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Lynn may never get the Blue Line, but it could get a ferry soon

The Boston Business Journal reports Lynn is looking to hire a company to run a ferry to Boston this year.

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Lynn could be the next Lowell if only the state would help them with transportation access to Boston.

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Lynn has advantages over Lowell for economic and cultural growth because -

1. It's so close to Logan, but just far enough not to be annoyingly on top of it.
2. It's much, much closer to Boston. True, it isn't Boston/Camb/Somerville, but you can buy or rent a loft here for a lot less.
3. It's on the coast.
4. 2200 acres of Lynn Woods and the Gannon Golf Course.
5. It already has an arts scene and artist work space.
6. The existing housing stock is cheaper than the surrounding area and ripe for restoration.
7. Like Lowell, Lynn has an auditorium.
8. There's no UMass, but Salem State is next door.
9. It's becoming a bit of a home/design mecca with Noteborn, Zimmans, Lucia Lighting, R&B, Furgeson.
10. Restaurants I can't afford are opening up here and are packed every night.

You don't know about these things because Lynn didn't purchase an annoying radio spot on WBZ.

We already have the Commuter Rail, but 91k people this close to Boston should have rapid subway transit.

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Lynn could be the next Somerville. Active arts scene, killer beaches, and beautiful, affordable housing.

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the affordable housing part will evaporate, just like it did in Somerville.

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Cannot have this discussion about affordable housing without talking about the elephant in the room: zoning.

If Lynn, somehow, someway, ever gets the Blue Line, then it will be absolutely necessary to upzone the walkshed around the newly built stations. Or else, you will see skyrocketing prices, no doubt.

It's just completely pointless to extend rapid transit without a corresponding, massive increase in the housing supply. Or else, the affordability will indeed tank.

Somerville will be a good test case to see if a Boston region community can really get itself together and fix the problems caused by bad zoning.

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It just seems values will skyrocket with or without upzoning. I mean, I am really lacking real life examples. It works in theory, with increasing supply against demand, but I'm having the hardest times thinking of examples of one that actually manage to keep prices reasonable. And I mean that genuinely, I'm glad if you can tell me examples. Currently, if it was so simple with examples, I think there wouldn't been that 100+ comment war in that recent post about new condos/apartments.

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Glaeser's famous paper, a more accessible pop-science article version, and a recent article about Japan. I'll also note that anecdotally, Chicago has stayed relatively cheap due to easier construction, and Berlin has famously been cheap because of a glut of housing supply.

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Especially if they could undercut the CR price, even by a dollar. This thing would be huge.

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Unfortunately, if Lynn does start to get cleaned up, it'll be the hardworking folks who get pushed out first, and the ones responsible for the area's high crime rates will still be around - with nicer stuff to steal and less street-smart people to steal from.

It doesn't make sense that Lynn is as shitty as it is - it is on the coast, close to Boston and the airport, and the commuter rail is a quick shot into downtown - once every couple of hours, anyway.

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Will decrease when rents/property values increase to a level where it makes more sense for landlords to do market rate or condo conversion instead of section 8. Criminals are not homeowners, we are paying their rents while they stick guns in our faces and steal our cell phones.

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We know there are poverty - crime associations.

Where is this information regarding Section 8 housing and crime associations, controlled for poverty issues?

I'm interested because I deal with confounding variables in health analyses, and, if what you are saying is true and you can provide the data source, I'd be interested in testing it as a variable.

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We all know crime and poverty are related - just look at crime rates in Lawrence vs crime rates in Weston. Large increase in poor population increases crime rate - look at blue collar Jewish Mattapan vs current Mattapan, or any other town or neighborhood that has experienced a large influx of poor residents. Section 8 housing serves poor population and it's a known fact that crime and poverty are related, meaning those living there are statistically more likely to be engaged in criminal activity than a middle class market rate-paying tenant or homeowner. Look at the current Boston problem properties list - mostly section 8 buildings with real problems like violence and drug dealing, with a few loud-partying Allston student slum houses thrown in. Heck, just look at crime rates in different sections of Dorchester - crime rate in higher-income parts with less subsidized housing is much lower than poor sections. Poor live in subsidized housing, meaning crime issues associated with poverty are in turn associated with subsidized housing, what's so hard to understand?

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So let's see the validation of that "understanding". I'm interested in the data sets that you analyzed to reach these conclusions about these communities (census data typically does not include Section 8 aggregations).

As my dissertation advisor told me: There's things that everybody just knows, and then there is data and analysis and validation. Like how people often assume that the poorest parts of our cities are near freeways ... except that they aren't.

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It looks more a like convoluted way to undermine than to legitimately ask the anon if he has an article or study.

Most commentators and forumers I see who seems genuinely interested at a claim asking would just write "Do you have a link or an article? I am legitimately curious." Not so much listing profession and paraphrases of advice about dissertations. Honestly, it seems more like implying your expertise without saying you're an expert.

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Do you need a study proving your ass gets dirty after you take a dump?

Poor towns/neighborhoods have higher crime rate than more affluent ones, yes or no?
Section 8/public housing is more prevalent in poor towns and neighborhoods, yes or no?
Crime rate decreases as poor population is replaced with more affluent population, yes or no?

If you answered no to any of the above, citation please(c)! Show me a study proving Mattapan is safer than Weston, Wellesley has more subsidized housing than Brockton, and crime rate in today's JP is much higher than it was in early 90s.

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Doing a study that would prove those self-evident facts is a sure way to commit career suicide - it's an inconvenient truth everyone knows about, yet no one wants to hear.

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The Lynn of today IS the cleaned up version. The improvement has been quite striking, actually.

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Since it was first proposed several years ago, I've been saying that a Lynnferry to Downtown Boston is a terrible idea. Here's why:

1) - It duplicates existing Commuter Rail service. The ferry terminals in Lynn and Boston are both within walking distance of their respective train stations. The Commuter Rail runs in a direct route; it is much shorter and faster than a boat going all the way out around Winthrop and then back into Boston Harbor. The Commuter Rail offers several scheduled trains during intervals where a Lynnferry would offer only one. A Lynnferry to Boston wouldn't provide any additional transit links or improvements over existing Commuter Rail service to Lynn.

2) - Other critical transit needs are far more important. Every penny spent on a Lynnferry to Boston means less money to address the real problem with North Shore transit: the absence of a link between Wonderland and Lynn Central Square. Yes, the Blue Line extension to Lynn would be lovely, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. However, "Bustitution Service" could be established tomorrow. Replace the 441/442 with a new express shuttle; running with the frequency of Blue Line trains; between the two stations. Make it the "Silver-Blue" line; call it "The 440", "The Four-Forty-Wonderland", or call it whatever you want; but such a service would benefit many more people than a Lynnferry to Boston ever would, providing an efficient link between the Blue Line and points north on the Commuter Rail via Lynn Central Square.

3) - A Lynnferry to the South Shore would be a much better idea. Now there's a link we don't currently have! Do you know how long it takes to drive from Plymouth or Quincy to Lynn or Salem? Do you know what the traffic is typically like during rush hour on Route 3, the Southeast Expressway, Route 128, etc., etc.? Well, if you do, then just imagine how nice it'd be to take a boat across the harbor instead! Ignoring this potentially untapped market in favor of duplicating existing Commuter Rail service from Lynn to Boston makes no sense.

4) - A Lynnferry to Boston wouldn't bring many new visitors to Lynn; anyone who uses it will probably have been already using the Commuter Rail. The Lynnferry terminal is in an isolated location not served by other public transit. People will drive to the terminal, park there, and then drive home; there won't be any incentive to patronize businesses in Lynn, since that would require driving into Downtown, finding another parking spot, etc.. In contrast, the Central Square Station is served by multiple bus lines and is within walking distance of many restaurants and other attractions.

5) - A Lynnferry to the South Shore however, would bring in totally new people. A new transit option to the South Shore would attract other people from the North Shore who aren't using the Commuter Rail at all because, right now, "you can't get there from here".

6) - The current 441/442 bus service between Wonderland and Central square is extremely overcrowded and runs far too infrequently to meet the needs of the vital North Shore Road / Lynnway corridor.

So, make the Lynnferry go the South Shore, but first; establish "Four-Forty-Wonderland" / "Silver-Blue" shuttle service between Wonderland and Lynn Central Square.

Please?

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3) - A Lynnferry to the South Shore would be a much better idea. Now there's a link we don't currently have!

There's a very good reason we don't have that service. I think the two people that might occasionally want to go from Lynn to the south shore can figure out some other way to get there.

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It's an excellent point, as getting from Lynn to Quincy (or vice versa) does suck. Alot. Quincy is the "hub" of the South Shore. And Lynn is the "hub" of the North Shore -- or is at least best suited to being so. A ferry from Market St & Lynnway to Quincy could be something worth doing in the future. Now? No, probably not ready for it now. But, if Lynn suddenly starts to turn around (as it should) and unless there's both a Red-Blue Connector and a BLX to Lynn, a ferry could be a great link between the two.

Hell, you could even stop at a harbor island in between during the summer. Now you're suddenly linking in a historic national park between two cities with historical districts and attractions.

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Agreed! There has not been a major review and restructuring of North Shore bus routes since at least 2002. Bringing back the 440 would be awesome and cheaper. Likewise, bring back a version of the 400 (serving Common and Western); run both with coordinated trunk headways (i.e. each route runs, say, every 12 mins during rush hour -- thus, six minute service between the Blue Line and Central Square). You could thru-route some trips to/from Marblehead (as 441/442) and Salem (as 455). Honestly, I'd like to see the 448, 449, and 459 go. At the very least, drop midday 459 service and reinvest the resources in better Blue Line feeder service and local Lynn service. A few tweaks to the Commuter Rail fare structure and timetable could also help siphon off extra folks from the buses.

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is already covered by the 455. Unless you mean extra 455 runs from Central Square to Wonderland during the rush hour and/or midday? The 455 already serves the common and Western Ave. Or I think you are proposing an increase of 455 service and a new 441/455 and 442/455 (455 from Wonderland to Central Square, then 441/2 to Marblehead)

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Sorry if I worded that in a confusing way. I propose using the old Route 400 number for short trips between Lynn and Wonderland via Western; regular thru service to Salem would keep the 455 number. The 400 would only run during the rush hours and midday in coordination with the 440. Trips to/from Marblehead would continue to use the Lynnway and current route numbers.

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Don't forget that within a few years, if Patrick's Transportation plan goes thru and is approved. DMU's will be purchased and run on the commuter rail line from N Station to Lynn.

I'd see far more ridership on a DMU than I would see an beef'd up bus line, or a ferry service.

of course we don't know what the headway will be like once the DMU service is started, but hey, its additional service for Lynn, which is so desperately needed.

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Running more frequent DMU service instead of locomotive powered Commuter Rail trains makes a lot of sense, but I disagree that it's more important than connecting Wonderland with Lynn Central Square. The Commuter Rail goes only to North Station (via Chelsea), whereas the Blue Line stops at the Airport and then directly connects with the rest of the subway network, providing rapid transit service to many more destinations.

The biggest difference is in frequency of service; Blue Line trains run every few minutes, every day, all day long. That kind of energy drives the neighborhoods it serves, making possible the dream of living a life without being dependent on a car; something that's very valuable to many people!

DMU's cannot provide that level of service because North Station simply couldn't accommodate that many trains dead-ending in and out. Yes, use them for faster, more frequent service on the Newburyport/Rockport and other Commuter Rail lines, but don't perceive DMU service as any sort of substitute for a Wonderland-Central Square connection.

Bustitute: yes (for now). DMUstitute: no. Ferrystitute: keep drinking.

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As much as I agree with you with a BLX to Lynn/Salem would gain the most ridership, we're decades away from this even being a reality. Also keep in mind that a BLX to Lynn may NOT be as frequent as you want it. Not even the same frequencies as the current BL, it could have headways of > 20 minutes in rush hour because all the trains are short-run'd to Wonderland and then turn around. It could happen.

I think the DMU service is a start to see how ridership fairs, its easy to implement today on existing track, and if there's enough ridership maybe it would re-jump start the BL to Lynn. But until then, you're wasting oxygen wishing/hoping/begging for a BLX to Lynn.

And sorry, the MBTA has proven that people won't ride a bus (its a boston mentality thing), so you think soup'd up bus service would work better? Doubt it.

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If I were holding my breath for an extension to Lynn, my face would be bluer than the trains.

As far as people not willing to ride a bus, I suggest you take a trip on the 441/442 some day; weekdays during rush hour, middays, or even on lazy Sunday afternoons. These busses are typically packed full with riders. Just drive down the Lynnway on weekends and you'll see throngs of people waiting (up to an hour) in the rain or bitter cold for a bus to Wonderland. There is an immediate need for more service in this corridor that is not being met; you can't deny that.

Other people don't like riding a bus, mostly because they don't like waiting for the bus. If you knew a warm (or cool in the summer) bus would always be waiting for you when you got off the train, you'd be happy to hop right on it. And, if you knew that the shuttle busses ran so frequently that you could essentially set your own schedule, you'd be more inclined to take it rather than driving your car into Boston.

The MBTA can and does organize such service, for example, when the Blue Line was shut down during periods of Orient Heights station construction. A steady flow of mostly empty busses was waiting as trains arrived at Wood Island; even late at night. But when the passengers were deposited at Wonderland station, many would wait hours longer for a jam-packed bus to Lynn! This very much illustrates the absurdity of the current situation!

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I ride the 111 daily... no need to explain about hoards of people waiting for a cramped bus. I totally understand this, as the 111 is like this ALL THE TIME. And to think the frequency is far greater than the Lynn buses and twice as crowded.

No, not riding a bus is a boston thing, its a mentality thing. I've been elsewhere and people have zero qualms about riding the bus, here.. you tell someone to ride the bus, they give you the same expression as you would if you wanted to inject them with rabies.

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I will just add that, in general, ferries are terrible money sinks and should only be used where there's no other choice. Trying to replace an existing CR line with a ferry is silly.

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On the south coast we saw the opposite, where established ferry routes are now competing with a $600mil money sucker dubbed the 'Greenbush Line'. Nearly every station relies on a sea of an over-abundance of parking spaces. Ferry terminals, however, could have been plopped near established South Coast villages and centers. In addition, it would have helped make existing ferry routes more efficient, by adding another terminal to an existing route. I'm sure it would have cost less than $600mil, and there'd be significantly less NIMBY outrage and tunnels bypassing town centers.

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I was thinking about Greenbush too, of course ;)

If you can replace a ferry with a rail line, then it's something to consider. Operating costs are lower. But you still have to amortize that savings across the value of the infrastructure, and depreciation.

I think that Greenbush was massively overbuilt and fails on the cost/benefit test in a number of ways.

I also don't think that we should build out any more commuter rail lines until the system is reformed to have lower operating costs. And we definitely should not build any stations in any towns that refuse to either (a) upzone around the station, or (b) pay a significantly higher assessment to cover the losses.

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I would like a reminder... why is getting the state to build transit do hard? I know the short answer is money. But somehow the state can still procure $34b for other items. And the usual explain political side to prioritizing is based on the political party. With tendency for Republicans to be car/highway friendly with Democrats preferring trains (and within the past 10 years bikes).

Yet, after almost 2 terms. I can't say the fire really heated up. I mean we did saw Davey pushing the margins so at least we can plan commutes better. We saw a lot of rebuilt stations despite some built very painfully and humiliatingly slow (but a few more on the recent side built more timely). And an infill station about to open. Yet, the really big projects that will actually alter the MBTA system map have remained stagnant. And this is under the party that suppose to like trains. How many terms does a party-that-supposedly-likes-trains needs to actually start building stuff that actually change the MBTA map?

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I place much of the blame on lack of will and backward thinking in underserved communities. For example, bridging the missing link from the Blue Line to Central Square would be a tremendous boon to the North Shore; particularly Revere and Lynn. Yet, Revere's mayor is obsessed with nothing but a casino, and the Lynnmayor is opposed to even extending the Rail Trail on abandoned MBTA property through her city!

Of course, mayors don't build transit systems, but forward thinking leadership can drive the agenda through lobbying and gathering community support for projects that will yield benefits many years in the future, rather then just within the next two or four years. There also prevails a misguided sentiment that rapid transit systems bring "the wrong element" into an area; an ignorant attitude that harkens back to segregationist ideas from the 1960's. Younger generations know this is wrong; they want efficient transportation that doesn't rely on cars, but more education is needed to convince the opposition that the world has changed.

Though he's been castigated for deliberately obstructing traffic on the George Washington Bridge, those few days of misery pale in comparison to the decades of future transportation headaches that will result from the New Jersey governor canceling the new train tunnel to Manhattan that was already under construction. The badly neeed tunnel would have alleviated existing congestion for Northeast Corridor trains, expanded capacity, and supplemented the only other (century old) tunnel between New York and New Jersey.

Although that's not our immediate neighborhood and (fortunately) not our governor, there's very much a similar mode of operation where crucial infrastructure projects are not driven as much by public need, as they are by how well they'll serve the political needs of certain elected officials.

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I was born and raised in Lynn. As a child, I remember asking the same question of MY parents. The answer I got was that No. Shore politicians were notoriously corrupt, particularly in Lynn. (Quincy got the Red Line, Burgin Parkway and tons of development because local pols actually did their jobs instead of stealing anything not nailed down.) Whenever people in Lynn made a few bucks, they moved to Lynnfield, Swampscott, Marblehead, anywhere else. Including the local pols like Rep. Jim Smith. (Google his name with pension scandal). The theoretically powerful state rep was Speaker Tom McGee, a guy with alcohol issues and more than a few skeletons in his closet. He was in no position to fight for his constituents. So now, 30-40-50 years later, where are we? Lynn is represented by Sen. Tom McGee JUNIOR and Congressman John Tierney. "Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose."

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This is a good point. The people representing Lynn doesn't seem to hit high on the clean card. Didn't in 2012 Lynn ran a deficit in the snow budget in a winter... with no snow. And the guy in charge of the budget? Jay Fink. He just retired to Florida and wasn't answering calls. They mayor said she will not be investigation. Then there's John Tierney....

I don't understand why people vote for these people. At least people like Lantigua of Lawrence, while enraging, I can see his support base is voted for him. But these politicians, how are they getting votes, are they really no aware or just capable of rationalizing so much they can't vote for an opponent?

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You really can't blame the voters when there's no meaningful choice. Most incumbents ran unopposed in the last Revere election and the one or two challengers had nothing different to offer. When there is competition for an office, the choices are typically between the least of two evils. Newcomers claim they'll sweep away entrenched corruption, only to make way for their own brand of patronage. It's a dirty, dirty business and honest people who want to play it clean usually don't stand a chance!

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Well, the one specifically in my mind was the Tierney-Tisei Race. One would think such a scandal would raise enough doubts in the mind of voter to at least not vote for Tierney. That turn out quite false. It seems the only way for one to remove a guy is either a direct indictment or conviction or even worse. Because it seems the no one change their votes on elections ever.

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That race was for a seat in the US House of Representatives. Tarnished as he was, more people held their nose and voted for Tierney, rather than giving another vote at the Federal level to Tisei's party, which seems to be mostly working to obstruct needed change.

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Jay's wife and kids are still in the area, and AFAIK he did not leave them. I'm pretty sure the whole family changed their mind about moving.

Anyway. Speaking of corruption and whatnot. How about the fact that the mayor of Lynn flat out REFUSES to accept the Bike to the Sea/Northern Strand Community Trail bike path? And she won't reveal her reasoning either, though there's suspicions of some sort of back-door dealings with the whole thing.

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Just to show I wasn't just making stuff up. This was the information I was operating: http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/05/16/former-lynn-dpw-commissioner-nothi...

If he came back that's good, probably. But yeah, I would defer to you then.

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The ONLY advantage a Lynnferry to Boston has over the Commuter Rail is the potential for serving alcohol on the Lynnferry. While I'm not opposed to that, I am opposed to public transit funds being used for the service, when there are so many other greater transit needs not being met.

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reneged on another promise. That would be to extend the Blue Line to Lynn, if I am reading this correctly. That's not gonna make a lot of people very happy.

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Gotcha. I still think it's the best idea, but increasing 441, 442 and 455 service for the time being (and maybe more 426W's to AND from Wonderland during the weekdays, not to replace the 426s to Haymarket mind you, but as extra supplemental service).

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It was a promise! It was part of the environmental mitigation agreement allowing construction of the Big Dig. In addition to the Blue Line to Salem (or at least, Lynn), the agreement required completion of the Blue-Red connection at Charles Station, and also the Green Line extension. The additional traffic created by the I-93 expansion and I-90 extension was projected to adversely affect North Shore air quality; and of course, the North Shore would pay huge tolls to use the Tobin Bridge and Harbor tunnels. These rapid transit projects were promised, as a means of mitigating the effects.

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and a one-way ticket on the train from Lynn is $9.

No... it's Zone 2: only $6. It's only $9 if it is Monday-Friday and you did not purchase your ticket at the fare machine... most commuters will either have a monthly pass or at least will have enough sense to purchase tickets off-board.

The ferry is going to be way more expensive to ride. And 2 round trips per day? Uh... huh. That's not usable. This is a joke, right?

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Lynn's Commuter Rail station is generally not all that busy, and the gigantic parking garage adjacent to the station has been 1/4 full for the past 15 years. However, the ferry sounds like a great way for people from Marblehead, Swampscott and Nahant to get to their office jobs without dealing with the great unwashed in Central Square.

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I only use it during vacations and snow emergencies, but I live nearby and it seems busier than it was a few years ago.

A lot of my downtown neighbors depend on that train, a new residential building is about to come online, and we just got word that another developer wants to build apartments above a business on Market Street. Use will go up. Granted, if you live within walking distance, you don't need to park there...

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