try to co-op the far right of the Republican party. As far as I can tell, they've been succeeding.
And you're gonna sit there and tell me the attacks on his citizenship, otherness,, and crap like this isn't based in Racism?
You added the last two words in there yourself. You are clearly a racist.
Why do anything that would limit the pool of people who will vote Democrat and vote often?
And he's against the program, too.
Only because the cop might have to do a few more clicks of a mouse in a computer. I sense if this did get signed, The police would be looking for yet another raise since they wouldn't see this apart of their normal duties, when rather, it really is.. upholding the law is the #1 job of the police)
how about we raise taxes enough to cover the cost of the pricey police hours (at applicable overtime rates, natch) that will accompany this?
Why not fine the people who broke the law and got caught to pay for continued enforcement of the law?
We have two options, deport them or jail them.
If we jail them taxpayers are on the hook, as we always are. If we deport them, we'll never see the money since they're now under the jurisdiction of another nation.
So this is where you're supposed to suggest we kill them, right?
Let them get real licenses but make them pass the drivers test and charge them $1,000 to get a license and $1,000 to renew their registration. Or make it $500 a piece.
You get arrested and you are an illegal? Instead of $40 in court costs, make it $400.
Excise tax? Double it for them.
There are plenty of other options you could use. But I still think as a whole, illegal immigrants help the Massachusetts economy. As for Texas, California, or Alabama? Maybe not.
30%'er view of the "law". You throw them in jail, or deport their brown ass.
Which goes to show you how ridiculous the right wing of the GOP is. I guess the third option would be to jail them, until they can buy their way out.
But civilized nations did away with that kind of wrongheaded thinking back in the 17th century.
And what if their ass isn't brown, but rather the pasty white of the Emerald Isle?
"Oh. That's different."
Isn't there a WF somewhere for you to protest?
I doubt that most illegal immigrants have all that much money to begin with. Besides, it would be a perverse incentive, encouraging the police to prioritize arresting people from whom they could get money, rather than, say, people who have committed major or dangerous crimes. I'd rather that police resources were spent on murderers, on drunk drivers, on white collar criminals that steal millions of dollars or more, rather than on checking the papers of dishwashers and gardeners. Especially if the illegal immigrants are -- other than how they got here -- law abiding people.
Illegals vote for democrats?
So now you're saying there is rampaging voter fraud?
Considering I've been multiple ballots at various polling places during my lifetime in this state, I'd say likely yes. Whether the majority is duplicate voters, illegals, nonresident citizens, paid off homeless people, or the dead, well figuring that out... much less proving it, probably would be impossible.
Even with free state ID cards to citizens and an ID requirement for voting, the system still could be manipulated. So I think we will always have to live with some margin of fraud unless there's some sort of network of poll watchers. But even that could be problematic due to 'voter intimidation' or privacy issues.
I've pulled over dozens of illegal immigrants and arrested them(for not having a US license). None of them have ever given me a hard time, none of them. Becuase they know they aren't going to get deported if they get arrested. From my perspective, I don't want to see cops getting hurt, or car chases because some illegal is afraid he is going to lose his family.
I also don't have any problem with illegals in Massachusetts for the most part. Most of them work hard, don't abuse welfare or health care, and actually help American companies. Sure, if an American employer is exploiting workers or the tax laws, then thats wrong too, but I don't think there is a problem in MA with illegals.
That being said, it wouldn't be that expensive to check the immigration status, but it might be expensive to detain them and send them back somewhere.
It's people have a problem, the most cost effective and sensible solution is to go HARD after employers. If the costs of getting caught hiring them is big enough, then the market will price them out.
But it won't happen, because big agriculture has long used migrant workers to harvest crops. It would directly hurt their bottom line.
The jobs argument has always been a red herring. These people are mostly taking the jobs in areas that Americans don't want to work. Plus, their contributions to the Economy are never brought up as well (AZ is having even more troubles due to large immigrant populations leaving American businesses with no clientele.)
My grandparents signed their name in a book, got a checkup, and worked hard to make a life here in the states. There's no reason to deny Latinos the same. It's makes us stronger and more competitive.
I don't know the specifics, but I'm pretty sure US agriculture can hire non-resident aliens under different circumstances than other US companies.
And most don't have them, at least in other states.
I agree, go hard after employers, and also the ex-governors that get cut rate lawn service from the deal
Altogether doubtful, really.
Voting fraud by the means of actually submitting fraudulent votes at the polling place is pointless and probably very unlikely to happen in real life. It requires too many people for too little gain. Conspiracies work better the fewer people are involved, and tend to be cheaper too.
Real voting fraud is probably going to happen inside the organizations that are responsible for elections. Electronic voting machines can be hacked (there have been plenty of demonstrations of this), or simply rigged (IIRC there were some convictions for this in KY a few years ago). Votes can be 'lost' or 'found' as the people counting them need.
Then there are ways that a party in control of a legislature can manipulate or change the rules to favor themselves. Large swathes of voters can be locked out of the system by passing laws to disenfranchise felons, then cracking down disproportionately on certain groups that you feel are likely to vote against you. This can be enhanced by sweeping up other people when you purge names from the voting rolls. Gerrymandering voting districts is also a popular tactic to kneecap democracy. And as you note, it's possible to intimidate voters from even going to the polls, e.g. by setting up police roadblocks along the way to check for people who may have broken the law, but nevertheless still have at that time every right to vote.
You're right that there will probably always be some fraud, but it wastes resources to look only in one direction, and should one group of voters associate a rival group with persons suspected of voting more than once, or voting unlawfully, it seems like a way to simply stir up conflicts falsely.
The immigration issue is so tiresome. The amount of scapegoating and lame-ass "what part of illegal don't you understand" simplifications and outraged "how dare you call me racist/unsympathetic to immigrants/outright assface-fuck-wad" retorts is just way past the time to retire it stage.
Let's face it, if we want to have a standard of living (and 'we' means the 1-5% of this country that is sucking everything away from the middle class) that requires the rest of the planet to be subjected to our armies and exploitative foreign economic policy, then get used to waves of immigrants, 9-11 tragedies, "oh god why do they hate us," "They hate our freeeedumb" and of course environmental instability (overwhelming borne on the backs of the suckas in other countries and our own poor). We are the first generation of Americans who will have it worse than our parents. The middle and working classes of America are getting butt-fucked by the rich who then tell us "Wow, did you see what the starving, poor brown guy did to you?" while wiping their dicks off on the Constitution and the majority of this country jumps for it. Fucking pathetic.
Go down to the Holocaust monument downtown and read the Niemöller quote. If you think that things like "Secure Communities" stop with the "illegals" you are kidding yourself. What's that? You got nothing to hide? Go back and read the monument again...