Get out the butter: Boston Olympics are toast

At a press conference at which he confirmed the decision, Gov. Baker said the state had a review schedule set in March and USOC knew that in March, so, meh. "I've never planned an Olympics before" and wanted to know how to do it right, he said. We can still use some of the Olympics proposals - like fixing "K Circle" in Dorchester, he said. Also, the Brattle Group report will have helpful hints.

Baker wouldn't strongly criticize the USOC but suggested they just don't understand how we do things here. He said he's lived here all his life, and one of the things he likes about Massachusetts is that "we do have loud and robust policy and political debates on stuff like this."

Walsh statement:

I strongly believe that bringing the Olympic Games back to the United States would be good for our country and would have brought long-term benefits to Boston. However, no benefit is so great that it is worth handing over the financial future of our City and our citizens were rightly hesitant to be supportive as a result. We always anticipated having the time to do our due diligence on the guarantees required and a full review of the risk and mitigation package proposed last week. This is a monumental decision that cannot be rushed, even if it means not moving forward with our bid for the 2024 Summer Games.

Excerpt from Boston 2024 statement:

Notwithstanding the promise of the original vision for the bid, and the soundness of the plan developed under Steve Pagliuca, we have not been able to get a majority of the citizens of Boston to support hosting the 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games. Therefore, the USOC does not think that the level of support enjoyed by Boston’s bid would allow it to prevail over great bids from Paris, Rome, Hamburg, Budapest or Toronto.

Boston 2024 has expressed confidence that, with more time, they could generate the public support necessary to win the bid and deliver a great Games. They also recognize, however, that we are out of time if the USOC is going to be able to consider a bid from another city. As a result, we have reached a mutual agreement to withdraw Boston’s bid to host the 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games.

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There will be no future bid.

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There will be no future bid. Boston, like Denver, is now going to be blacklisted by the USOC.

Minor difference

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Denver was awarded the games by the IOC, as in they beat out all the other cities in the US and internationally, too. It would be as if Boston had been awarded the games over Hamburg and Rome and whoever, and then pulled the plug in 2020.

Just like those DMU cars for

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Just like those DMU cars for the Commuter Rail would be helpful for making Boston better without the Olympics.

Too bad he cut them out of the budget.

He can't do that alone

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All expenditures are by the great and general court. He doesn't get a line item veto.

referendum

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Would it be smart to continue with the referendum that calls for not spending taxpayers money on any future Olympic Bids. 2028, 2032......?

No

If there were a non-grifting bid in 2080, I'm pretty sure the then Bostonians will support it.

So long as it's the "grab land in use by eminent domain" crowd, no bid is going to happen.

The referendum was intended to stop this particular mess, and I for one would not support tying the hands of future generations.

Oh come on. Not seriously?

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This was a harebrained scheme from the beginning with scant public support that started dwindling the minute they started talking details about how they were going to stick a volleyball court in the middle of the Common and how everyone was going to get to Franklin Park on pub trans. I'm not ready to give any credit at all to the Twitter nuts and definitely not the half dozen who showed up at Marty Walsh's house in the middle of the night. I give main props to the snow for shutting the T down and reminding us of how much work we need to have a well-functioning city,

Lighten Up!

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Terrible decisions are continually pushed through at the expense of the majority and the profit of the 1%. Politics much?

Why not give credit to everyone who "unpatriotically" voiced their opposition, whether they spoke up intelligently, emotionally, or just crankily? We were heard! If we were able to join together and make this go away, we can change some other stupid things around here, too.

LOL!!

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Ok--I admit I haven't read the whole story. I just felt from the beginning that support was extremely tepid and the more that was revealed--the money- and land-grabbing, the designs for the venues, the deep flaws in the planning re infrastructure and transportation and THEN the catastrophic snow, that it never had a chance (which was fine w me, btw). I just think the crazed anti-Olympics folks were wasting a lot of energy throwing water on a few dying albeit well-financed coals. But I guess if Marty wants to give them credit for shutting things down then they should bask in it.

As one of the ten, I think you're wrong

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What would happen if everyone just shuffled around mumbling "Yeah, I guess I don't want the Olympics here?" but no one stood up and said "No!"?

That's why going to community meetings and taking to social media was important. Did you go to any community meetings and see the contempt from Boston 2024 representatives like Nikko Mendoza? I, for one, thought it was extremely important to get my ass out there, stand at a microphone and ask questions to get ideas out.

So, if you want to call me crazy, go ahead. You wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last. One thing you can't call me is apathetic.

Oy!

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For Pete's sake--I didn't mean it so literally or personally. I still just believe that this thing was a goner from the start. And while yes, I do believe in speaking up and going to meetings and so on, I found a lot of the anti-Olympic stuff completely OTT for something that had a snowball's chance of actually happening. Then again I'm not a fan of Marty's union goons either which is partly why I didn't vote for the guy. I wouldn't have gone to one of those meetings if you paid me.

Seriously

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There should be a city-wide block party or something. There should be dancing.

I congratulate those

whose hard work and dedication, even with miniscule budgets, insisted on a little transparency. The bid could not survive the public release of documents, and so collapsed on its own, proving once again that sunshine is an awesome disinfectant.

'tis but a skirmish

The good guys need to be vigilant and to win every single one. The bad guys need only win once in a while.

will she remain at the globe?

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If the Olympics had flown, there could've been a revolving door for her.

Now her best bet might be to keep her Globe position, where she'll be known as a sympathetic ear the next time developers want to swindle the city.

(Congratulations and thank you to the governor and all those who helped shoot down the Olympics swindle! Now I know who I'll be voting for another term, and who I won't be.)

Next steps

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Let's fund the T, build more housing and tax underutilized land.

if only

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If only there was some sort of large event in the next 10 years that could help kick start such activities.

Thank you

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Thank you to Chris Dempsey and the No Boston Olympics people who risked significant black balling and their own careers to fight this ill-advised idea. And to the activists who allied with them and pushed the envelope. Lastly, thanks to the everyday residents who were smart enough to do their homework and realize this was an unnecessary distraction from the city's real issues. This is anything but a NIMBY exercise, this is regular people refusing to be told what is best for them by a select group of self-interested people without their inclusion or input. Bravo.

what will be interesting

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If the same people who were cheerleading this event keep trying to redevelop these 'blighted' and 'underutilized' swaths of land now that the bid has been canceled.

I some how don't think it will happen, but ya know, if they truly believed what they believed in, Boston 2024's main objective would still happen regardless of the games.

Good

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This means we're still on track.

See folks, we can have all the great things the Olympics can bring if we just work together to bring them here. And we can do it without the headache of the Olympics. All we have to do is believe...

Now let's fix the T...

I hope Widett/Newmarket is off the table for good.

Screw "Midtown."

Of all the points of class arrogance that were part of the Boston 2024 thinking, the assumption that everyone in Boston thinks Newmarket is a blight irked me the most. Newmarket is the only resource of its type in the area-- low income families can get decent quality meat and produce in quantity, and people like my household can actually afford to celebrate big events by getting supplied there. It's accessible by public transportation. And people who live in the surrounding neighborhoods can find work that pays better than the mostly crappy retail wages at South Bay. How is that going to be replaced by more high-end condos and restaurants? The waterfront/Fort Point development was mostly (not totally) in underused areas, and Ron is correct in pointing out the Columbia Point could use the help. But Newmarket is fine, thanks anyway.

A stadium plan for the Revs

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will hopefully be brought back to the forefront now for the area around the Fourth Street Bridge adjacent to I-93. The Olympic bid would have delayed any talk of a stadium until after the IOC selection. My support would be for a privately funded stadium, Mr. Kraft.

In addition, talks to purchase the USPS Annex must be stepped up for the expansion of South Station, which is critical for our transportation infrastructure.

Keirin Racing

When they banned greyhound racing in MA and opposition was crying about the jobs that it would cost and the entertainment it provided. I thought that the owners were fools for not converting the tracks to velodromes for keirin racing.

Pros:
1) You get to keep the gambling because keirin racing is a popular gambling sport in Asia, people that bet on the dogs could've been swayed to bet on bike racing with a bit of education on how it works.
2) A dog track is useless when there are not dogs racing on it. A velodrome can be used for track competitions in addition to the gambling use.
3) The lost jobs would either be kept or replaced with bike racers & mechanics.
4) (just for you) It would get some of those fixies off the street.

Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFRahWnA4YM

Nice Job People

Crankiness, Excuse me, Sanity, Reason, and Prudence win out over a naked aggression.

Let's hear it for not being in debt until 2067 owing to Team Handball.

aww come on

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why'd you have to pick on the one non-US-mainstream Olympic sport I really like?

BOSTON 2028!!!

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Just kidding. This had zero chance of happening anyway, but it was nice to argue about for the past several months.

So?

Onion rings with dinner tonight? Anyone?

If this was a Reddit board, I

If this was a Reddit board, I would probably get downvoted to hell. But I feel tinge of sadness than joy. I would have loved to been proven wrong - a best case scenario that made money, accelerated some projects, increase Boston's prestige, and proved to ourselves and everyone we can do a big project successfully including little infighting and no corruption.

Of course, that hope that already dashed months ago as graffs after graffs and leaks after leaks kept coming. The last hope of that scenario probably died when they released bid 2.0 and show they just doubled down on Widett Circle with a strong hint that was their real objective. Anyone lucking on ArchBoston would learn how insane the engineering it was would to pull that off.

If there was a choice, I think the best case scenario was the first paragraph. Not kill it dead scenario here. Of course, this is much more preferable than the path I have to admit it was looking to go. That, if successful, they would go as "planned" on Widett. The difficulty of making a deck for a stadium would raise the cost exponentially. We would get fleeced. Seeing no transit project was proposed nor an existing idea accelerated, we won't even see that. A lot of money made for a few big wigs, we get sacked debt by the costs of building that deck and stadium, infrastructure remained the same as before. The only positive I can kinda foresee might be a new neighborhood of "Midtown". But the costs was not going to justify the means.

So, this is much more preferable than that. But I would have like to see my ideal case - to be proven wrong and see all that happen.

And to those who want to sow salt so no one ever bids again. I cannot agree with that. I don't want to see a bid like this ever again in Boston. But if someone made a bid that benefits us - I would imagine some kind of bid that leverages the Universities with lands like Beacon Park/Suffolk Downs and done transparently with a plan that looks like Boston would not lose money (at least) - rather than this engineering nightmare and mess of a bid relying on the city for backup (and likely will have to use), I would be agreeable.

If the IOC was willing...

... to downsize the Olympics to a level that a city could put these on mostly by using existing resources, it would be different. But the Olympics are now about huge impacts and huge money.

When rumors first started.

When rumors first started. The news was still relatively fresh of the IOC reeling from Oslo turning away from the Olympics and all that stuff. Part of my old hope in 2024 did include that maybe IOC was also in a position that they would be okay with that again.

Edit: I should also note, this would assuming that Boston 2024 was also not corrupt and incompetent. Even if we were in the scenario of a desperate IOC still reeling that everyone saying it's a money loser with Paris and Hamburg not bid. We still need organizers that shows signs of bidding on terms that would benefit us - and pushing Widett Circle twice is likely the opposite.

Prestige?

What is the worst thing that can happen with the bid being dead? Somebody from Innsbruck doesn't stand in the middle of the intersection of Congress Street and State Street taking a picture in 2024? I can live with that.

Where do you live? Would you have wanted all the buses that are now at Cabot to be relocated to your neighborhood? They would have had to move for the kayak medal presentation.

This city will be fine. We have low unemployment, a low crime rate, terrible schools (No mention of that in any bid package), an expanding housing stock, and have had an incredible record with our sports and cultural resources in the past 15 years. Be happy.

If you want something shiny, go to the bank and ask them for a roll of new pennies. It only costs $0.50 and not billions after billions.

You asked, here's my response

What is the worst thing that can happen with the bid being dead? Somebody from Innsbruck doesn't stand in the middle of the intersection of Congress Street and State Street taking a picture in 2024? I can live with that.

Where do you live? Would you have wanted all the buses that are now at Cabot to be relocated to your neighborhood? They would have had to move for the kayak medal presentation.

I mentioned Suffolk Down and Beacon Park. Two locations that requires far less engineering and thus risks with likely lower starting costs. I'm pretty sure that implies Widett was a terrible idea. I mostly cite engineering risks and likelihood that it will explode to make us pay. But yes, dealing with the buses would also be a negative.

This city will be fine. We have low unemployment, a low crime rate, terrible schools (No mention of that in any bid package), an expanding housing stock, and have had an incredible record with our sports and cultural resources in the past 15 years. Be happy.

I never said Boston is ruined that this will not happen. Boston would be fine. Boston would even been fine even in the corrupt scenario - albeit limping. No scenario would have turned into something truly that would reduce us to Detroit or something. I said this is the second best case scenario of the roughly 3 main paths (success with hosting, no Olympics, or get sack by hosting it).

If you want something shiny, go to the bank and ask them for a roll of new pennies. It only costs $0.50 and not billions after billions.

Your dismissiveness is noted. I don't want to make some kind of huge internet fight here where inevitably I will have to start sound like some big Olympic supporter here. I am just stating I that rather see a good thing (I would say - if an Olympics or any *insert big project here* gets proposed that is designed that we come out better). We are celebrating the status quo - including we have found that once again our leaders are a bunch of corrupt buffoons. I think it's a reasonable thought that the ideal scenario would have been we were proven wrong instead.

"No Corruption"?

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It was ALL corruption.

As Dan Shaughnessy said, "In my view, there are only two groups of folks that favor bringing the Olympics to Boston: 1. People who stand to profit. 2, Hopelessly naive people."

Of course!

Horse and bicycle riding events and no motorcycle or car racing events in the Olympics.

Hooray Indycar Boston 2016 - we have something to celebrate!

indycar is a huge mistake

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not as big of a mistake as the olympics would have been, but it will definitely be something people regret. you seriously want to turn this city into Detroit? This event is usually a move by a city desperate for money, and the neighborhoods who are within 2 miles of the race will HATE IT. I give it one year.

Shank

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We killed Boston2024. And I agree with the Curly Haired Boyfriend on something!

It's a day for the history books

Excuse me, reddit wants

Excuse me, reddit wants Boston to become a cultureless intelligencia only community like San Francsico. Its population of college kids and overpaid computer nerds will hold you in high praise for any comment that looks positive.

Oh no!

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That was such a click bait bonanza while it lasted. Oh well, there's still bike lanes, southie townies and great white guilt...

We still have space-saver

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We still have space-saver outrage. It's a few months away, but I'm looking forward to it.

Last time morons

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Townies are from Charlestown, a small one square mile neighborhood north of the City.

Capital-T Townies, yes.

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Capital-T Townies, yes. Lowercase-t townies, neeeewwp! You know the term did not originate with Charlestown and is by no means exclusive to the neighborhood, right? There is a whole big world outside, go introduce yourself to it someday.

I don't know about that

Tito was on Howie Carr (!) yesterday and when our local Klansman radio host mentioned that he wasn't so popular amongst Jackson's constituents, Jackson let it slide and kept mentioning his four opponents. To say I found it off putting would be an understatement.

Does anyone know if this

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Does anyone know if this means Franklin Park won't get any beauty salon money?

Can we still get some horses?

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I can still dream about horseback riding in Franklin Park, right? I don't need a Ann Romney-style dressage horse--any old moke will do.

Oh no!

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That was such a click bait bonanza while it lasted. Oh well, there's still bike lanes, southie townies and great white guilt...

Maybe I'm the only one but....

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I'm kinda sad that we're out of the running.

I'm 100% sick of seeing (but never reading) the every-single-day story on the front page about the Olympics. Despite that, it would have been a real kick to have the games here. Would we have lost money? Probably. Would it have been awesome to be the focal point of the world for a couple weeks? Sure.

In the end, I never really thought we'd get it, but I really did like the idea, even if it turned out to be a costly pain.

Kick, Indeed

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You can probably get the same kick by writing a check for a few thousand to John Fish and attending a couple of local swim meets.

I agree

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To be honest, my bet is still with Hamburg or Paris, which never changed. Still, we were going to be the representative of the United States, and with what everyone has been saying about the Hudson Yards redevelopment in New York, even losing would have been winning.

The fiscally sound side of me is happy with how things ended up going down. We didn't reject the USOC. They decided not to go with us. If we rejected the bid outright (through a vote or acts of politicians) my feeling is that we would once again be seen as a city where things can't get done. This way, it has been reinforced that we can do things, but we are not willing to break the bank to get it done.

I was looking forward to the pentathlon. And all the infrastructure improvements they were throwing around. Now, without the deadline, I guess we'll see work on Kosciuszko Circle begin in the spring of 2030.

Whoa

"we would once again be seen as a city where things can't get done"

How soon we forget that we undertook the largest highway project in US history and completely reconstructed our downtown not too long ago.

Yeah, but

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Ask anyone about the Big Dig. Sure, thinking folk can easily see how things got better, but both in Boston and outside, they still gripe. To be fair, the cost overruns were horrible.

As far as downtown development goes, most of us still call in the Filenes Hole.

Of course, the moral of the story of sports development projects in Boston is that we will not front public money. Too bad the rest of the country can't figure that out, but the Krafts learned.

Yes, yes...

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and at only over budget by a factor of what? Oh, never mind, it was a bargain!

It had to happen...

I didn't like the idea from the first moment I heard it. I didn't support it. I still don't. There is a small part of me though that was a little excited at the though that Boston could fix the Olympic mess that has been the case of late. Part of me wanted to be proven wrong, that Boston could provide a plan that made sense for the community and economically. The IOC is just not a reasonable organization. The mayor is 100% right to need to read something before signing it. That's just business 101.

I wonder if Deval Patrick would have made the difference at $7,500 a day?

Don't go cheering Marty so quickly...

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The mayor is 100% right to need to read something before signing it.

Yeah, I just wish he'd have taken that position, oh...months ago?

Marty's just trying to come out looking like a good guy after months and months of sleaziness.

I agree but...

I agree that he should have been firmer sooner but what I always tell my children is true here as well, "Now is always the best time to do the right thing." Even past mistakes don't preclude you from doing the right thing right now. Maybe it's all a political calculation or maybe he learned something these past few months. Bash him for what he did before but give him some credit for making a valid point. It's all reasonable.

Well done, adamg!

UHub was my main source of news about Boston2024's nefarious deeds. It's a big reason (apart from learning how awful the IOC is in general) that I opposed bringing the Olympics to Boston, and the whole affair has gotten me more into local politics.

This feels like a win for the little people! Keep up the good work!

support for universl hub

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So let's put our money where our mouth is and support Universal Hub as the only legitimate source of unbiased news in this city. DONATE today!

The "left"?

You don't think plenty of politically conservative Bostonians were also troubled by the alleged Olympics plans.

Don't forget about the moderates

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I sometimes joke about how I'm the rarest of rare birds in Massachusetts - an unenrolled, moderate issues voter.

I vote for Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Unenrolleds. It doesn't matter what letter they have next to their names.

I have never seen anything

I have never seen anything before on UHub that have raised such a collective. A topic that generated 100+ comments, but people from all range from Markkk to Swirrly express dissent. All types of views.

I might be closest to "support" here - comparatively, as in I recognizes that I would have like to been proven wrong and we get tons of things fixed with Boston getting oodles of money. I'm okay if we were "defeated" like that.

Regardless, this was from all spectrum.

Yes

All the fiscal conservatives on the "left" won. *massive eye roll* ...this may be the least partisan issue in Boston history.

Almost

> least partisan issue in Boston history.

Celebrating the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004 might edge this out...

All righty then

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Over, done, the world is improved by one less irrelevant distraction for people to foam at the mouth about.

Interesting Logic

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Basically the primary argument was - don't saddle us with a bill and many of us would actually consider the Olympics. So instead of the USOC coming out and saying "We are so confident you won't get hit with a big overrun, we'll (somehow) guarantee it - safe in the knowledge that such an occurrence would never have come to pass".

So the mayor calls their bluff and says - we won't sign anything that commits us to overruns and mortgage our future - a few hours later they kick Boston to the curb because they know how this really works.

That should be a warning to you LA - Coliseum and facilities notwithstanding.

Very different era

It was still the cold war and after the US boycott of the Moscow Olympics over the invasion of Afghanistan (which pretty much led to the Soviet and eastern bloc nations boycotting the games in LA). Leading up to the 1984 games the losses in Montreal and the low interest from other cities gave LA some leverage. They used mostly existing facilities, didn't have to guarantee to cover the losses and were given a much bigger cut of the television revenue.

The political winds are shifting again and the USOC & IOC seem to be acknowledging that a bit in what they are looking for in bids but they are not ready to put their money where their mouth is just yet.

Yay, because the Big Dig went so well

staying on promised budget and didn't leak that we would need to do it again with more big projects!

Yeah, and we need T unions to have us over a barrel demanding more workers, pay, benefits, and retirement with the Olympics as leverage because people getting to work every day isn't leverage enough.

Remember Rio. IOC is rightly nervous about it. How things go or fail will impact future bids.

Nervous about Tokyo, too

as they just scrubbed their entire plan for a new stadium -- after already demolishing the previous stadium that they could have renovated for the purpose.

Hooray hooray hooray!!!

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I've just returned from 10 days completely off the grid and this was the first news alert on my phone. Best news I could wish to turn on phone for! Special thanks to all who kept asking questions and especially to Adam and others for ensuring coverage wasn't all Shirley's voice. We are a world class city - today more than ever!

WOOOOOO!!!!!!!

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Praise be to Jebus! Admiral Ackbar! Happy Quanza!
Whatever! No cluster-bang 2024! This is a huge victory for public opinion!
It must be some kind of milestone that a people's government did NOT sell out their future for personal monetary gain! I am still proud to live in Massachusetts!!

Boycott

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I'm still not going to patronize all the restaurants, bars and businesses who were foolish enough to post the Boston 2024 Olympic signs in their windows.

Not A Witch Hunt, but

I only saw Amrehin's and Mul's with signs for B24. Where else? I like those places but I was a wee jaded when I saw the signs.

reminds me if another failed campaign...or two

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I was thinking about it and realized the whole Boston 2024 campaign had an air similar to both of Coakley's failed campaigns - a perceived attitude of entitlement, that they could tell the public what to think/believe and we would just accept it because of the clout of those who were telling us these things. It's certainly not the same but I can see parallels, for sure.

WAISTED A LOT OF TIME!!!!!!!

Oh my god, Trump. Oh my GOD. On the one hand: literally the funniest thing ever to happen to the Republican party. On the other hand: if he ever shows up in Boston, I will personally re-enact a variation on the tea party, and dump (lukewarm) tea on his awful, awful hair.

Except it isn't funny

The mere fact that this egotistical blowhard is taken seriously by a great many of the American people is not only sad and pathetic, but it's a sign the idiocracy is now.

The GOP has literally become the clown car of the political process.

As opposed to...

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The paddywagon of the political process where Hillary may end up?

(don't get me wrong - Trump is a blowhard and he will disappear from the scene after he gets embarrassed in a debate or two).

Just saying - The dems have a (potential) felon and a communist leading their pack (and sadly nobody has even heard about the two moderate mid-Atlantic Dems that many would like to learn more about).

A wha??

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Communist? Socialist, please. I mean, if you're going to grease the slope like that why not just Stalinofascist-crypto-Nazi?

Stevil had to change the subject

Stevil had to change the subject because Trump is the most popular candidate in the Republican primary in a field of 16? candidates including Governors, Senators, neurosurgeons and CEOS. So Stevil called Democratic candidates-- Hillary and Bernie-- names.

What does Donald Trump's popularity among the Republican base say about the Republican base?

What does Stevil's deflection says about Stevil?

Says I'm a moderate that hates partisans

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Listen - Trump is a laughing stock - but don't get carried away - the "most popular candidate" is polling at 18% last I read. That means 82% don't support him. And that's less than half the population - so he has the "support" of about 7-9% of the people (and the analysis points to it being more of a protest vote than actual support - at a time when it is still irrelevant). There are an equal number of numnutzes on the left - for example the Bernie supporters. It takes two sides to have a lunatic fringe on each end of a bell curve. Neither Trump nor Bernie will be more than a footnote come next November.

As for me - you don't have to speculate - I hate it when one party controls everything. We need a Democrat in the White House to keep the partisans in check. I won't vote for Bernie. I was planning to vote for Hillary (reluctantly because I don't want a Bush or a Clinton). She's VERY competent - but this email thing seems to indicate she's above the law - and while I doubt it because the Clintons are Teflon, the paddywagon may still come for her - and she may deserve it - we'll see. I like what I see from Jim Webb. And Martin O'Malley deserves a look. If you are a true Democrat - I'd look too - because both of them seem to be quite electable - without the baggage.

The comment wasn't pro-anything - the point was that there's a circus to be had on both sides. (and Sally - sorry - left my snark button on off). Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Hold on...

You really think they'll be able to nail Hillary over a few e-mails? Benghazi has been a non starter for the GOP, yet they keep hanging on to it like abortion and gay marriage. Why? They like to fund raise off of the hate and fear.

I'm not 100% thrilled with Hillary either, but she's the best of a very bad lot. I like Sanders' populist message, but he'll never get the nom.

Could be more than a few

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Without question she broke policy. We'll have to wait and see if she broke the law.

Best of a bad lot? Perhaps - my concern is O'Malley and Webb have excellent resumes - but I never hear their names mentioned so I don't know anything about them. I'll have to go to their websites and do some reading.

I'll probably have to hold my nose and vote for Hillary too because I don't want the Republicans to run amok unchecked. They do a good enough job of that with a Democrat in the White House.

There are checks and balances in the Constitution for a reason. They work. Voters would do well to remember that no matter what office you are voting for.

Trump is a laughing stock as is the GOP

the "most popular candidate" is polling at 18% last I read. That means 82% don't support him.

In a field of 16, polling at 18% is most-favored candidate status.

We'll check again after the first debate in August.

Your initial response to the criticism about what the GOP has become is to call Clinton and Sanders names. Your second response is to call Sanders supporters 'numnutzes,' more names.

Sanders argues the middle class and poor should reap the fruit of their labor. He got 5,000 in Louisiana Sunday, 3x more than any other candidate.

If you think a valid case has been made that Clinton violated the law, you're not following the news closely enough. If you fail to recognize this is how Republicans campaign-- manufacturing dirt-- you're the numnutz.

The "both sides" false equivalency analysis isn't always a reasonable analysis. There is no one on the left running for president like Trump. Your critique of the left is that Hillary is dirty and Sanders is a loon followed by numnutzs. That is not an equivalency, it's a smear.

Side show

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Bernie and Trump are pre-game side shows - kind of like the sausage race at minor league games. They will be irrelevant a year from now. Both push the dialogue - Bernie for worker rights and Trump for getting politicians to be less scripted (and Bernie's appeal is probably similar-but don't bet on that horse unless you care to make a donation to the track).

Other than some snark - no firm evidence Hillary did anything more than break policy of the organization she ran (if I did that - the state would either shut me down or fine me out of existence). This does not appear to be Benghazi where there was lots of smoke and no fire (I never understood exactly what the Republicans were looking for other than air time on that one). However, there is pretty clear evidence she risked national security with her careless actions. I am very troubled that she did this as Secretary of State - and she's a brilliant woman - she knew EXACTLY what she was doing. This isn't dirt - this is sewage. I brushed it under the carpet when I first heard about this from my Fox watching friends. But then I read a few more articles on news sites and it is very troubling. Granted, Clintons are Teflon - so she'll probably skate.

If she considered herself above the law as Secretary of State - what happens when she's head of state? Does she become God?

I still may vote for her - because she's probably the most qualified of the whole bunch and I am desperate to have a check on the R's in congress, but my opinion of her has gone down significantly. I'll likely vote here in the Democratic primary. Bernie won't get that vote, Hillary might - but I'll be looking closely at Webb and O'Malley and any others that might come out of the woodwork.

oh, definitely

It's a clown car full of Pennywises, and the car is driving off a cliff, and they're trying to drag us all with them. Trump's supporters, mystifying in their large numbers, are a sad group of crazies - as McCain correctly noted. Trump himself remains a laugh riot, though. He's a perfect storm of ego and id, and while I'm shipping back off to Australia if he actually makes it beyond his current state as a curiosity, I'm having a hell of lot of fun mocking him on the internet in the meantime.

they are.

But there's a glimmer of hope: federal election in 2016. Labor may still be too much of a mess to win, but I bet you anything the Coalition will finally kick Abbott to the curb. He's an idiot, and an unpopular idiot at that.

Congrats, UHub regulars

No, not for the Olympic thing. For having a centi-thread that doesn't directly involve bikes, cars, students, yuppies, snow or guns. Well done.

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