North End culture clash: Hard-charging young professionals who demand a place to get dinner late at night vs. older residents who want some quiet
The Boston Licensing Board tomorrow considers a request from a North End restaurateur to open a sushi place on Salem Street that would stay open until 12:30 a.m. Thursday through Saturday.
At a hearing today, Nicholas Leo and his attorney, Daniel Toscano, said Sushi Rock would cater to the growing population of young professionals into the neighborhood, who they said are eager for some healthy, non-Italian food that's available late at night, to match their aggressive work schedules, which don't stop when the clock hits 5 or even 6 p.m. Leo would buy the beer and wine license now held by Trattoria Pulcinella, which closed more than a year ago.
"You can only eat Italian food so many times a week," Leo, who already owns a pizza place in Woburn, said. "I eat it six days a week, but sometimes you need a change."
Toscano said the new locals also want a place that's in the confines of their safe neighborhood, rather than being forced to journey out late at night to riskier areas, such as Faneuil Hall or the Seaport.
But owners of units in the condo building at 77 Salem St., which would be across from the restaurant, said they don't think it's fair to them to let the restaurant stay open until 12:30 Thursday through Saturday and 11:30 p.m. the rest of the week. Too much noise, they said - and those rowdy eaters won't just leave when done; they'll linger on the street under their windows.
The residents got the backing of the mayor's office, City Councilor Sal LaMattina and the North End/Waterfront Residents Association, which urged the board to not let the restaurant stay open past midnight on weekends and 11 p.m. other nights. The North End Neighborhood Council backed Leo's proposed hours.
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Well, there goes
the neighborhood.
How "hard charging" can they
How "hard charging" can they really be if they are out past midnight on a week night? They likely won't be at their best for a regular work hour in the morning.
The difference is that the older residents are long term owners. The younger residents are often renters in the city for 3-5 years before they move back to the suburbs.
By "a weeknight" do you mean
By "a weeknight" do you mean "one weeknight"? Not being able to function on five or six hours of sleep isn't really a thing until your 30s and/or children.
So all the restaurants that
So all the restaurants that close at 11:30 can ensure that everyone is gone and far away at that minute? No one ever runs late and masses of people don't linger outside for a while?
"Not being able to function on five or six hours of sleep isn't really a thing until your 30s and/or children."
What?
That's not an accurate
That's not an accurate statement and makes you look foolish. Staying up past midnight does not impact your work the next day if you are a healthy person. Also, the majority of the people who own in the north end are no longer the "older" residents, take a look at the latest statistical figures.
The majority of people under
The majority of people under the age of 30 do not own their apartments in the North End.
Wow, 12:30 huh? That sure is
Wow, 12:30 huh? That sure is late. And to eat SUSHI? Don't these people know how LOUD eating sushi is?
12:30 on a Wednesday in a
12:30 on a Wednesday in a small residential neighborhood.
No, not on a Wednesday
12:30 on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday ...
They're proposing 11:30 p.m. closing Sunday through Wednesday.
12:30 on Thursday, and 11:30
12:30 on Thursday, and 11:30 on Wednesday, in a small residential neighborhood.
Definitely not on Wednesday
Because Wed is Prince spaghetti day...... (sorry)
Just the sheer thought of
Just the sheer thought of someone being up at 12:30 is keeping me awake at night. It's terrifying to think that someone might be sitting there, eating, maybe drinking, all while I'm trying to sleep. They think they can eat while I sleep?! NOT IN THIS TOWN!!
Oh, really? Everyone else
Oh, really? Everyone else seems to be worried about the transient, drunk, young, people streaming out of restaurants in large groups around midnight while long term residents have to deal with it.
So, what exactly are you worrying about again?
And you just know that's
And you just know that's gonna happen here. I mean, it'll happen anywhere people are allows to even look at the demon liquor sauce!!!!
It already happens. Feigning
It already happens. Feigning ignorance doesn't change the reality.
It's not happening.
It's not happening. Pretending the sky is falling doesn't change the reality.
The problems associated with
The problems associated with late night restaurants already exist in the North End.
after the restaurant closes
the concern of the residents is valid. What they do inside the restaurant is not the problem, it's the lingering on the street, talking loudly as they head home/to their cars/to the T/to a bar. Living in Allston, I know that people who don't think 12:30 at night is late also don't think they have to be quiet since "everyone is up" plus this street is just a short cut right? No one lives here! Normal conversational voices are loud at that time of night, let alone drunken conversations, shouting to your friends ahead, across the street, right effing next to you. It may not be enough of an issue to prevent the restaurant from opening, but it should be heard. Condo owners have invested more in the neighborhood than the cost of some sashimi, edamame, and some saki. (yes I know the restaurant owner has too - they're not worried about him shouting happy birthday 3 times over at 1 am when they have to get up at 5).
Naw
Just don't be a dbag about it and behave like you were still living in mom's basement in the burbs or in a dorm. Boston, Cambridge, Somerville, etc. are full of people who aren't living through prolonged adolescence in college. It's a 'college town' but not the same way one is in rural upstate NY or New England where you have a handful of 'townies' and a lot less density.
12:30 pm on a
WEEKNIGHT in a CITY neighborhood. Fixed it for you.
And let's be clear on one thing. Noise, especially in a CITY, is not the evil end all of civilization and will not result in the earth spinning off its axis if we allow it to continue. So perhaps we can stop the BS arguments and focus on real issues instead.
Quality of life for residents
Quality of life for residents of a neighborhood aren't real issues? What are you even talking about?
He's talking about the fact
He's talking about the fact this is an area smack in the middle of a major city. This is not the suburbs. You live in a city there's going to be some noise. A healthy city has decent food options at a variety of times not just on a strict old-fashioned 9-5 person's schedule.
Every area of a city should
Every area of a city should not accept loud late night people making noise as they already often do.
Some noise is expected, while
Some noise is expected, while some is unnecessary and inconsiderate.
Define "unnecessary and inconsiderate"
And "because it is a minor inconvenience to me" doesn't qualify.
residential neighborhood
IN THE CITY! this country is huge and wide open in many, many places. If you want a quiet place to live, it can easily be found for you, i'll even help if you want.
Just go ahead and totally
Just go ahead and totally ignore all the problems that drunk people walking out of a restaurant past midnight during a weeknight can create for residents of the neighborhood.
Just go ahead and totally
Just go ahead and totally assume any and all changes to the status quo will be a disaster.
Seriously, we're talking about eating sushi.
Eating.
Sushi.
I feel like I'm being punk'd even having this conversation. Like Ashton Kutcher's going to jump out and be like, "no, you aren't really going insane. We set you up to have this insane conversation about eating sushi being a major issue."
No. You are "talking about
No. You are "talking about eating sushi." Everyone else is concerned about the impact that swarms of people all leaving restaurants late at night have on residents of a neighborhood.
"Swarms" of people? Really?
"Swarms" of people? Really? Give me a break. There aren't "swarms" of people eating sushi (oh god! Maybe even with beer!) PERIOD. But suddenly there will be if the place is open late? On what planet?
There are certainly swarms of
There are certainly swarms of people who come out of whatever establishments stay open latest in the North End, of which, this would be one. The problem already exists, the only difference this time is the cuisine. You are woefully ignorant of the neighborhood.
Please tell us how often you
Please tell us how often you are out in the North End witnessing "swarms" of people before you tell us if we're "ignorant" or not.
Go hang out around closing
Go hang out around closing hour any night.
Frat bros don't get it
No one care if the place wants to serve sushi or chocolate covered cockroaches. no one cares if they serve alcohol, weed or cocaine. no one cares if they want to stay open 24 hours.
The problem is the clientele are going to leave this place making a lot of noise, flipping over trash cans, urinating on people's steps...etc. If they didn't..no one would complain.
For this very reason I did not buy a place in the North End. Way too many Suffolk students and 20 something frat bros.
the only places that should be open late in residential neighborhoods (yes, the North End is a residential neighborhood) area places that cater to higher end yuppies / life long residents...
I really don't understand why it is so hard for people to respectful of their neighborhood and neighbors...regardless of age. It may be because frat bros have this perception that they live in the "city" so every street should be treated like Landsowne St after a Sox game.
Luckily in South Boston life long residents and higher end yuppies far outnumber the cranky townies and frat bros.
- The Original SoBo Yuppie
the only places that should
Maybe the best course of action is to release the hounds on anyone making under $100K? That out to keep the rabble quiet!
nah..
Hounds are a little extreme.
Do you have any suggestions on how to convince the Frat Bro to be respectful?
SIGH!!
When are these old fart townies going to just die already!! My young, hip urban lifestyle isn't going to last forever!
Sarcasm off.
Let them keep the damn sushi place stay open. The North End is in 2014 a caricature of itself.
Yeah everyone's worried about
Yeah everyone's worried about the sushi, and not the alcohol or people noisily leaving the restaurant at the same time around midnight on a weeknight.
Sarcasm off.
It's a sushi place, not a bar
It's a sushi place, not a bar. How often have you gone to a sushi place, and proceeded to then cause a drunken late night ruckus? I don't even know you, and solely based on logical assumptions, I'm willing to guess it's between 0 and 1 times.
So only bars serve alcohol,
So only bars serve alcohol, and not restaurants? No one ever drinks in a bar then goes to a restaurant later? You are completely oblivious to the reality of the situation in the North End.
Riskier?
"riskier areas, such as Faneuil Hall or the Seaport"
Nothing risky about those places.
I am with the residents on this one unless it is going to be a high end place that caters to higher end yuppies and not 20-something frat bros.
- The Original SoBo Yuppie
Yeah, that was kind of weird
But the lawyer kept emphasizing "safety," as if Faneuil Hall were only accessible via remote mountain passes infested with highwaymen.
Thank you for that visual.
Thank you for that visual. Dying.
I feel like City Hall is
I feel like City Hall is about to devour me whenever I walk by
Stand and Deliver!
Adam and the Ants
(video, SFW)
Really!
I mean was the area around Faneuil Hall ever considered "risky"?
I guess if one is going to walk around the city late at night, there is always some risk but Fanueil Hall? I mean are they scared to be pelted with I "heart"
Boston T-shirts?
Well, there was a time ...
Like, wayyyyy back in the 1770s. Wearing a red coat might get you in a spot of trouble.
Yes!
And when Long Wharf was really, really, really long. Those wandering scurvy sailors looking for a bit of hardtack could be scary.
One does not simply
Walk over to Faneuil Hall.
Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume. Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly.
You have no idea of the north end....
If you don't live in the north end, you just look like an imbecile making comments. Been living here for 10 years and the salem street is not a residential area. It's a street filled with shops, restaurants, bakery's, etc. There is already a restaurant on Salem that has a 1pm closing time license. No one is turning over trash cans and urinating in the streets - and if they are, they are coming from Fanuel Hall, not a place that has like 20 bar stools.
Ten whole years, huh, old
Ten whole years, huh, old-timer?
Well, I guess it's all water over the dam at this point. The North End had already gone dbag by the time you moved in. I don't need to be a ten-year resident like you to see the changes.
If you have no rebuttal other
If you have no rebuttal other than name calling, why not just say nothing?
The rebuttal was that the
The rebuttal was that the neighborhood had already changed and was dealing with these issues by the time he had moved in.
Those are a lot of assertions
Those are a lot of assertions, which don't match what actually happens in the neighborhood.
I'm with the seniors. Eat
I'm with the seniors. Eat earlier and go to bed! Also, get off my lawn!
It's a very dense
It's a very dense neighborhood, and many of the younger transient visitors behave as if they are still in college, as has been shown on this very website.
They're especially wild once
They're especially wild once they get that sushi in them. The maki makes them murderous.
Nice hyperbole. So no
Nice hyperbole. So no alcohol will be served at these restaurants?
Oh God! Not ALCOHOL!! Let's
Oh God! Not ALCOHOL!! Let's break out those pearls and clutch them tightly!!!!
Oh, stop being such a twit.
Oh, stop being such a twit. No one minds if people walk quietly down the street at ANY hour. Clearly there's a history of restaurant patrons doing otherwise; if that wasn't the case, why would anyone care?
Twit.
The irony of calling someone
The irony of calling someone a twit in you ad hominem argument is lovely. Great argument.
One too many California Rolls and
watch out!
Who's worried about the
Who's worried about the cuisine? It's about the well documents problems late night establishments create in dense residential neighborhoods.
If you don't have a counter argument, just keep throwing around more non-sequiturs.
The North End is also a
The North End is also a hotspot for parents of Suffolk students to get them apartments to fill with people screaming and blasting music throughout the night. At least they'll have a place to get food between screaming sessions
What about the young people
What about the young people who are just past college age but still behave like they are in a dorm?
I still don't get it why
I still don't get it why parents of college students are renting apartments for them. I mean, I get it, but I don't get it. But if you've indulged your special snowflake for 18 years, I suppose it's hard to stop.
You don't have kids in college
Believe me, this has very little to do with overindulgence. It can be cheaper to rent an apartment and have them feed themselves than it is to get a meal plan and a dorm for $20,000 a year and up!
That isn't an exaggeration. Two kids in area colleges? Outright bargain!
It really is that simple. If you have an issue with it, take it up with the "our school has to have luxury dorms" fools at the local colleges.
/lucky mom of college student who commutes
Seriously, $20,000 just for
Seriously, $20,000 just for the DORM? People are insane to send their kids to a school like that, is all I can say. If you're going to be that level of stupid, it's on you.
Yes, seriously
It is actually worse for mid-level private schools where there are few alternatives.
The sad thing is, there aren't a lot of options. Most private colleges are playing this game! Their only competition is state schools, and those are getting a lot harder to get into as the smart kids call bullshit on all the debt.
I agree that it is crazy. Fortunately, so does my son. He knows that is a lot of debt that he doesn't need, so he chose to live at home and commute 10 miles round trip. His other final choice was Champlain (with a hefty scholarship) or UMass Lowell (20K a year total budget, with a small scholarship, $24K maximum in state).
My younger guy, well, we'll see. He's eminently sensible, and is talking UMass this or that, and may try to get into Harvard or Stanford (both of which cost reasonable amounts because they use their endowments to cut tuition).
Just because it is insane doesn't mean that you get a lot of choices if you want to send your kids to college.
Troof
Hear, hear. Whenever I leave the bar, I make a point of finding the closest window and screaming through it. Gotta make sure abutters know how well/not well my night is going.
The North End should to get over itself. Transient or not, young residents are ever bit as entitled to advocate for services they want in their neighborhoods as older residents are - you want to live in a city, it's incumbent upon older and newer residents to make compromises, period.
Inconsideration
Perhaps but it is also incumbent upon young residents to shut the f*** up.
You can go out with your friends and converse with them without stomping up and down stairwells, shouting [inside and outside], puking, or getting in fights. If people could learn to do that then nobody would care if people were out at 3:00 AM.
We're talking about a 30
We're talking about a 30 minute difference here. Ridiculous.
Chicken or the egg
Noise is a part of every city on the planet, and yet many are able to do just fine with expanded hours. I grew up here and I can assure that older residents will complain about ANY noise; that is both noise that is egregious, as well as normal street noise.
The real issue is not noise - it's who's making the noise. I'm sure North Enders would be happy to allow 12:30 hours if it was just North Enders partaking in it. But because it's yuppies, frat bros, hipsters, dinks, or godforbid people from the chi-chi parts of town, that there is this reaction.
"I'm sure"
...based on what?
My
own infallible, never-wrong intuition. If you don't think there's a "us" vs. "them" mentality amongst long-time residents, you can make your point. I think it's there, I succumb to it too, all too often.
Or might it be that younger
Or might it be that younger residents are more inclined to cause late night problems? Nah, you can just go on with your own prejudices you seem to have.
Attend any NEWRA meeting and
Attend any NEWRA meeting and tell me he/she is wrong. It's a parade of us vs them.
Oh, I don't doubt the
Oh, I don't doubt the existence of the attitude. But just because there's an "us" vs. "them" mentality, doesn't mean that all gripes about "them" are without merit.
Yeah "them" can be some f'ed up people, sometimes
but not all and there is the need for compromise else the whole process atrophies and everyone ends up losing out.
Resident vs. non-resident, and livability issues
I think a lot of the problem is that non-residents have no skin in the game. When they come to a neighborhood for entertainment, they have no interest in the livability of the neighborhood, and no concern for the condition of the neighborhood except as it affects them directly, in the narrow slice of time that they're there. There's always going to be some tension there. For example, if you consider the makeup of local businesses, except for a fairly small overlap, what serves tourists is not what serves residents: tourists don't support hardware stores and supermarkets, and while residents do eat out, they can't support the high restaurant densities that you find in areas like the North End. To me, the bottom line is that the tourists have wants while the residents have needs. This doesn't mean that you have no concessions to tourists, but I don't think it's reasonable to weigh the interests as if they're equal, when one constituency is just there on a spree.
If only they hadn't knocked down Scollay Sq
then Boston would have it's own Times Square-disneyland to draw away and confine tourists. But the two distinction I would make are that:
a) tourism in the North End is both a reality and a massive economic engine for the area. I understand your point better than you know - I moved to Copenhagen to attend grad school, live in the middle of a tourist area and have to walk a mile to get to the closest laundromat. It sounds like a small inconvenience, but it's ungodly frustrating. But Copenhagen, like the North End, also benefits immensely (monetarily, albeit) from the tourist trade.
b) There's a distinction between tourists (where I'm with on the frustration) and yuppies/newcomers/young residents. By not letting these sorts of proposals receive any sort of support, residents are depriving people from the right to contribute to the community. Noise problems are, sure, an annoyance - but this issue is bigger than noise. Believe me, I was born and raised in Cambridge and I am all too familiar with the knee-jerk reactions against certain kinds of development (city council meetings will make you want to claw your ears off) - but those reactions stifle the ability of people who are ever bit as entitled to propose and execute new ideas or new projects in the community in which they live. They aren't just tourists and yuppies - there's a lot of younger locals that support these too. We don't have the right to trample on others quality of life, but that's the risk the city takes when ever decision to open a bar or extend hours becomes a pitched battle.
Loud sushi?
I really don't think a sushi place is going to disturb anyone's sleep. I could understand if this was a bar or a restaurant that plays live music (I live near both), but it's just a sushi place. I also live near a late night Chinese takeout place and I have never once heard any noise from them.
Takeout food places don't
Takeout food places don't typically serve alcohol in this area, or cause masses of people to stream out of them at the same time in the middle of the night.
Who gets to decide that:
Who gets to decide that:
1) Anyone who wants dinner late at night is a "transient", and
2) The opinions of "transients" don't matter?
I'm all for efforts to keep a residential or mixed-use neighborhood reasonably quiet. But I can't stand this straw-man us-versus-them stuff.
Well...do YOU think that this
Well...do YOU think that this restaurant will draw the majority of its clientele from the immediate neighborhood? Think about it, the North End is saturated with restaurants -- it's mathematically impossible for them to be mostly serving residents.
Someone sounds like transient
Someone sounds like transient and doesn't like other people pointing it out.
Maybe it has to do with the
Maybe it has to do with the majority of the late night diners appearing to be under the age of 35.
I was in Paris, having dinner
I was in Paris, having dinner and wine in a cafe that was packed full at 11:30pm on a Thursday night. The neighboring cafes were also packed. People were drinking, smoking, and conversing, nobody was heard yelling anywhere. Paris seems to have figured this shit out.
Maybe there's something wrong with the way we raise our youth?
You're comparing Paris to
You're comparing Paris to Boston? bwhahahahaha!!!
Yeah, never learn from
Yeah, never learn from anything from other cities. Sure, people all over the planet manage to have late night restaurants, but lets close our eyes and pretend it's not happening.
anon (not verified) on Thu,
anon (not verified) on Thu, 10/16/2014 - 11:36am
Please, I encourage you to get outside of your bubble and travel to other countries and see other cultures. If you've ever been to Paris, then you will understand my comment that there really is no comparison. France and the United States are different cultures. That does not mean that one cannot learn from the other, it's simply a fact that they are different and it's silly to compare apples and oranges with the post at hand. Again, please educate yourself if at all possible. Thank you.
You are totally correct. They
You are totally correct. They're two different cultures. French people are from Mars, and Americans are from Venus. There's no comparison. End of debate. Let's stop talking about it. NANANANANA CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!
s l o w c l a p , s l o w
s l o w c l a p , s l o w c l a p
Look at the behavior modeled by adults
It's not just US culture, you can find plenty of instances in Europe where people feel themselves to be temporarily/situationally exempt from the normal rules of civilized behavior (some sporting events come to mind). Our culture may reward (or at least tolerate) people more for acting out in a wider range of circumstances, e.g., walking down the street after having a couple of drinks with dinner vs. at a football game. As far as raising the youths, well, they take their cue from how their elders behave and how that's received. If a child witnesses his/her parent acting in an inconsiderate manner, and either being rewarded for it ("Wow, Daddy just ignored that man who walked into the store ahead of him, and now he gets to be first in line!") or tolerated ("Hey, Mommy's not using her indoor voice, and everyone thinks she's really funny"), they'll grow up to do the same.
84 comments because residents
84 comments because residents who live across the street from a restaurant don't want the hours extended? Does anyone who has left a comment(s) a. live in the city of Boston and/or, b. live in the North End?