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Aren't condo associations wonderful?
By adamg on Sun, 08/25/2013 - 9:32am
The Herald reports the owner of a Fort Point condo is facing fines because his condo association objects to the American flag in his window:
Trustee Sean McGrail said the board was merely responding to a resident’s complaint about the flag, which breaks condo rules banning colored curtains.
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Comments
It's a flag, not a curtain. I
It's a flag, not a curtain. I hope this guy keeps it in the window.
No, he's using a flag as a
No, he's using a flag as a curtain. This makes it a curtain first and a flag second. If he wants to fly a flag he should fly the flag as a flag.
I tend to think of the
I tend to think of the American flag as the American flag first and foremost no matter how improperly someone may be displaying it.
Flag being used as curtain -
Flag being used as curtain - disrespect toward the flag and the condo ass'n. rules, in that order.
Flag being used as flag - complainer has serious case of John Carroll disease, and must seek treatment stat at the nearest VA hospital or veterans' home. (Yes, I know the circumstances were different w Mr. Carroll.)
I like colored curtains
Flag issue aside, why doesn't the condo association allow colored curtains? Are they concerned the building won't look "uniform" from the outside? I guess I could never live in a condo, I like colored curtains.
Uniformity is exactly what the condo board wants
I live in a condo building with very tight restrictions about our windows and balconies and what we can and can't put on them. For example, no bikes. No signs - especially political lawn signs.
When you buy a condo, them's the breaks. If you don't like it, don't go betching to the Herald about it. Sell your place and move somewhere else where you can put up any kind of display you want.
And if'n you don't like it...
you kin git out!
Thank you. Although I wonder
Thank you. Although I wonder if the Herald would've come to the rescue if it was anything but an American flag.
No because they couldn't
No because they couldn't frame it as Massachusetts liberals hating America.
Get lined curtains
Usually any drape/curtain lined with white is acceptable.
I dislike uniformity
1. I live in a condo building without any such rules. Having differently colored and styled window dressings differentiates us from institutionally-run housing. In fact, I never would have purchased here if every outward facing shade had to be white or what-have-you.
2. I'm running for city council where I live. You bet there are signs in my building's windows. We don't have lawns, and political speech is our right.
3. I'm not for disrespecting the flag. Who would be? However, I'm not certain that an American flag used as a shade is disrespectful. It's probably done out of good intent. Who are we to judge?
4. I also fought against a sign ordinance in my neighborhood that called for every business's sign to have gold lettering on a black background. They haven't completely re-written the ordinance so much as they have replaced selective enforcement with almost no enforcement. Baby steps, I suppose. (for now)
And yes - I despise this kind of uniformity. I chose a downtown in a "Gateway city" rather than the 'burbs for the variety of styles, cultures and artists. With the exception of preserving and respecting historic properties, bring it on.
Getting back to the original post - Wasn't Fort Point supposed to be an artistic community!? Vive la différence and all that?
Disrespect...and illegal even
The U.S. Flag Code ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8 ) is federal law. Title 4, Chapter 1. It has no penalty associated with it because the Supreme Court determined in a few cases that a penalty would violate your 1st Amendment rights.
But it directly states in 4.1.8: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery." He is using it as a window drape.
4.1.6.a also states: "It is the universal custom to display the flag only from sunrise to sunset on buildings and on stationary flagstaffs in the open. However, when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness." Something tells me he isn't taking it down at night and he isn't illuminating it properly either.
Technically..yes
I just want to point to the difference between deeper, real patriotism, and proper flag protocol, which can also be followed by those who are just using the flag for their own agendas.
I don't know this guy, but who knows? There's knowing how to raise the flag properly, and there's loving one's country. The two are entirely different categories of things. His original intent still could have been innocent. He lives in a condo, probably without a lawn, so he uses his window because that's all he has. It has the effect of doubling as a curtain, but is it a flag first and curtain second?
You also mentioned that there's no penalty - so what do you mean by illegal, then? Does he get an official wag of the finger? Given that he ignored the response of his condo association, I'm not sure the finger wag would bother him all that much.. maybe that makes him more of a patriot than someone who fusses over U.S. Flag Code.
you and I both know
That law is archaic and pretty dumb.
Flag Laws
Met an interesting fellow around the 4th of July who stole the flag from a public pool in Boston, since it was flying at night un-illuminated. He then proceeded to wear it as a cape.
Guy sounds like an attention
Guy sounds like an attention whore. When you buy a condo you agree to abide by the condo association rules. If you disagree with the rules then as a member of the association you have the opportunity to make your case to the other association members to change those rules.
An 'attention whore' who had
An 'attention whore' who had 5 uncles in WWII. Not knowing the person, I give him the benefit of the doubt that this is what he wants attention to.
blah
HOA's and CA's are the devil.
Nothing like using your own cash to buy into a miniature banana republic.
Buy into a cooperative. Wait
Buy into a cooperative.
Wait a year.
If you survive the trauma; then tell me how evil and intrusive home owners associations and condo associations are.
condo boards are what's known as control freaks
No bikes on balconies? Really? Condo boards need to get a life outside of being a little Nazi with some minor power and influence over other humans. What a sad little world we live in.
And why does an American flag freak out some people in America? I'm not gung ho anything [RELAX! I'm not a 'redneck'], but it's obvious the people who bother to whine about his flag curtains or just someone hanging out a flag have issues with the flag, period. They have their own ideological agenda they wish to ram down people's throats. Just because someone hangs a flag out or has one on their car, person, bike, whatever doesn't make them a Nazi out to get you.
Or, how about this: a CA or
Or, how about this: a CA or HOA has rules. Don't like the rules? Don't buy into that association, or lobby the board to change them. Very simple. But don't expect, having bought into an association, that you're a special snowflake entitled to an exception to every rule or assessment you don't care for. Personally, I wouldn't ever own a condo, and this is possibly the least of the reasons why.
Ok. But the HOA or CA should
be prepared to justify their rules on the basis of objective criteria (i.e. health and safety, fire risk, etc.). "Uniformity" and "asthetics" are totally subjective arguments (and idotic ones at that).
They don't need to justify
They don't need to justify the rules. They are, the rules.
They we're put into place before the board was even formed. All owners are members and agreed to them, including the board, which is made up of owners.
The board has no discretion on most of these types of things. If there's a clear violation, that's really it.
The real work of a board isn't to fine people. It's to run the building, and that's a LOT of work. Budgets, maintenance, manager issues.
Owners like this make it hell for a board to do their job.
There are these things called "property values"
Perhaps you've heard of them? When people have nice furniture and a few plants on their balconies, it's more appealing to potential buyers than a building with balconies with bikes and boxes and junk on them.
Can condo boards be ridiculous? Yes. We have deeded parking and we have rules about what we can and cannot have in our spots.
Why do I put up with it? Because those rules are so minor in the grand scheme of things that I don't care. As a single woman, I love living in a place where someone else does all the shoveling and we have 24/7 security and a lot of other amenities.
And that's why Boston is full of control freaks
Too many condos and too many control freaks trying to tell those who lived there all their lives what to do and how to do it. These people can only afford to live in groups, similar to public housing and want to push their ideology on everyone else.
Remember the Yuppadoodle in Charlestown who wanted the USS Constitution to stop firing her cannons?
http://www.senate.gov/referen
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30...
It looks like it's hung like a curtain, and is touching the bench below. So 8b and 8d. If you fly a flag in accordance with the Flag Code, federal law ensures that you can tell the condo association to stuff it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_Display_th...
The PDF differs
The document from the Senate specifically says a flag should not be used as drapery.
So it seems that if the fellow wanted to hang a flag in accordance with Federal statutes about how the flag should be displayed then he might have a case via Federal law. But putting the flag to a use that effectively makes it a curtain has no backing from Federal statutes.
Sounds like a flag with too many sides
I'm assuming that his CA has the authority to impose fines? Enjoying the S&M pleasures of owning a condo I know that some owners like to use fines to intimidate in spite of having no authority to impose fines.
I also understand that buying into a condo means promising to abide by the rules. If this fellow acts on a belief that he is an exception then he is breaking his promise. Familial relationships to veterans and a desire to honor them do not cancel out his promise of abiding by the contract implicit in condo ownership. The gentleman is causing the conflict and is acting in a disrespectful way toward the other people who signed to the same agreement.
The idea of a white backing is a perfect idea. He enjoys the flag as a curtain but manages to show a cooperative spirit with the other owners.
But maybe there are sides to the story that the Herald did not report. The statement that another owner hung a sail with colored lettering in their window raises a question of allowing an exception for someone else. On the other hand perhaps that sail was also removed.
My experience in owning a condo is that people pick and choose what rules they will respect as well as deciding what rules to apply - to themselves, others, whether the rules are real or made up. Par for the course of condo living.
Asked and answered
So, he asked because he knew the rule. He was told no. He ignored the response and the rule and for months has shirked his agreement to the rules when he moved in.
You lose, dude. Your desire was asked and answered. You don't get to make up the rules just because you're being patriotic or you don't like the answers you've been given. I hope you have a good rental/real estate lawyer who can make sure they follow all of the laws when they evict you.
Found one guys!!
I found one of the a-holes who is in charge of a condo association!!! Nothing like someone who takes pleasure in seeing someone evicted over something as trivial as window dressings...
Pleasure and eviction?
I doubt if any of the people on the condo board have any interest in controversy. It's already been said there is plenty of work to around for just the standard everyday things like cleaning, mowing if there is grass, maintenance and repairs, snow removal, the list goes on.
Eviction? Landlords evict tenants. Condo Associations can not evict an owner. My expertise is limited but I would not be surprised if no condo association can force an owner to even sell. On the other hand condo associations can force an owner who is renting out a unit to evict a tenant if the association has the authority. But that's not the case here.
Who is in charge of the condo association? Every owner ultimately. If a majority of the owners wanted to change the rule concerning curtains they would.
But to put someone down by calling them an a-hole just because they want to maintain the value of their home is really low class. But then I think using the image of a flag as a jacket as Keith Lockhart has done on 4th of July celebrations, or as bathing suits or even underwear actually says how cheaply Americans value important symbols.
I called Kaz and a-hole
I called Kaz and a-hole because he/she is an a-hole, it has nothing to do with maintaining their property value. The fact that they are hoping this person will get evicted (whether or not its plausible isn't really the point) because they're hanging a flag in their window is both petty and douchey.
And a symbol is just that, a symbol. It's meaning isn't set in stone, but determined by every individual. How does the use of the flag as a bathing suit impact or affect anyone at all?
Um, did the association give
a legitimate reason for denying the request. Or did they just deside "it's against our arbitrary and pointless rules, so the answer is no".
My guess is the latter.
But would it matter in court
The offender signed a contract that he would abide by the condo rules - whether they are silly or backed up with reason and fact. This isn't some arbitrary law which might have gray areas and set by government. This is a rule set by a private entity which was with explicit knowledge given to the offender. There's not really an excuse for him - he broke the rules, and now he deals with whatever consequences he was also made aware of. And he was also free to not move there and live elsewhere.
That may not be true bostonurbex
A condo association cannot make rules which break laws. There is a federal law which says people have the right to fly regardless of condo association rules:
But there are some restrictions with the law, so again, up to the courts to decide
As others have pointed out,
under the "Freedom to Display the American Flag Act", any display of the flag must conform to the Flag Code. Said code specifically prohibits the use of the flag as drapery.
If this ever gets to court, this should be a slam dunk for the condo association.
Not on flag desecration grounds, they wouldn't
Texas v. Johnson.
Does it say "flag code" in that law though?
The flag code is very strict and literal. I believe the law uses the term "properly display"
It says "4 USC" (or the
It says "4 USC" (or the long-winded equivalent)...
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr42/text
...which is the law generally referred to as the Flag Code. The part about "proper display" is "...pursuant to such chapter..." etc.
Yea but that code still isn't strict with the legal terms.
If you notice, there are a lot of "should be" phrases in that code. This man could argue, "I want to fly my flag the proper way, but the condo association won't let me"
I'm just saying it isn't a slam dunk for the condo group in my opinion.
I never signed anything
Does this happen? I never signed anything or have heard of anybody signing anything like that. Even if I were presented a contract by a CA after buying a unit, I wouldn't sign it. No need to.
Saying that, when you buy a condo, you should be aware of the rules and the general feel of the place. Some are very strict, some are very lax, and there's a huge grey area between. Ours has its moments, but overall is right on top of things. You're not going to agree with everything that's done and need to able to ignore stuff.
Yes, you agreed to conform to
Yes, you agreed to conform to the condo docs at your closing.
Way too many people on here
defending ridiculous HOA and condo boards. But it fits with you liberals...you love government telling you what to do.
When does government = HOA and condo boards?
Equating government and HOA and condo boards is ridiculous. Red herring argument if ever there was one.
And what's with the liberal remark? A guy violates the contract he agrees to when he buys a condo. Legally he's not in the right here. But somehow recognizing that he is violating his contract and promise to abide by the contract is liberal?
So does that mean that people who keep up their promises are Liberals and people who break their promises - making them liars - are Conservatives?
I don't think equating HOA
I don't think equating HOA and Condo Boards is ridiculous. One can view each other as analogous to each other (on the municipal level). It's not a red herring argument to view them as analogous because a reasonable argument can be made as having parallels.
I can also see why he made the liberal remark. The conservative's viewpoint is liberal tend support the "organization" over the individual. The defensive commentary would fit to that worldview. If you look at the patterns of conservatives and HOAs, one can identity their own pattern to views. Such as tendency to by sympathetic to people getting restricted to showing American flags and belief that the guy should do what he please.
Due to the value of the Conservative leans greater to the individual, as in the individuals should have as much free-reign to do as wish to their own desire on what is deemed their property(especially when it involves the American flag). This would mean the Conservative view would say it is wrong to have the power to restrict at all.
Combined with the Conservative view of Liberals as explained above and you're get that remark.
Been to Condo Jail lately?
Violating a municipal ordinance can put a person in jail. Violating a Condo rule at worst results in fines - but only if the CA is authorized to impose fines (which the Condo owner agrees to if that authorization is in the CA rules). An analogous comparison is useful as a descriptive tool but when making an argument analogies break down very quickly.
More breaks in the analogy: a person has many more choices of Condo Associations in a specific city. Therefore the prospective Condo buyer can compare the rules between different Condo Associations before buying. Condo Association rules are public information. Anyone can access them.
But when choosing to live in a specific city, especially if the choice is based on things such as work or school system, then the prospective buyer has much more limited choice. In other words there is only one Boston that I can live in. But in Boston there are plenty of Condo Associations.
City governments employ police with weapons. Those police can kill in extreme circumstances. While I know that there are many condo owners who wish at different time that they could do the same to their fellow Association members NO CA or HOA can authorize, create and deploy Condo police.
Other than Condo Associations and HOA being composed of human beings and engaged in the work of organizing people within a given context there is no comparison between those entities and any government.
The idea that Liberals prefer the organization over the individual is specious. Religious organizations which are Conservative emphasize conformity, narrowness of rules and qualifications. Liberal religious organizations emphasize tolerance of its members in their diversity. The rejection of Gay people and same sex marriages by Conservatives religious organizations and the acceptance by Liberal religious organizations makes that point. Conservatives love to proclaim that they fight the individual but in reality Conservatives want uniformity and compliance with the corporate identity. It is Liberals who fight for the individual.
Where the U.S. flag is concerned Conservatives are clear about what may or may not be done with flag. Anything that is outside the law is flag desecration. Remember the flag burning controversies? Who was it that wanted to impose a Constitutional Amendment dictating what may or may not be done with U.S. flags. A hint: Not Liberals.
Violating a municipal
No analogy are 1:1 perfect, but if you want to make a go at it. Very well. I'll make a go. Because I'm not the first idiot who see a parallel. Here's a quote by a legislative act:
Davis-Stirling Common Interest Development Act of California Law. Now you can rebuke back it's California, but remember my point is that many do view HOA as analogous to municipal level government. And apparently legislature level are open to the idea.
So does laws too. They are also public information that anyone can access. There maybe less variety to choose between cities versus condos/HOAs, but one have to take account how much do HOA vs municipals vary in their contact (on powers, not fees and services). It's not like there's so few municipals existing that one can't argue there's no competition between towns as between condos. Plenty look to the suburbs or urban cities comparing and shopping as between condos.
A true statement. It would be a sad day when there's condo police. The extreme circumstance is too extreme. For I don't believe municipal government have ordinances that should escalate to death. Still, no weapons still stands. Yet, as I quoted above of their words, it seems it is not enough to say one cannot make an analogy between HOA and municipal government. As it seems many do anyways with reasonable claims parallels. Police and shopping around notwithstanding.
I said the above to mean individual and property - not "rights of the individual" - though no Conservative would frame as being against the individual's desire. Conservatives seems to be very attracted to in a direction of roughly "if something is marked to be owned by that individual, then it takes a lot of arguing to add some kind of rule." As in if some place is marked as their condo, then the person should be a allow to drape their windows anyway they want. Condos cannot regulate that aspect. Thus the Conservative general sympathy to the individual condo owner. The mile in their shoes goes more to the viewing from the individual "I bought this condo and own this piece of property, I should be allow to do what I want" over the HOA "your activities affect our properties, you can't just do stuff that regularly affect us or our property (property value justification)".
Individuality has more aspects than sexuality. Conservative reject of Gay people doesn't mean their proclamation for the individual is false with a reality conformity. As mentioned above, the Conservative does seem to love not being regulated on property. That's related to an individual aspect as sexual orientation. No political stance have a monopoly of best views of all aspect (and many are subjective to the individual too).
My point is throw some kind of story of not being able to hang the flag and Conservatives will generally be sympathetic to the guy not being allowed. Regardless of the law or what Republicans representatives are voting.
Long story short.........
There are federal regulations which protect individual rights to fly a flag, and there is case law which backs condo associations in banning various forms of free speech.
Ultimately courts will decide if this man can hang a flag like he is doing.
Thats' why...
When you're looking to buy a condo, you need to examine the association as well as you examine the inside of the unit.
I'm thankful that in my building, all board members have day jobs and lives to live, so they pay attention to the important stuff and don't come up with any nonsensical rules.
It makes absolutely no sense for all outward facing curtains to be white unless you want it to look like you're living in institutional housing. I just don't see the connection to property value, unless the majority of people really do have awful taste. (Two of my outward facing rooms happen to be white on the outside because they're light blocking, but that's besides the point.)
defending ridiculous HOA and
Are you trolling? HOA and condo boards are the epitome of the free market. You bought it, you abide by the rules. You're free to buy a home somewhere else if you don't like the rules. Free market, baby!
I'm not a liberal
On a generous day, I'm a moderate. I live in a condo that is an investment and like having a condo board that protects my investment.
Condo associations have nothing to do with my views on government.
Troll on, buddy
The only thing that remotely brings politics into this is that the flag in question is that of the US. So in your MENSA-level mind, people arguing that a contract stating this as unallowed needing to be followed = "damn dirty libruls who hate our freedom".
Tell me, oh genius Anon, would you hold the same position if the flag in question was the Taliban flag? Or maybe Hamas?
If the cognitive dissonance stops ringing in your ears long enough for you to make a Right Wing Word Jumble sentence, let us know your brilliant thoughts.
A Life of Its Own
I don't know. I always feel like when there's an American flag involved, the situation seem to take on a life of its own. If I recall from the original article, it said he was hanging it to honor vets in his family. Really? Maybe. But, honoring fallen soldiers by hanging a red-white-and-blue drape to keep the sun out of your eyes and to keep people from seeing you scurrying naked from the shower to your bedroom doesn't seem like a clear cut case of honoring. It could just be that we wants to annoy fellow tenants who he can't stand or something.
It's like the biggest slacker at your workplace starts wearing Old Glory to work everyday, and suddenly, HR has the tough call of deciding whether they can fire America in good conscience.
The ultimate absurdity here
Anybody else walk by this building on a daily basis?
I couldn't even see what the curtains in any given window were like! It has huge stone lintels, deeply recessed window frames, and the rough appearance of a warehouse building that it likely once was. What window treatments people use are not visible from the street at all!
Totally ridiculous from the ground up.
condos
I am a painting contractor in Ohio , *Southie native of course)and I deal with condos occasionally . The rules and regulations I run across drive me nuts. These condo boards act like they are running the city of Boston. Talk about power trips. One told me to fill out an application to do work there. They wanted references, ok , they wanted insurance proof , ok , social security number ,bank acct number with balances, bank managers name. coipy of last years taxes. ??? I said you must be joking , no wonder these condos are run down. No contractor is going to give you that info . Neither did I .