Gay group allowed into South Boston parade as long as they don't tell anybody they're gay

The Globe reports on a deal brokered by Mayor Walsh that would let MassEquality march - as long as they don't wear shirts or carry signs that have the word "gay" on them. No word if they'll be allowed to carry rainbow flags as long as all the stripes but the green one are taped over.

Only problem: Nobody told MassEquality, which says it learned of the "deal" by reading the Globe:

The fact that Parade organizers are willing to have a conversation with MassEquality is an important part of ongoing public dialogue about LGBT people and the Parade. But at this point, it’s still just a conversation. MassEquality has not accepted any invitation to march, and will only consider accepting an invitation that allows LGBT people to march openly.

We have heard from LGBT people who are Irish, who are veterans, and many others who would like to march in the Parade and to be able to express all of who they are. LGBT people should not have to silence who they are to celebrate other parts of their identities.

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Adam really

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What if I wrote "I hate blacks."

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Are you black, ms. anon?

I can say hate whomever I please, and if some anon twit doesn't like that who gives a shit? Not me. And for the record, I said "I hate THESE irish catholics" meaning these fucking bigoted irish piece of shit carholics. And I wouldn't be too too surprised to learn you're one of them.

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I enjoyed how that sounded angry and at the same

time utterly nonsensical. Well done! The inept punctuation was just a bonus.

Let me see if I'm following the logic. "If you don't like the fact that some people are bigots, convert to Islam"? I think you could also have gone with "Then go back to Russia!", or "Then go teach your mother to suck eggs!", or "Then take off your bunions with 220 sandpaper!" All are equally rational, intelligent responses to someone objecting to virulent homophobia.

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Do you know where the Mystic River bridge is?

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There's an easy way to end your torment, take one "Irish Catholic" off the face, but what about the clowns that upvoted your comment? It's OK, the Irish will survive and prevail despite your snobbery.

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What do you mean by "Irish?"

I'm always curious around here when people say "Irish," whether they mean

  • People with ancestry from Ireland, who are interested in their Celtic heritage, who know something about Ireland's past and present, who know and love Irish literature, music, folklore, and traditions, or
  • People with shamrock decals on their trucks, who complain about Southie being overrun by outsiders, and who don't know jack about Ireland or even about the history of the Irish diaspora in America.
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So what do we call blacks

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Most "African American" have never been to Africa, some probably can't name a single country in Africa.

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You're sort of making my point...

... which is that the politics of identity pretty much suck, no matter who's playing.

On the other hand, I'd point out a significant distinction, which is that a 35 year old "Irish" (in the shamrock-bumper-sticker sense) accountant is pretty much, to the casual observer, indistinguishable from any other whitebread professional, and has never in his life had first-hand experience of any sort of racial or ethnic discrimination. "No Irish need apply" went out about 100 years ago; in the 60s a friend heard, "If I had known you were Catholic, you never would have made partner here at this firm," but now, not so much. Compare that with the 35 year old black accountant, whose racial identity is as plain as his face, and has been, for his whole life, the defining determinant of how much of the world treats him. He's got meaningful and significant shared experience with other dark-skinned people in a way that the "Irish" guy does not have in common with other "Irish".

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Two groups aren't mutually exclusive, Bob

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And the bumper sticker Irish , I'd venture, know a lot more about Ireland's history than most other hyphen-Americans. The Potato Famine, English colonialism, and the more recent Troubles are all pretty common knowledge among all "Irish." Many of these families are only a generation or two removed from being off the boat. The girls are still step dancing. I'm not much older that your 35 y.o. accountant, my grandparents weren't off the boat, and I still recall listening to rebel music in the bars of Dorchester and downtown back in the day. Still enjoy it to this day. As I do an Irish breakfast. And many of the moms and grandmoms are going to offer you a cup of tea if you visit.

The heritage is strong. No need to knock it or downplay it to make a point about the parade.

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They don't really exist

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That's what i'm trying to tell you.

I'm American (father with Irish surname but generations removed for the auld sod) and grew up in these neighborhoods and I know the heritage. Someone with a shamrock sticker or tat is probably even deeper into the culture than I am. "Irish" is shorthand for "Irish-Ameican" just like Italian is. Nobody's claiming to be from there but it doesn't mean they don't identify with their heritage.

Where do you get this assumption that there are all these guys running around with tats and stickers with no knowledge of their roots?
I haven't really seen it and I've seen a lot of these people. A lot. Sure there are some ignorant people in this group, just like anywhere, but they're not some vast majority.

The grandmothers are teaching the kids and grandkids.

Anyways, just my two cents and my observations shouldn't be taken as condonement of the parade organizers bigotry. By and large they're old and conservative (and Catholic) but honestly I don't see it as a specifically Irish or Irish-American issue, which is part of why I'm commenting on the whole faux Irish thing. Old school Italian or Portuguese (-Americans) would be doing the same thing.

You raise several good points

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and I will think positively of you next time I'm drinking a Barry's tea. To inject a little levity into the thread.... once in Greenhills I saw a young Irish (as in, freshly from Ireland) guy point out the canned peas on the shelf and say, "I can't believe they sell that shite here in America, it alone was reason to emigrate."

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Sláinte, Bob

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I hear the young guy, too. some of the imported products are definitely acquired tastes and I can certainly see why people would rather unacquire them!

African Americans Tracing Lineage Isn't Easy...Try It

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Assuming you mean asking a Black American of African diaspora, with sole lineage tracing back to the Middle Passage, to speak about countries in the African continent, I'll continue with my point...

It's easy to say Irish Americans (who are usually between 1st-3rd generation Americans) can find Ireland on a map since they can trace their ancestry back to one island made up of three countries. Asking an asking a Black American of African diaspora to locate their ancestral country isn't even in the same category. The reality is that many Black Americans of African diaspora, have lost over 400 years of heritage and lineage from their uprooting from Africa to the Americas. The average Black American of African diaspora would never be equipped to tell you what region of Africa their family is from, much less the country to NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN- records we never kept and names were changed. Genealogists have been attempting this for decades and have been unable to really make headway because there is truly no way to make up for the lost information.

My grandfather was born at the turn of the century and was never issued a proper birth certificate, therefore we could never ascertain his exact age when he passed away in 2004.

Of course, a debate about identity politics relating to Irish Catholic intolerance (from a religious perspective is the assumption, however it could be a larger issue of personal intolerance) of the LBGTQ would somehow drag Black Americans into the fray, however this is about a different identity and thus you lose ground in your point by attempting to sling dirt.

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Typical

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Good to know hatred and bigotry are celebrated on Uhub.

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haha

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Good to know the parade practices hatred and bigotry, too.

How does it feel to be subject to the same, yourself?

There's no defense for excluding people because they're gay, except hatred of them. This isn't a question of "freedom", it's a question of excluding others for who they are.

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Among others

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Anita Bryant more or less said the same. Funny how a God fearing red blooded American woman could have something so specific in common with a former godless Communist and present dictator.

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It's the best of Putin

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It's the best of Putin meeting the best of Arizona. It's very multicultural of the parade organizers.

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Today is March First

I'll be in an unheated place most of the day. Considering everything, I doubt Mr. Naked guy on stilts will show up two weeks from now. Maybe they should dress as Cossacks.

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Alright, everyone! Back in the closet!

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Nothing to see here... keep moving along. The Mayah says this is the biggest step in 20 years. Too bad he means the biggest step backwards in 20 years.

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Tom Menino didn't put up

Tom Menino didn't put up with any shit from these assholes. Why Walsh would compromise in any way with the fucking southie bigots is beyond me.

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You're right.

"Menino didn't put up with any shit from these assholes."
I remember them marching every year. Oh, hold it, that wasn't Southie. Clown.

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And your point is?

They marched every year, as is their undisputed right. Menino turned his back on them, as was his undisputed right.

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Upvoted by

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the rest of the clowns stuffed inside your undersized vehicle.

You uninformed twits are just as bad as the bigots you try to insult. Menino avoided the situation because its a privately run event that doesn't necessarily represent the city as a whole. Mayah Mahhhty "compromising" is more than Mumbles ever did and its a step in the right direction so stop whining.

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Menino didn't do anything to

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Menino didn't do anything to bridge the two communities. He didn't do anything to force LGBT groups to be included in the parade. He allowed the parade to take place, didn't march himself, and left it at that.

Walsh did something really remarkable here. He didn't throw his weight around and force anyone to do anything; instead, he used his Irish Catholic street cred and his gay rights street cred to get the two groups to discuss and come to an arrangement. No, it's not ideal by any means. But maybe after this first parade, things will change a little next year, and a little more the year after that. I am seriously impressed by this because it shows that Walsh has the power to ease more traditionally minded and even outright homophobic people into the 21st century. That's what we need right now. If he can do it across racial boundaries as well, he may be just what Boston needed.

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Hey! First comment that is on

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Hey! First comment that is on topic and not just yelling about "dumb Irish" or "the blacks have it as bad as the Irish" or the other-way-around or whatever boring crap
.

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"You don't see me parading

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"You don't see me parading around, telling everyone what I do in the bedroom... Have I told you about the wife & kids?"

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Actually, yeah, we do.

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Heteronormative straight sexuality is fucking plastered all over our culture. It's exhausting if you start to try and take notice of it.

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Whoosh!

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Whoosh!

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Yeah

they need a shirt or sign that says gay so we can tell who they are so they better not wear shirts or carry signs that say gay. By the way how much time has Wacko spent down at the L in summer? Just asking?

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southie parade

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What happened to all the vendors selling helium balloons, horns and junkie trinkets? Years ago there was at least one vendor on every corner trying to make a buck off the parade. In the last few years they are hard to find.

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Because

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Yuppies don't buy green rabbit feet and "Kiss me I'm Irish" pins.

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southie parade

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Licensing fees have risen exponentially. Boston is a liberal city in the sense that it regulates small businesses.

stubborness

southie needs a heavy hand to break that stubborness, they think that they can make their own rules and the city allows them to get away with it.

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9-0

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The city? Try the US Supreme Court.

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fair enough

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It's their parade, and they get to control the message expressed by it.

This could have been done 20 years ago, but the GLIB group barged in with their Ropes and Gray lawyers who wanted to do some Southie bashing and would not negotiate.

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Right, the equal rights

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Right, the equal rights movement is just an excuse to bash Southie. That makes total and complete sense, and is definitely something a rational person would conclude.

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Tell me this

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why hasn't there been a similar initiative for the Columbus Day parade? No lawsuit, no Italian-American GLIB for that?

Why none for the Caribbean Carnival, which is the biggest parade in Boston?

White liberals in the Boston area who like nothing more than to crap on Southie and drive back to Lexington, Newton, or Dover

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Making a straw man counter

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Making a straw man counter argument is the same thing as having no counter argument. Congratulations.

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It's like this, I guess...

Some (not all) libs are fun to watch. When everything is good, when they get their way, they're happy. When they don't, they throw fits like little spoiled helicopter children and put forth logical arguments to explain their position like, "I fucking hate these irish catholics, and I'm irish catholic." or "They should all wear their cassocks and collars." or "southie needs a heavy hand to break that stubborness".

More light, less heat. You want to 'break' Southie? Good luck with that. Ask the previous mayor how that worked out. Me? I love a good parade. I also love to watch racist assholes kick the shit out of a religion. Substitute "Muslim" for Catholic and all of a sudden it becomes politically incorrect.

Maybe the Pope should issue a fatwa on the subject. (ahem, yes I know). Then maybe one of these internet toughies can hijack a 747 and fly it into Telegraph Hill.

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Couldn't agree more

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UHub liberals are probably the biggest group of hypocrites in Boston!

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That's a lot of words to get

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That's a lot of words to get around saying "But really, don't you think there's some heterophobia and Christian discrimination prevalent in society?"

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Once again, confusing criticism of a behavior for "bashing"

The condemnation is for a specific discriminatory behavior, not the entire religion. "Treat others as you would like to be treated"? I'm down with that part of Christ's teachings. "Hate and despise those people for their sexual orientation"? That's bigotry, and having read the New Testament, I believe your Lord and Savior would not congratulate you for exhibiting it.

Stop dragging Muslims into it. When they exhibit homophobia (which many do), they will be subject to the exact same criticism. Your notion that Catholics get bashed while Muslims get a pass is a figment of the imagination of some right-wing radio-host asshole. How easy it is for those hucksters to get you whipped up over imaginary threats to yer freedum.

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It's called a compromise

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I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Now, 20 years ago there would be no compromise, and the party who was judged by the Supreme Court to be right isn't going to bullied into acceding to something they swore up and down they wouldn't allow.

The reverse bigots here want gay groups to march in this conservative parade? Well, Mass Equality might march, as long is they don't put on a display of triumphantalism. This goes well, who knows, maybe in a few years they will have floats celebrating gay families.

Progress comes better incrementally, not when it is forced. This is an incremental step.

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So very wrong. In 1992 GLIB

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So very wrong. In 1992 GLIB went through the same process every other group did to march in the Parade (which, by the way, at that time wasn't much of anything - the submission process to march in Pride was more involved). It wasn't until the Council rejected the submission that GLIB turned to the Mayor's Office for help - there were negotations, and there were compromises made. GLIB was restricted to having 25 people march and could carry no placards or wear T-shirts; it could only carry the one banner. Lawyers were not involved with GLIB until the lead-up to 1993, when it became apparent that the AWVC was going to reject its history as the steward of the Boston Evacation Day St Patricks Parade and privatize to keep GLIB from returning. And then it was not hires from Ropes & Gray, it was pro bono via GLAD's Mary Bonauto.

Never was there Southie bashing - a good chunk of the membership was from Southie, or Southie families who'd moved to the South Shore. And they all identified as Irish American first, that was the point of the group - so why the hell would they engage in modern day NINA bullshit?

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Yawn...

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If societal statistics are accurate, gays have likely comprised approximately 3% of the parade participants every year, yet those participants never needed a banner proclaiming their homosexuality at a nice, family event. Glad to see that rule will continue. As then-Supreme Court Justice David Souter said in the 1995 SCOTUS unanimous decision, gay plaintiffs showed no evidence that they had been banned from participating, they were merely banned from conveying a message that organizers didn't agree with, which all nine Justices agreed was perfectly legal.

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What a revolting statement.

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Is there any point at which you will come out of the sewer and elevate your level of discourse on this forum? Good god.

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Now, now

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Fish has as much right as any of us to express his opinions here!

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Let's send the kidlet to private school!

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I'm going to contact Critical Mass and get a bike contingent to apply to ride in the parade.

UH clicks will go stratospheric!!!

Thank me later, Adam. :)

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I'm homosexual

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half Irish descent, one generation removed, raised in Boston (the city), etc., etc.,I went to that parade ONCE. My 'real Irish' grandparents rarely went. I personally dislike parades,don't even attend pride. If you aren't wanted by the events organizers, well F them, metaphorically speaking. Hold a counter event and organize boycotts. That said, gays are allowed in events held in Ireland, no problem. And I thank the mayor for upholding the boycott. And as a guy who served in the U.S. army, in combat, I know I could handle a fool like 'wacko' Hurley.

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You don't see them fighting

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To march in the Caribbean parade or the Columbus parade. How about marching in the Ancient and Honorable Artillery parade?
Bunch of attention grabbers.

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The Gay Lobby got together

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The Gay Lobby got together and decided they didn't have a big enough budget to attack every target. They will be having a bake sale next week to help get into the other parades next.

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Social justice and good business aren't always

mutually exclusive. Some corporations act in good conscience, and will not associate their brand with bigotry, even when it costs them profits. For instance, one of the ways apartheid in South Africa was brought to an end was pressure from the divestiture movement.

More recently, the NFL's implicit threat to pull next year's Super Bowl from Arizona almost certainly influenced Brewer's decision to veto that disgusting "Jim Crow for gays" bill. People are starting to figure out that hatred is bad for business.

Also, pulling sponsorship based on the parade organizers' homophobia isn't anti-Catholic; it's anti-bigotry. Stop conflating the two.

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As always, gays are still allowed to march without gay banner.

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Bigotry? The moral equivalence of apartheid? Surely you jest. As always, gays are still allowed to march in the parade. Organizers have merely maintained the appropriate stance of banning any reference to sexuality (homo, hetero or otherwise) at a family event attended by thousands of children. TMI as the kids say.

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I'm not equating the Southie parade to apartheid

My point is that individuals and businesses putting pressure on businesses and governments to eschew bigotry can be effective, even on a much larger scale. It has led to a change of a large country's entire political system, and gotten a governor in a state that is notoriously bigoted to make a difficult decision that pissed off a good chunk of her Republican supporters.

It will be interesting to see if any significant pressure can be put on these parade sponsors. The fact that gays might represent a smaller fraction of their business than homophobes is not the only calculus at work here; there are a lot of straight people like me who also find homophobia repugnant, and don't give people a pass on it because they claim it's part of their religious values. (And despite what bloat-bags like Doyle say, I think the Pope and Jesus are both anti-homophobia.)

The potential for long-term damage to the brand is also a concern, and that might have a greater economic impact than a few people deciding to switch razor brands.

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This parade is a privately

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This parade is a privately sponsored event to celebrate something defined by the sponsor. And for private parades the sponsors can set the rules around whether participation promotes their purpose in having the parade. Every year, the circus comes to town and the elephants parade to the Garden. PETA hasn't got a right join in that parade. Atheist organizations would not be allowed in the North End religious processions although the procession take place on public streets. Time was when NAMBLA marched in the gay pride parade, however the sponsors of that parade no longer allow them to march.

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Orientation isn't merely SEXUAL...

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Sexual orientation doesn't just refer to the sex act. It refers to WHO YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO AND CAPABLE OF FALLING IN LOVE WITH. And minority groups NEED RECOGNITION that the majority DO NOT, since they are , you know, THE MAJORITY.

Talk about your

strawman arguments. Nothing is being conflated anywhere but your vivid imagination. Now we get to endure a couple of weeks of post hoc ergo propter hoc bullshit from both sides. Take Marty's compromise as an opportunity to show the good faith we keep hearing so much about. He's a whole lot more sincere than Menino ever was. There. Problem solved.

In this and the other parade thread, the usual suspects

have been doing exactly that: saying, in effect, "If you object to homophobia, you are Catholic-bashing." And I keep repeating, "It's not your entire religion, but your bigoted behavior."

This is what just got asserted in Arizona: the fact that you think your religion allows you to be a bigot doesn't mean you get a law protecting that behavior. Most of the people wailing about that veto are doing the same thing: "They're repressing our religious freedom!" Um, no: you are free to practice your religion, up to the point where your religious values violate the law, including laws against discrimination. In this particular case, it's not a law that's involved, but a very public "private" event. With the legal options exhausted, a logical next step to express disapproval is activism to pressure the sponsors.

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Sam Adams

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Samuel Adams was virulent anti-Catholic bigot. Check out references to Pope's Day (I think it's November 4th). He incited mobs to attack Catholics in Boston. Where's the outrage?

you see?

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they can't compromise. pressure pressure pressure. they want their victory parade. It's not going to happen. Hurley does not care about the money.

Why don't they do it for Columbus Day parade? They'll find their Shih-tzu's head in the bed.

Statement from the mayor's office

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Mayor Walsh and Congressman Stephen Lynch met today with parade organizers. It was a very positive meeting, and they remain optimistic that a solution can be reached that will work for all parties involved.

So, in other words, this isn't settled yet.

reason

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What are they marching for? The parade is supposed to be to celebrate the heritage of Irish people in south boston. Yeah it's got a little crazy with Michael Jackson look a likes and star wars characters (they shouldn't be in it either). But this is not a protest parade for gay rights. Last time I checked MA was pretty liberal and you have more rights than on other states.

all day event

I suggest having a gay St. Patrick parade in the afternoon, the gays dont have to join where theyre not wanted.

And right there in the caption, it notes that some

Southie folks threw eggs, bottles and cans at the NAACP float. When GLIB marched in the '92 and '93 parades, they were escorted by riot police. It makes me wonder: if MassEquality does eventually get to march on its own terms, how well will spectators behave?

Seems like homophobia is increasingly a function of age; younger people are much likelier to consider sexual preference a non-issue. Maybe a few years from now, enough of the old bigots will have moved out or aged out of Southie's population to make people wonder: why was letting gay Irish-Americans participate in the parade such a big deal back in the day? When even the Pope is on the right side of the issue, the hateful and fearful sure look like dinosaurs.

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Out of Place

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Am I the only one who things that gay people with rainbow flags is just as out of place at the St. Paddy's parade as a bunch of drunk people wearing green would be at a gay pride parade? I'm pretty sure that's what this all about.

Two words:

Imperial Stormtroopers. Maybe I'm missing something about Star Wars trivia, but their connection with Irish-American heritage seems a bit more tenuous than a bunch of proudly Irish-American gay people who want to participate.

I would venture that the

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I would venture that the Imperial Stormtroopers are there for the kids. Kids and adults alike love them. They're a fun part of the parade. If you've ever been to the parade, believe it or not, there are little kids with parents who line the front of the crowds along the parade route to watch the parade. It's not all puking college students with green plastic hats.
To the main point, I think it's absurd that if you're gay you're not allowed to march openly. Hopefully this year will be a turning point and things will improve with each parade with regards to this issue so it will soon become a non-issue. Furthermore, I do think it's only right that ALL parades allow people who are gay to march openly. Which other parades don't allow gay people to march openly?