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Programmers' get-together loses sponsors with crack about women
By adamg on Tue, 03/20/2012 - 6:07pm
BostInnovation chronicles the firestorm over an upcoming "hackathon" that promised its brogramming attendees women beer attendants.
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If the sexism doesn't scare away any potential new friends...
...the bad clothes, poor social skills, and mediocre coding probably will.
Seriously, this is why 99% of programming get-togethers are a shitshow. And I'm a dude. Just because you're into computers doesn't give you a pass to be a soda-swilling, gaming-obsessed, foot-picking pillock. And just because you make money off people who are into computers doesn't mean you're an entrepreneur ("JUST LIKE REV. STEVE JOBS OR PAUL GRAHAM!@#@!!@OMG!").
Jesus, this makes me hate being a programmer.
Amen.
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's EVERYWHERE in this industry, and brings out a brand of stubborn misogyny I've never seen anywhere else outside of a high school cafeteria.
Probably the worst part is their "official apology," in its "we're sorry you were offended by our harmless words" bullshit non-apology splendor. Gee, how could we have possibly anticipated this firestorm of controversy we've brought down on our own heads... who knew those broads were so sensitive? Are we right, guys?
All it was missing was a "we're hella sorry" signoff.
denigrating sexist comment in thread about misogynist marketing?
"...the bad clothes, poor social skills, and mediocre coding probably will. [...] soda-swilling, gaming-obsessed, foot-picking pillock"
So, let me get this straight: you're commenting on a story about misogynistic jokes made by some ORGANIZERS...
...by making denigrating and insulting comments about male programmers?
Wow. Just...wow. "Dude", I've met a lot of programmers and IT people that had more diverse interests than an entire sales and marketing team. Brewing, cooking, baking, wood/metal working, climbing, hiking, cycling, diving, gaming, musical instruments, fire spinning, all manner of arts and crafty things...in fact, it's usually the technical people which have the most interesting hobbies.
Oh, please, man. I've worked
Oh, please, man. I've worked with programmers for a decade, and the stereotype described is one a large number in that group assume giddily and with an inscrutable pride. I'm denigrating the role these kinds of guys slide right into and wear like a Bawlz-stained ThinkGeek t-shirt. You sound like the old white guys on Fox News, claiming Rick Santorum's the real victim in the debate over women's reproductive rights.
There's a serious problem in the industry. The programmers tend to be proud of the priggishness, and their handlers tend to be chinos-draped asshats who imagine that their latest Getting Things Done time-management iPhone app puts them in the same class as Preacher Steve. Don't presume to lecture me about how "diverse" programmers are. The vast majority are white males with very, very narrow interests. The culture of the discipline encourages that stereotype, and the all-juvenile-male culture of gaming and "geeks-are-cool-now" encourages misogyny (witness the abberant frequency with which one finds pickup-artist - 'PUA' - material among programmers). And you get this kind of crap. And then you get the apologists who either don't know what they're talking about or are defending the whole Hot-Pocket-fueled system because they love it almost as much as Gabe Newell.
Spare me the outrage. Programmers need to get out more and stop being pudding heads.
I didn't apologize for anyone, and you didn't answer me.
I said that it was absurd to, in the same breath as complaining about misogyny, to commit misandry. You didn't respond to that, and you just can't seem to stop:
"The vast majority are white males with very, very narrow interests."
Here's some actual statistics for you:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf
20%-40% of technology jobs are held by women, depending on the subfield. DBAs and web designers tend to be more towards 40%; other computer jobs are more like 20%. The scales are tipped disproportionally towards asians and away from latinos.
Just because you've worked with some ComicBookGuy types doesn't mean everyone fits that S T E R E O T Y P E.
"witness the abberant frequency with which one finds pickup-artist - 'PUA' - material among programmers)
I've never had a single discussion with anyone, or overheard anything, about "PUA" in my entire career. I'm pretty sure everyone in the technology field that I know would consider it the same way everyone outside would: douchy.
"geeks-are-cool-now" encourages misogyny"
LOOOOOOOLwhuut? Did you see how fast the sponsors pulled support? You do realize that women who get into nerdy stuff like electronics are encouraged and celebrated, right? And that the geeky/nerdy community tends to strongly value accomplishments and skills over physical attributes?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth
She's practically a superstar because of the amazing, unique shit she's constantly doing as a hobbyist.
You know, it's pretty fucking hilarious that the geek/nerd community's interests have finally become somewhat accepted and "cool", you're faulting them for that pride and self-worth (something feminists encourage in women, and is encouraged in the GLBT community), and claiming that misogyny and sexism is inbuilt to "geek" and "nerd" culture. That's about as stupid as claiming that man-hating is inbuilt to feminism.
Geek Culture on the Skidz
Oh, yeah. You're right. The existence of Jeri Ellsworth means that the computer programming industry is chock-full-o'-women. It's not true. And there's no way that BLS statistic is accurate. I've worked with exactly two female programmers across something like a dozen shops on both coasts and in "Real America". There's just no way. To paraphrase Mark Twain, "There are lies, damn lies, statistics, and this bullshit."
I wasn't saying that "geek-culture" is cool. People who like to identify as "geeks" may think it's cool now. It's not. It's farce as fashion.
And, please, don't confuse disdain for technical types embracing the stereotype of the socially awkard, minimally hygienic shut-in "geek" with "misandry". That's one hell of a stretch. Frank Luntz would be proud.
My entire point is that "geek culture" (or whatever you're imagining it is) isn't cool. Sure, hip kids may use the internet and talk about Apple products and typefaces and Tumblr, but that doesn't mean the thirty-five-year-old translucent-skinned paladin-driver down the hall who writes Lisp all day and plays WoW all night is now at the pinnacle of fashion. That guy is now pushed even further into the social margins because he's been led to believe this narrowness and marginal status is somehow desirable. Then you get guys who honestly think it's cute to make really awkward jokes like the one that started this furor.
Oh, and just so we maintain parity here, here's a wildly unrelated link to a Wikipedia article about a woman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snooki
Did you not understand?
All Brett really wants you to know that what we silly women think is hateful misogyny really it isn't hateful hating unless a man like him thinks it is and gives us permission to find it offensive.
Silly girl.
Not me, not where I work
I've been coding for more than a decade and while I've seen this type of programmer I wouldn't say they are the norm.
We all know...
Chicks dig stellar coding skillz.
hey Sqoot! Ever heard of Grace Hopper? or Ada Lovelace?
Seemed like an obvious joke
And rather than being misogynistic, it made fun of the attendees. People need to relax a bit and stop seeing hate in everything they happen to read.
Nope.
It was bad form, and they showed no contrition.
i demand beer wenches
who cares about these knee-jerk ninnies crying at every opportunity....misogyny wah wah wah, who cares, dont like it - dont go, simple as that, mind your effing business. all this political correctness bullshit is amusing and sad.
would you rather have lard ass Mcneckbeard serving you, or would you rather have women beer attendants, its not that complicated, but im guessing it was the female fundies that started this panty-bunchathon ::sigh::
Trooooollllllll
Don't you have a bridge to guard somewhere?
some journalist you are huh
some journalist you are huh Chairman Gaffin, Censor away
Miss O'Genie
Yes, she turned you down, too.
Political correctness: term invented by white male losers who don't think they have to pay attention to the shit they spew because being white and male makes them "special".
Seems like the only person who is whining is the one with the problems keeping his mouth under control of his brain, no?
Sorry if acting like a human being is tooo harrrrrd for your testosterone-damaged brain.
Esta gente si jode...
I like how u assume im white LOL unlike your homogeneous @$$ I hail from a colorful people
try again you pseudo-anthropologists, your racism is showing btw, not sexy
I want to be served by somebody who knows their beer
If they are beautiful and sexy, so much the better, but first order of importance is that they can answer my questions about how the beer was made and stored. Overall, I agree with you, and am sticking with my position that this is harmless humor. Have any of the people critiquing the flyer ever been to a convention? Tech nerds did not invent the concept of convention babes. Are these advertisers prepared to boycott all conventions? Personally, I do find the concept offensive, but the joke, not really. Not at all, in fact.
Equal Opportunity
I'd agree, if they promised handsome male beer servers for their female attendees, but I didn't see that on the list. Or maybe female programmers aren't welcome at their shindig... hmmm....
Or gay programmers
Even a sausagefest needs male eye candy, no?
women are not a "perk"...
... dubbing one of your "perks" as having lots of "friendly (female) events staff" sort of makes them sound a lot like whores. what it does not make them sound like is a valued asset to the coder community and to the greater tech community. it's a tough field to be female in, and references like that just reinforce that problem.
it was a lame attempt at humor, but one at the expense of half the population. thus - sexist and offensive, and not so funny.
Really just not seeing it
This is making fun of male programmers. It's saying that they are so geeky that they can only meet an attractive woman if she is serving him a beer. Some times sexual connotation is not sexism. If you want to get upset about something, get upset about the fact that all conventions have convention babes. In my opinion, that's where the sexism lies, not in the implication that the convention goer doesn't have any other opportunity to be near a model.
It's a joke, it's funny, nobody is suggesting or demanding a sexual quid pro quo. I understand the issue, but targeting the joke on a flyer rather than the actual activity seems misplaced.
Then again
At least you're half right.
And one more thing, half the population?
Really? Is half the population attending this event? You're using a shot gun to make a much more narrow point. Is this really where society is failing women?
What this says to women
YOU DON'T BELONG HERE UNLESS YOU ARE HAWT AND SERVING BEER, BITCH.
It is called "hostile environment", and one reason women don't pursue this line of work in numbers proportional to their performance in high school relative to males is this message right here, which is reinforced by exactly this sort of bullshit.
Of course "what's the big deal" is another form of "I have a few black/gay friends" when it comes to bigots.
actually my point is rather broad...
... this is but one example of where society is failing women. but the fact that it is a small example doesn't make it not an issue. i have ample time. i can comment on the big picture and the small picture alike.
for example - much larger issue is that women in massachusetts earn 80.5% of their male counterparts. and we are the second highest state in the union in terms of median female wages. it's a big issue, and hard to tackle. we *are* failing women.
smaller issue is that a bunch of folks put together an event and didn't take into account some of their target audience or their sponsors. and when they were caught printing something douchey, they made a half-assed apology-that-wasn't-an-apology, and then in their second apology tried to pretend they were making a political statement about the role of women in technology.
it doesn't fly.
this is the same dumb move that yahoo did when they hired female lap dancers at their hack day taiwan event. which was interesting because yahoo had also done the same thing at a previous event.
it's not an isolated incident, it's a trend. we keep failing women.
Not an isolated thing.
It's not just this flyer. It's our lives, espcially if we work in a male-dominated field. It's the sexist jokes we're supposed to laugh at, the unwanted attention that we're supposed to manage perfectly so no guy's feelings get hurt, the fact that guys keep getting paid better and promoted more no matter how good we are, and the general political atmosphere right now that targets and threatens us in ways that most guys seem to be completely oblivious about. Some days it feels like it's everywhere, and we're just plain sick of it. So yeah, it was just a flyer. But it's our world. If you lived in it, you'd be pissed off, too.
Nicely put.
Nicely put.
FIRST WORLD PROBLEM
spare me toots, yall got it good over here in 'Merika, be thankful for the progress made thus far...
I like how you assume you are "good" ever take a second for some introspection? Maybe its not the big bad men keeping you own, might just be that you suck as an employee
Really?
Because the out-of-control woman hating going on across the US is leaving us with 3rd world access to reproductive rights.
and yet they can still vote,
and yet they can still vote, work alongside men, get plan B (never doubt a womans ability to acquire plan B, bigoted politicians or not)
And yet women still pay far
And yet women still pay far more on average for goods and services, are far more likely to fall victim to domestic violence and sexual assault, earn less money for the same work, face a hostile political climate in which state legislatures can mandate all sorts of humiliating procedures regulating their uteri, and on and on and on.
But you seem to think we've achieved a nirvanic state of gender equality. Do tell.
Wow....more people's little feelings got hurt!
First of all, anyone who uses the term 'programmer' is either doing some in a pejorative fashion or is stuck in the mid 80s. Yes, it is a male dominated field, because really, what girl (besides the dorky ones) would want to spend their time with a bunch of smelly nerds right?
That's a stereotype that is even worse than 'women serving beer' and as a tech person, I'm offended at the generalization. Yes, there are some tech folks out there who have issues with social interaction, washing, etc, but keep in mind, this smelly underclass built not only the internet that you people bitch on, but the facebook and the twitter you waste hours on. The long thankless hours, the endless questions from friends and family about 'fixing my computer' and 'how to get on AOL' as well as the 60-100 hour weeks don't always make up for the high salaries and free snacks we garner.
That version of excel you're using, that crap website you're blogging on, that camera app on your iphone that takes pictures of your ugly kids so you can post it to Facebook or twitter were created by us, so show us some respect, and if we want to beer served by attractive women (preferably Asian or looking like Mila Jovovich) that we could never date, then the sponsors should stop acting gutless, and the community at large should laugh it off or groan, and move on.
Because, ya'know, we can read your email. ;)
Really? What's more
Really? What's more appropriate than "programmer"? "Developer"? Like we're building subdivisions or condos?
I just googled "computer programmer" and got close to 200,000,000 hits. Are those all from the eighties?
kittens...
Not impressed. Your little speech has been overused in a dozen teen angst movies over the past 12 months alone. When you grow up and get a job as a software engineer as opposed to a mere intern, you won't even be responding to these threads.
COBOL, SmallTalk, VAX/VMS,
COBOL, SmallTalk, VAX/VMS, being a sexist douchebag and Dot Matrix Printers all went out of style decades ago.
Also, about that whole "smelly all-male nerds created the networks you're whining on" thing, this: http://tinyurl.com/7q8j7zl
Pinhead.
Hey!
Smalltalk doesn't belong on that list.
Fair point
Just did a little looking, and am pretty surprised by how much SmallTalk is actually still in use today... had thought (outside of its influence on Obj-C) it was largely gone.
Either way, you're right... it certainly doesn't deserve to be in the company of the other items that are genuinely outdated.
So.... consider that part of the list officially retracted. :)
Made my day
As a language geek :) I don't use Smalltalk much but I do keep an eye out for the esoteric.
Just to mention, Squeak is an excellent Smalltalk that's great for kids or learning programming in general. Plus, you can use it for real apps too (e.g. Seaside web apps).
Ruby's uber-popular and it practically screams Smalltalk influence.
what girl would want to...
Probably the ones who are, for example, better at systems engineering than you are.
Hold Everything
Everybody stop and look! A guy who doesn't see sexism when it is biting him on the nose, thinks he's really important and underloved, and WANTS YOU TO KNOW ABOUT IT by insulting you as if he's doing you some favor for being such a special little person.
Wow.
Pooor little bunny!