Twitfight: South End coffeehouse vs. now former customer
By adamg - 5/23/11 - 10:01 pm
Not a clue who's right in a brewing war between Jaho Coffee and Tea and Dtewfik, who was kicked out the place tonight, but their Twitter conversation certainly is entertaining if you're a fan of insulting Twitter hashtags.
Comments
Why so tense?
Bob...why so tense?....you douchebag.
Hate to see this...
But I side with the owner. One of the nasty side effects of the recession were folks parking it in spaces with free wi-fi and declaring it their office. Toscanini's would just shut it off when it got really bad. JP Licks would get audible grumbling when they knocked everyone off the connection.
Arnold Worldwide is serving up a nice helping of smug on the tweets though? Oh really? The BUSINESS looks bad? Afraid not, as they just rid themselves of a leech that was sucking up all their turnover. For every disgruntled wi-fi squatter, there are five to 10 other people who just want to come in for a cup of coffee and either have a place to sit or not get shhhhed. Post-recession coffee shop owners all came out of the economic crisis secure in one bit of knowledge: They're not running fucking libraries.
Correction
Toscanini's would just not pay their taxes when it got really bad.
I hate shhhhh-ing coffee houses
I rarely take the laptop out to work at one, but I prefer coffee houses with caffeine-fueled conversations all around me and good music played at good volume. It's a nice backdrop to work against, if I am working outside the home. "They're not running fucking libraries." is spot on.
To each their own
I think there is room and market for both the caffeinated monastery and the bustling java joint. You just go where the environment suits you best (and note that I'm with you on the bustling - so long as I'm not hearing about your dad's colostomy at full volume ...). I remember one time when one woman at a coffee shop scored an interview. Within five minutes, another offered to loan her a suitable outfit and a third person offered to get her kid at school that day in exchange for another afternoon since the event would likely spill past school hours. Community in action!
True Grounds instituted a no-camping schedule for the WiFi - when they are busy with lots of people getting breakfast and lunch and need the tables available and need them to turn over quickly, they shut the WiFi off. The are very up front about the schedule and the need for it.
I'm a fan of picking up on social cues
When I'm in a coffee place that has two or more seating areas, one with desk-type/bar-type seating and one with living-room-type seating, and every person in the desk-type seating is silently reading a book or working on a laptop, and most of the people in the living-room-type seating are chatting, and there are empty spots in each section, then yes, I'm going to be a little annoyed if you plunk down in the middle of the silent section and start yapping.
And no, I know no one is obligated to provide me with a quiet workspace or anything, but it would be nice if people could think of others and read social cues a bit instead of this attitude that everyone in public is anonymous and not affecting one another.
Jaho's twitter profile
So, if water is my favorite beverage, I can't sit down with it and relax. Hmmm.
And, on their website, their slogan appears to be "live slow". But not as slow as the poor sap who showed up when the owner was having a grumpy day.
If water's your favorite beverage...
and you're paying for it, you're a fool. Local water is just as pure and potable than anything you're shelling out $2 for -- and 90% of that cost is going toward a plastic bottle, cap and label. If your favorite beverage is water, go to your sink, fill up a bottle and take it to your favorite public space that doesn't rely on turnover to keep its business afloat.
That "poor sap" wasn't "living slow," he was living at the business' expense. That's not supporting local business, that's bleeding it dry.
Water is ok :)
Hey, I'm the owner. Water is fine, we sell Poland Spring, Fiji, Perrier, San Pellegrino. As I mentioned on Twitter, it's not about the money at all, just common courtesy. Buy something for $1 and you can sit there all day. Seriously, no one will bother you or ask you to leave, from 6:30AM to 7:30PM.
I agree, but...
I'm totally with you, Anil. I agree. But... for a place that has such a chill motto, you seem awfully un-chill. And discourteous. To a customer -- good or bad. I'm sure there's a nicer way to handle stuff like this. A discourteous (or slow) customer (in your view) should not beget more discourtesy.
Adam's right on one point...
They're certainly both twits.
Water drinker was confused
I think the customer was confused. Sitting around, not buying anything, using free wi-fi? He must have thought he was at Starbucks.
coffee shops are not study halls
Bravo to a coffee shop telling one of the one-cup-of-coffee-entitles-me-to-a-table-for-hours brats to GTFO.
Also: what legitimate reason do you have for coming into a coffee shop and *not* ordering a coffee when you come in, but asking for a water?
amen. go to a library. leave
amen. go to a library. leave the chairs and tables for customers (!) who only want them for a little while at a time.
It wasn't even that, it
It wasn't even that, it appears they're ok with that!
The problem was setting up shop and not buying a thing. Even if you intend to purchase something later, It is pretty rude to ask for a free cup of water, set up shop, and not buy anything.
At least BUY a water. Or a snack. Coffee shops are not offices, they have rent and wages to pay. The world also doesn't revolve around you.
Is it really a problem?
If I come in and wait 30 minutes, buy a coffee, then leave 30 minutes later...or if I come in, order a coffee, and stay for an hour, then ultimately, I stayed the same amount of time and paid the same amount of money. The only difference is whether the owner was comfortable gambling whether I'd actually buy something in the first 30 minutes of the former option.
I see it as the difference between the hard sell (you must buy something to be allowed to sit down) or the soft sell (come in and enjoy yourself, but please remember we rely on you to keep the doors open for your enjoyment). Study after study in recent years have shown soft selling works better. The hard sell is more irritating to consumers in general and turns off sales. This coffee shop even went above and beyond the hard sell to even antagonize the guy on Twitter. What's that look like to potential consumers? How long did the original stalling customer's seat stay empty after he got kicked out without a sale? Was it worth it?
Yes, it's really a problem
You're assuming a level of trust that the store owner has no obligation to provide, especially at the 30 minute mark. If you transfer this over to the barroom, even regulars are obliged to make ordering a drink their first priority. They can nurse that beer all they'd like, but the bartender at least has some reasonable expectation of reimbursement. A coffee shop owner who's just sitting there watching you set up camp for 10 to 20 minutes wondering what's in it for him is going to get a little antsy -- especially if you're a sporadic customer and a repeat offender.
Study after study about hard sell vs. soft sell didn't contain the added variables of economic conditions. Assuming current credit restrictions and 9% unemployment, do those studies still apply when the store owner's trying to pay South End retail rent and his potential clientele has seemingly no interest in helping him accomplish that end? Amid the current climate, reaction to those studies would likely be the same reflected in this comments field and others -- during hard times, the guy with the small business needs all the help he can get and the guy who wants to use his storefront as an office should make a good-faith "donation" for the privilege -- i.e. buy something and don't string the owner along.
I guarantee you that the rantings of one non-customer who feels entitled to a table by his mere existence is "more irritating" than the owner who throws him out. Remember, that customer began the exchange with his antagonistic tweet that he marked with the store's twitter name just to throw it in their face. The owner responded, because that's what you do when protecting a business, and the non-customer threw a fit. To a potential customer, the owner's response -- especially his response in the comments field here -- tells me that I'm going to not only be treated well for making a purchase there, but that I'm not going to have to jockey for table space with non-customers who didn't make the same investment.
I didn't know this place existed before this exchange happened. Now I'd go just because I know I'll get quick, appreciative service and a place to sit for my money.
"How long did the original stalling customer's seat stay empty after he got kicked out without a sale?" If no money is being spent in either scenario, it's a wash. Besides, with Gus at Tosca's and Vincent at JP Licks taking a similar tact with squatters and Java Jo's being driven out of business by the same, it doesn't appear these businesses care too much about losing "customers" who suck up the air for half an hour before their wallet chain makes even the slightest jingle.
Daniel Tewfik
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dtewfik
His current job is working as a "research assistant" in "social networking research".
Here's what he looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGctTCdGZe4&feature=player_profilepage#t=107s
Oh, he also apparently works for MyBike:
http://www.mybikeonline.com/about.php
What do you say we all show up at MyBike offices and ask for glasses of water?
Check that resume...
his prior business experience is as a barista at Starbucks and South End Buttery. I pity South End Buttery if that's who they're asking to mind the shop and turn tables. JohnAKeith's Starbucks comment was spot on.
Why all the hate?
How many of you even go to coffee shops? Have you ever stayed longer than it took for them to make your coffee and walk out the door? To do what?
Drink your coffee and stare at the walls? Chat with a friend? And when you went to do that, did you find every chair taken or something? I mean, I've been in busy coffee houses, but I can't remember the last time I couldn't find somewhere to sit if I wanted to stay. I mean, does the fact that you come and go while others stay some how offend your sense of order or something?
Full coffee shops
Many times I have gone to Diesel Cafe in Davis Square and had to wait around for a table or else leave to go elsewhere. And their Wi-fi isn't even free. People stay there for hours.
Absolutely right
In fact, the guy from Cambridge Day made that same point on UHub just a few weeks ago. You're screwing your "favorite" business when you do this.
I was trying to remember
I was trying to remember where I read an article about this such subject, and now how many coffee houses are REMOVING the tables and the free wifi to prevent squatters. With higher rents, increased coffee prices, I can see why owners are getting 'bitchy' about squatters.
Like people have said about Diesel, its a turn OFF to walk into a place, grab a sandwich, and NOT be able to sit down because half the tables are taken up by people who got a lemon water and are working on a laptop. I kinda refuse to even attempt to go to Diesel for this very reason.
In Europe, sitting down at a coffee house is almost unheard of. Its more like Dunkin Donuts. You walk in, order, get your coffee, and leave. If you want to sit down, you go to an Internet Cafe instead.
We can thank Starbucks for this "come sit and surf" mentality. They started it, and funny, Starbucks is trying to get away from this model now.
I've never understood why people sit and try to 'work' at a coffee house. I find it more distracting than anything else. And I third the opinion.. this isn't a library!
Maybe this is a way to save Libraries, lets put coffee bars in them!
If Starbucks wants to get away from this model ...
why did they recently change from paid to free wi-fi?
Fewer tables
Starbucks outlets are being remodled to have more barstools and fewer tables. This discourages "spreading out" of a lot of homework, papers, etc.
As for coffee bars in libraries ... its been done
Thank you Swirly! I Knew I
Thank you Swirly! I Knew I read that somewhere and wasn't making it up. DO you remember the article that said that?
Just guessing....
Maybe, just maybe, there's a little bit more to the story than we're being told. I'm guessing that, like the waitress that got fired for not showing up on New Year's Day, there's some history here between the shop and the water drinker, and it came to a head with the twitfight.
Maybe.
Peet's Policy is a good one
The last time I was in a Peet's, they handed me a code, several characters long, with my receipt. The code allowed me to log in to their wi-fi for exactly one hour. That turned out to be more time than I needed, but I'll bet if I'd have gotten another coffee or pastry after an hour they'd have given me another hour of wi-fi access.
I think that's a much better idea than chasing out the freeloaders, entertaining as it was to read about it.
I've also heard about places in Manhattan that do things like shut off internet completely during peak hours, etc.
Ridiculous.
There's no excuse for this kind of cheapskate crap. Coffee made and served by someone else in a clean, well-lighted place is not an unalienable right. "I'm going to order a coffee in ten minutes?" huh? So come back in ten minutes, dude. Have some common sense and some empathy for the business you're patronizing (which is not a Starbucks, obviously--these kind of places run on a pretty tight margin) and at least try to act in good faith. Ugh--I don't even believe that he thought this was Twitter-worthy. If you can afford a Smartphone, you can afford a $2 cup of coffee.
Maybe he wanted to drink his water first
Then drink the coffee hot. The place says that he came in before and just ordered water (from the tap, I presume), hung around, then split. The guy says he never did that. So, IMO, it's a he said/she said thing, with some rudeness thrown into the mix. Of course the shop is within its rights, but a reputation for rudeness and ballbusting might not be good for business. If most customers have a good experience, then the shop's got nothing to worry about. Time will tell, I guess.
What you call "a reputation
What you call "a reputation for rudeness and ballbusting" I call getting rid of leaches. The customer is not always right. Bad customers drag a business down, and the sooner you get rid of them, the better. There's nothing wrong with having a bad reputation among parasites.
Well, there you go.
Sounds like this might be your kind of place. No need to look at a menu, cut to the chase, wolf down your scone or whatever and gtfo. Like I said, if the majority of customers have a good experience, the business will probably do fine.
You realize that...
In your attempt a to defend your friend's behavior, you're completely jumping the gun? As the owner has said, people are welcome to sit and stay as long as they like, so this self-pitying drama about having to bolt your scone and gtfu is absurd. Again--this is not a McDonalds or a Starbucks--I don't even know this cafe, but the coffee business is not one you go into because you're a money-grubbing hard-ass. It's hospitality and sometimes people abuse that hospitality. I'm not saying it's criminal, just juvenile and kind of sad that this guy feels so entitled to take up space indefinitely in someone's business without making a purchase.
The customer is sometimes wrong
But the customer is ALWAYS the customer. Just my view.
a customer
A customer isn't the customer...
I'm guessing this spat did more good PR for this shop than bad.
"Come, sit, enjoy our free WiFi, but just purchase anything ($1 even!) and we're good!"
That seems perfectly reasonable, and anyone in retail, hospitality, or customer service knows exactly the kind of "victim" this other guy appears to be playing. I didn't even know about this place, but now I do.
He took offense to getting caught and cried about it on the net, where everyone's laughing at him. This obviously also wasn't his first time using their services without being a patron.
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday
... for your free wifi today!
so important
I love how there are 22 comments about a twitter fight about coffee in between news posts about real violence in the city...
Sheesh...
Because what the hell are you supposed to say about another kid getting shot? Seriously. There are things I feel inclined or qualified to weigh in on--coffeehouse etiquette is one; teenagers murdering each other is not. Taking this as some kind of sign of what's important to people or getting all high-horsey about it is ridiculous.
hey now...
....that's our favorite thing to do, get all high, horsey.
Neighhhhhhhhhhhh!
I just prefer to be the highest horse around here.
Bait Taken
We should be buying these kids coffee - they probably have undiagnosed or untreated ADHD and it will calm them down and they won't shoot people.
Happy?
Maybe you should start your own thread about your great project aimed at preventing gun violence and how people here could help you.
Most Universal Hub participants drink coffee
or go to places that sell coffee, whether that be Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks, or your favorite independent place.
Most of us don't shoot at other people, nor do we get shot at, so we don't have as much to say about that experience.
Speak For Yourself, Ron
I have so many bullet holes in me, coffee dribbles all over my shoes when I drink it. And I've shot so many baristas, they call me The Decaffeinator.
(I know those aren't the best jokes, but it's a freakin' anonymous troll we're talking to. Who gives a shit?)
Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Suldog...
It's not a glock, it's a "coffee-letter-outer."
Stop making me laugh like that
or I'll kick you in your coffee-letter-outer.
Heh
There should be a polling mechanism of some sort to see how many readers get semi-obscure references, Adam. I did (and laughed, too, Swirly) but I'd really be interested in seeing how many folks I might expect to catch every Three Stooges or Tom Lehrer reference I make, and I bet you'd like to know if an AIRPLANE bit you work into a headline is being noticed.
Wellington J. Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com
Someone...
Has too much time on their hands (yeah, yeah, I am guilty as well given that I did a yelp.com search): http://www.yelp.com/biz/jaho-coffee-and-tea-boston
Not sure who is wrong and who is right. But the kid definitely comes off as a douche.
Go Jaho
Absolutely side with the owner on this one, even if their tweets are a tad too personal. It's tough to keep the business/personal wall maintained at all times, and something like this douchebag's comments popping up on Yelp, Twitter, Reddit, etc, would definitely ruffle my feathers.
To Dtewfik; 10 minutes is actually a LONG time to be sitting and not ordering at a coffee shop - certainly more than enough time to get yourself settled in. Why didn't you want to order yet? Was there a reason you were waiting?
And for the record, Jaho hasn't deleted any of the tweets that you posted in your "deleted tweets" reveal. They're all still there in the Jaho feed.
Pay your rent or move on
I recently sat next to a table of six holding a business meeting in a coffee shop. Briefcases, laptops, legal papers being signed, one empty cup of coffee between all of them. The single cup sat for at least the five or so minutes I waiting to get served, the time I stood around waiting to sit so I needn't juggle my items (five or ten minutes?), and then 20 minutes I was there with my tea & pastry.
Finally another patron, one of the several who'd been floating around waiting for a seat to open up, asked if they were moving soon.
They got nasty, and then told the person who had the temerity to ask to move away as this was "a private meeting". At that point another patron corrected them, that this was a public space, and if they didn't get shopping or leave he'd post online all of their last half hour's negotiations they'd had, that he'd had to overhear.
One of the entitled campers started to get rude, used the word "sue", but the others had sense to realize his inanity, shushed him, and took their meeting off to more agreeable climes. Frankly my only complaint was the venue hadn't done more for their patrons left in the lurch all the while.
I'm a semi-regular there, but also resent standing around while folks take up tables for personal business when I just want a place to consume my purchased goods. It's great you can 'work from home' - that ain't it & I just want my few minutes of table time.