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Residents get few answers they like at $25-million meeting with FAA over Logan flight paths

FAA officials spent 3 1/2 hours listening to residents and elected officials rip into the way planes now fly over a host of communities, at a Milton meeting on Thursday that they agreed to attend only after US Rep. Stephen Lynch threatened to cut the agency's budget for community outreach by $25 million.

The meeting brought out several hundred people from Belmont to Hull, to complain that a new GPS-based flight-path system may be great for airline profits and schedules, but means unlucky residents are now subjected to endless waves of planes, often starting at 5 a.m., for days on end, because of the way it slots planes into very narrow air corridors. Residents also said planes are flying lower than they used to, further contributing to the noise.

One Milton mother blamed the system for almost killing her four-year-old son: He ran out of the house and into the path of an oncoming car - and couldn't hear her screaming at him to stop because a Southwest jet was flying low and overhead at that exact moment. Fortunately, she said, the driver was alert enough to stop before hitting her son.

Other residents talked of the prolonged health risks, from jet exhaust to being unable to get enough sleep. One Belmont resident said the noise from planes has driven him from his third-floor bedroom with his wife to a mattress in the family's unfinished basement. A Hull resident said she worries she could lose her accounting job because she can no longer get enough sleep due to planes that start roaring overhead at 5 a.m.

"The impact on quality of life is just beyond description," state Sen. Brian Joyce (Milton) said.

Father James Diperri, who was the lead plaintiff in a class action suit against Massport over noise in South Boston in 1980, said he couldn't believe he had to show up at another noise meeting 35 years later - and threaten Massport and the FAA with another possible lawsuit.

State Rep. Walter Timilty (Milton), said he understands Milton is part of a large metropolitan area, that he is not opposed to all planes, but that residents just want them dispersed over a wider area, as they were before. "We're simply seeking equity," he said.

That theme was echoed by US Rep. Michael Capuano, who lives atop Somerville's Winter Hill. "I'll take my fair share (of noise), but give me a break," Capuano said. "Just shift it a half mile for a couple hours." He said the new technology should be flexible enough to allow for such changes, so that no one narrow area has to bear the brunt of a large amount of jet noise.

Todd Friedenberg, deputy regional FAA administrator, said RNAV is still a work in progress and that the FAA does have a system in place in which Massport and a Citizens Advisory Committee - made up of representatives from 30 communities and Boston neighborhoods - can request changes to specific flight paths.

But Darryl Pomickter of Beacon Hill, president of the citizen group, all but snorted at that. Pomickter, who said there is a "quiet valley" consisting of Brookline and Newton, over which few planes fly, said Massport refuses to give the committee even the most basic of information on runway use.

"Your data is crap," a resident of West Roxbury's Bellevue Hill said. He said he knows that firsthand because Massport stats on complaints from West Roxbury are lower than just the number of complaints he personally files.

When not listening, FAA officials mostly told residents why their requests could not be fulfilled. One Hull resident asked when departing planes can't simply be moved a mile further out over water; FAA officials said that would get them too close to planes arriving via another runway.

The FAA officials present declined to answer any questions at all about potential health issues, because their health expert was not with them. They also did not bring any information about patterns of arriving flights.

Residents asked why Logan couldn't have a curfew. Flavio Leo, manager of aviation planning at Massport, said the airport is run 24/7 - and denied assertions by residents that it used to ban flights before 7 a.m.

The endless no answers were not cutting it with Lynch.

"Reducing noise on the ground is not a priority under this system, so we have to change this system," he said. Lynch said Logan can be more accomodating when its officials want to be. He said Massport agreed with his request last month to ensure no planes flew over South Boston for two hours for a Veterans Day commemorations.

One of the few things FAA officials and residents agreed on is that the problem is a regional one.

Jeanne DuBois of Roslindale urged residents of the various communities to join in a single group to press for FAA action. "Don't shove all these planes onto Roslindale," she said.

US Rep. Katherine Clark said in her short time in office, Logan noise has become one of the top issues her constituents complain to her about.

Boston City Councilors Tim McCarthy (Hyde Park, Roslindale, Mattapan), Ayanna Pressley (at large) and Michael Flaherty (at large) also attended. With McCarthy in the lead, the Boston City Council held a hearing on Logan noise this past April, which the FAA refused to attend.

As the Milton hearing drew to a close, McCarthy said he didn't think he got any more useful information from the FAA than he did in April.


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Comments

Cut the budget. They did not attend in good faith. They deflected every health concern because they didn't bother to bring the right experts, they had diagrams on hand for every runway EXCEPT the most problematic of the bunch. Cut the budget now. Let them crawl back when they're prepared to act like adults.

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And Lynch was acting like an adult when he said this? That was probably the most disturbing thing about this whole meeting.. he bullied them into coming. I wouldn't exactly be accommodating if I was threatened either.

"I'm not getting my way so I am going to threaten you with budget cuts into coming"

BS BS BS BS

EDIT: Re-canting this opinion for a lack of detail on what the 25mil was for. Adam has explained what it was for. See below.

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The Power of the Purse is pretty well entrenched as a tool that a US representative has. The fact that he's using it to ensure that a federal agency (FAA is part of DOT which is headed by a cabinet position reporting to the President) is responding to his local constituents is ok in my book.

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I agree something needs to be done, but at the same time we don't want to completely emulate Orange County:
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/john-364661-wayne-airport.html

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I fly out of there all the time, and while there is an adjustment for passengers, once you are accustomed to the steep ascents, it's not a big deal. I've been thinking for a while that some combination of steeper incline and better effort to route planes over the harbor and bay during the first 10,000 feet would greatly ease the problem.

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It puts unnecessary strain on the planes for no other reason than rich people get what they want.

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it's happening everywhere. I read something a while ago about LAX and their new system. There were sound maps.

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Steeper ascents are not a very good solution as they require much more engine thrust and thus create a lot more noise for those underneath. Slow ascents can be very quiet and are used in many European airports. The airlines do not like them because it slows down the flights. Tough. We own the airspace above as as Commons - it is not the property of the airlines.

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Or, they could just insert a little random delta into the software to fan out the airplanes over a wider corridor.

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We had that problem in Jamaica Plain for years. People complained about it for many years.

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It is still bad in JP if you are near Franklin Park. Sometimes I will go to bed and hear planes after 11PM and be woken up by planes at 5:30AM.

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About 20 years ago Atlanta had a similar problem. They launched a aggressive program that provided sound proofing to all houses in the flight path of the airport. They even purchased an entire neighborhood and razed it to the ground. Problem solved.

I don't know why MassPort can't do something similar.

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It would cost far too much.

MassPort did something similar for residents of Winthrop, Eastie, and Chelsea years ago due to a lawsuit. And the sound proofing doesn't really work all that well. It just dulls the sound. (I know, I have triple paned windows as recommended by MassPort to muffle the sound)

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I grew up in the flight path of many planes going in and out of SFO. Like here, it was a huge issue because SFO changed their flight paths and what went from a few planes turned into an overhead roar at least once every 20-30 minutes or so. Our city sued and won for soundproofing houses and school buildings whose air traffic noise levels were above a certain threshold. It helps a bit, but you have to keep your windows closed all the time for it to have any sort of meaningful affect on the noise level. And when you're outside? Still an issue. So it was better than nothing, but the house still occasionally shakes from a particularly low plane passing and is not a great solution.

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Hah, I was just going to suggest an idea like the soundproofing, but never having heard of it ever being done before, I wasn't sure if it was even feasible.

This is what they do when the build highways nowadays; the state builds 20'-high "noise abatement walls" between the highway and the neighborhoods it passes through. So require them to pay for similar soundproofing to be done in people's homes. It won't reduce the noise in people's yards, but it'll certainly help with the sleeping issues.

Another question: Why has no one ever looked into creating and mandating jet noise reduction at the source? Jets have been around for nearly a century, and no one's figured out how to build a "jet muffler" and then have it become required equipment on all airplanes?

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Fuel is the biggest cost in operating a plane. Noise is wasted fuel - it's energy expended vibrating air, not propelling the plane forward. So there's a huge incentive for plane manufacturers to reduce noise and they're spending billions in R&D to that end. They've made enormous advances but it's not easy - jet engines are noisy by nature as are huge objects hurtling through space.

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that build jet engines out of junkyard turbochargers. They are deafening. Hey, the thrust comes from the jet blast. Not sure what you can do with that.

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The stage 4 engines in use today are many times more fule efficient and quieter than the stage 2 and 3 engines in use in the previous decades.

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They did - much of Wintrhop, East Boston, and Revere has had sound proofing paid for by Massport

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It's hard to tell but from the map someone posted on Twitter it appears there is a "blackout" zone over Brookline where the planes specifically are programmed to avoid even though it would appear it would be quicker to go over that town.

Is this true? Why the special treatment?

If it's possible to have a no-go area, why not periodically shift the "quiet" zones so that neighborhoods sometimes get a year-long break from the noise?

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I think concepts of cabals and conspiracies are generally overblown, but in this case there are a lot, lot of very rich and connected people in Brookline and Newton and Hingham and if you look at the maps, those are not impacted by plane noise.

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I found it interesting people from Milton were complaining about "those rich towns to the west". Because the town Deval Patrick and Abby Johnson live in doesn't qualify as rich...

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Why hasn't noted Milton resident S Leung on the case here?

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Using Logan's realtime tracking tool I just watch flight WIG8310 fly right over Brookline. Not sure the altitude.

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Not true that Newton and Brookline exercised political muscle to avoid any overflights. The Runway 27 corridor was the result of complex negotiations between the R27 committee - made up of public activists (many from JP, Roxbury, South End), and Massport and the FAA. It was designed to thread departures over the least populated area. There was fear that fanning would allow Massport to increase the volume of traffic over the entire area so a restricted corridor kept volume down. But much has changed in the past decades - decreased traffic, quieter jets - so the agreement is out of date. It should be rescinded which may require a citizen lawsuit and action on Beacon Hill.

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The citywide planning process has a map showing where the lowest income, least white and most under served by transportation people live in Boston. And guess what? It's precisely the narrow line under the flight path of Runway 27... and the new GPS system put in place to funnel more flights over a narrower band of airspace. This is injustice. Share the noise with Brookline and Newton.

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Without knowing for sure, I suspect that the so-called "blackout" over that area is because traffic departing from runway 27, which would otherwise go directly over Newton/Brookline, has to turn left beforehand because of the tall buildings downtown (even if aircraft can clear the buildings, safety margins, such as "one-engine inoperative" procedures, might prescribe such a turn).

I can tell you from my many years of experience living in Brookline that traffic that departures from runway 33L routinely fly over this area, as it turns left to go back out over the ocean (this is particularly true for wide-body transatlantic flights). I used to be able to tell about what time it was by looking up and seeing the liveries of certain foreign-flagged aircraft flying overhead. It is worth noting, however, that this traffic is higher over Newton/Brookline that it is over Somerville and Cambridge (and thereby generates less noise in the former than the latter), but this is just a function of geography and flight dynamics, not some sophisticated conspiracy to protect the ears of those living in "leafy" "tony" Brookline/Newton "manses". (Do I win Herald Bingo?).

In short, I do not believe that there any purposely imposed "special treatment" or "quiet zones" at play in that area.

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Excellent summary of one of the most frustrating public meetings I've ever attended (and I'm impressed you stayed the whole time; I left after 2.5 hours). I thought Lynch and Capuano did a great job and hope they have other opportunities to force the FAA to make changes, since it was pretty apparent that the FAA and Massport had no interest in any of the concerns raised by citizens from a wide range of greater Boston towns and only further congressional threats, or maybe a lawsuit, will make them change.

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I was pretty vocal about this on twitter when Adam was live tweeting this meeting, but...

I really have no sympathy for these people. It's very hard for me to have any because I live in a flight path. And yes, I knew about the flight path long before I moved to Chelsea so knew what I was getting into. But I've learned to deal and simply ignore the noise.

These delicate flowers need to suck it up some. I'll open up my home and invite anyone from these meetings to come to my house to hear what real airplane noise sounds like. Because I'm willing to guess that the noise over their houses are far less than it is over mine. And I guarantee that these people will go back to their homes and go "gee maybe this isn't so bad".

Flights land/takeoff over my house every 3-5 minutes 4x a week. It is an absolute given. When they are over head, you cannot hear a single thing, and it's so loud you vibrate (and so does your house). Talk about loud...

Other residents talked of the prolonged health risks, from jet exhaust to being unable to get enough sleep.

"The impact on quality of life is just beyond description," state Sen. Brian Joyce (Milton) said.

Really so my quality of life and health risks do not matter? Do these people know something that I don't about the "prolonged health risks of jet fuel" ? Because, again, we bear most of the flight paths over our neighborhood.

The pearl clutching on this issue is almost comical.

Again I'm sorry for the tone of this post, but I really cannot have any sympathy for anyone who complains about this because I deal with this on an almost daily basis at home. And for the sheer fact that, we live in a metropolitan area with an airport that is a major hub for the country. You cannot have "more non-stop destinations" without increased air traffic. You want less noise, then prepare to have less flights, less non-stop flights, and more delays and cancellations. So much for a "World Class City".

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Personally, I have zero problem with some air noise over Roslindale when the wind patterns so dictate. I do think it's total bullshit though that the very rich folks living 2 miles away in South Brookline never have to deal with it, apparently through federal policy. The fact that this is a GPS system, not some fixed landmark system should make it easier to shift around.

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It is not a federal policy - it is the result of a court settlement between the R27 citizens group and Massport/FAA.

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One major difference, you knew about the noise and chose to move into the area. These folks were their first. The flight plans were changed with no regard to the impact the changes would cause.

As for the tone of your post, it seems that you are proud of the fact that you are putting up with the noise, good for you your choice.
Referring to others as pearl clutching delicate flowers is an ad hominem attack that serves no useful purpose.

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Are you claiming that these 5AM American Airlines flights have been going on forever?

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They were not happening - they are a new occurrence of past several years.

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It's all well and good to say that you have it worse because you live next to the airport. Many of these people didn't sign up to live under an approach path that has planes arriving every 90 seconds all day long.

So it's not as intense as what you choose to live with (that doesn't give you any right to denigrate what someone else has to live with), it's affecting their lives in a way that it wasn't before.

RNAV is great for the airport, but with the airport being so close to where people live, they should be working with the community rather than stonewalling.

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You obviously don't understand what is the issue here. It's not that this issue existed when we bought our homes and we now want the flight paths changed. It is that the flight paths changed in the last couple of years and it is a real problem. Years ago the residents of JP/Roslindale forced the end of plans to build an interstate highway through our neighborhood and now the FAA has built an airplane interstate highway in the sky 1000 feet over our heads. And it is not every 3-4 minutes. Starting at 5:30 every morning they takeoff every 40-45 seconds. Is it really unreasonable that they fan them out or make them takeoff over the water until 7am? The damn airport is built on landfill from the harbor for a reason after all.

This is what representative democracy is about. We elected politicians who created the FAA who have made the choice to do this to us. Now we can vote out politicianc who do nothing about this and we can support the ones like Lynch who are trying to enact reasonable changes. Threatening their budget is the best way to enact changes in a uncontrollable government bureaucracy.

If Liz Warren really gave a shit about us she woult write a letter to the FAA. If she can treaten the SEC and Big Banks, why not Big Air?

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And it is not every 3-4 minutes. Starting at 5:30 every morning they takeoff every 40-45 seconds.

I live in Eastie and am confused by this statement. The planes don't take off every 40-45 seconds over the same path. That would be impossible for the air traffic control tower to take care of. And they can't be that close together in the air since they are taking off in different directions and they don't want planes to crash into each other in the air.

Maybe I'm missing something?

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The early morning period at the airport definitely does have planes taking off very frequently, although I timed them at 55-60 second intervals when I lived in Southie.

The planes I noticed during this period were taking off directly into the city, essentially following Washington St through Roslindale.

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There definitely are planes taking off 1 per minute in the early morning and following the same flight path over south end, roxbury, jp etc. It is constant noise some mornings.

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The planes aren't taking off every 30 to 45 seconds, but it's the noise from one plane coming in, and the other one in front of it continuing to make noise while leaving the air space. Both jets generate engine noise, and the interval of quiet non-occupied airspace can often be less than a minute during a busy rush our morning. Sometimes it's simply a hand-off from one jet to the next which means continuous noise.

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This is not about us not wanting to take our share of pain. We're all about share the pain approach. It's about having options. We had the same amount of noise fairly distributed between us before 2013. So there is a better systems for people, it's just using a bit more fuel. If you had a better option for your life, would you choose willingly the worst one? So the point is that the airline industry cares only for improving profits no matter the cost on human health.

We are 7+ miles away from the airport, not 1 mile or less so no we didn't move to towns in the very close proximity to Logan. This was bait and switch, among other things.

An RNAV path is when they fly with the GPS, over very narrow corridors and yes, they can take off as close as 43 seconds. Massport has a Noise Tracking software called Symphony PublicVue. On a day with NW winds log in and look at the airplane icons moving on the map, they take off from runway 33L, you can follow the time stamp (altitude, speed, etc.) and see how often they take off. Normally is every 2 min but we've had days when they went on for hours at a time at that interval - every 43 seconds. It's the noise and repetition that make it unbearable. It goes on for 4, or 6 or 8 hours at a time depending on the day, sometimes as late as 1:30 a.m. and then the next morning the first one wakes me up at 5:15 a.m. Logan has no curfew, it's 24/7 operation. They do allow only chapter 3 and 4 aircrafts to fly at night, those are quieter but there are still loud enough they rattle our home.

The Turkish Airline flight that is always using Airbus planes, A320 or A340 which are very loud, flies directly over our bedroom at 12:12 a.m., just a bit over midnight.

There are four RNAV paths from runway 33L, all of them go over west and north of Boston towns that had the noise equally distributed before June 2013. Now it's the same amount of noise concentrated over 20% of the population. Is that fair and square? Are we all sharing the pain? No. Can we all get the perfect fair skies we dream of? No. Some towns are geographically closer to Logan, some further away, the six runways at Logan are positioned so that airplanes can take off only in certain directions and they need to take off into the wind. It's not a simple pie you can share equally.

So the general anger towards the "rich" is misguided. We have diverse populations in these towns. No matter how you look at it, RNAV is discriminating against a 20% of the population. By applauding this change, one praises injustice, discrimination and approval for the airline industry's greed.

If I have the facts right, Brookline/Newton corridor it is so because they won a lawsuit a while ago.

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And it is not every 3-4 minutes. Starting at 5:30 every morning they takeoff every 40-45 seconds.

You really wanna argue with me on this? Like I said, it happen four times a week, all day long.. I know when those plans land and take off and I know how much time it is between flights. So just don't go there. You won't win.

(and I agree with the poster above.. it would be IMPOSSIBLE to be every 30-45 seconds)

PS - Lynch is a bully to get his way. That's far from democracy.

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Lynch's provision would have specifically cut the money from the FAA's "outreach" budget, because, as he said last night, its refusal to meet with Boston-area residents was pretty good evidence they weren't doing much in the way of outreach.

I'm not sure it's bullying when you're talking about a large federal agency (47,000 or so employees, $15+ billion budget) and a congressman looking out for his constituents. It's kind of sad the agency acted only under threat of a budget cut. Democracy? Lynch added he actually had Republicans who'd agreed to vote for his measure. Bipartisanship, at last.

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Lynch's provision would have specifically cut the money from the FAA's "outreach" budget, because, as he said last night, its refusal to meet with Boston-area residents was pretty good evidence they weren't doing much in the way of outreach.

You didn't say that initially.. this is the first time I've heard of this.

Okay.. I'll recant my opinion about that matter. that DOES make all the difference.

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To the original post. Guess that's what happens when you're writing a story at 11:45 p.m. :-).

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It had been mentioned in other press coverage leading up to this shindig. I think it was a very effective, smart and fair thing to do. They are receiving that money to interact with the public and Lynch was getting calls from his constituents that they were not getting answers or any response from MassPort/FAA. Totally reasonable.

That being said I still think Lynch is a dick.

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Okay fine.. but I'm not really following this story much except what adam posts on uhub and twitter so my argument is only as good as my sources. My source (adam) didn't post that item but once he did, my opinion has changed.

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This doesn't really sound like it will result in the desired outcome.

And Lynch doesn't have that kind of heft. Capuano maybe (BTW, Rep. Capuano, thanks for getting the additional funds for infrastructure - we sorely need and deserve them).

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It isn't every 30-45 seconds, but it's definitely more than every 3-4 minutes... I'd say they're on 90-second intervals over JP on Saturday/Sunday mornings. (Source: 2.5 year old toddler who is fascinated by airplanes and will stop whatever she is doing to remark on each one)

That said, I'm with you, cybah. We live in a city, which has a major airport in it, and you can't route both takeoff and landing away from a 120 degree arc that happens to contain homes. Folks showing up to insist that the planes be shuffled half a mile in another direction are your classic NIMBYs, and don't seem to want to acknowledge that what they're actually advocating is for traffic to be sent over some other, poorer and less politically connected neighborhood.

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Its the opposite. People want rich, connected places like Brookline and Newton to get their fair share of noise. Right now they get none.

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I don't think you understand the complaint. But before we get to that, let me just say that I also agree that we should expect these noises in a city blessed with an airport that's located just minutes from downtown. When I bought my house, I knew to expect urban noises, including planes. And I'm also not all that bothered by the noise -- most of the time I don't even notice it, despite living right under the path (per the twitter map). So I'm really not the fragile flower or whatever Cybah disparaged.

The nature of the complaint is not that there should be no planes routed through neighborhoods to the south of downtown. It's that the routings should not exclusively follow that path. And if you look at that map, it's pretty stark, with well over 90% basically flying directly above Washington St., only diverging in different directions near the Arboretum. Why can't there be six corridors instead of one? That's what people are asking. And as somebody not bothered by it, I nevertheless have quite a bit of sympathy for those who are*, when it's so clear that vast swaths of greater Boston have virtually no overhead flights.

* this represents a change, as I was initially quite skeptical. But I took the time to learn more about the issue, and I now agree that some alternative routings need to be considered.

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And if you look at that map, it's pretty stark, with well over 90% basically flying directly above Washington St., only diverging in different directions near the Arboretum.

I'd love to have a look, but what map? Got a link?

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Brookline is spared and Roslindale is screwed, because that's where the jets accelerate to the next altitude

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Yes, because we all know from experience that when we are waiting in line to takeoff form a runway they make each plane wait 4 minutes between takeoffs. Sure, that's how long they wait. Your own experience should prove you wrong here.

Check out the departure times on the Massport page itself if you don't believe me:

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Departure times are gate departure times. But yes they roughly approximate time between takeoffs, minus any traffic or other conditions that slow down take offs.

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All I know is that it's 3-4 minutes between each loud plane appears over my house. That is where I get number is from. That's all.

And I agree with KSquared.. when a plane leaves the gate is NOT the time the time it takes off or even a measurable time when it's using the run away. There's a lot of factors to determine that time.

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Sure, it is not exactly the same, but if the takeoff time didn't roughly coincide with the time leaving the gate where do all the planes go in between? Look at the number of flights. There would be a hundred planes waiting in the taxi line by 8 am.

We've all taken off from Logan in the morning or afternoon rush. Have you ever seen them wait 4 minutes to takeoff after the plane in front of you left?

Your experience is not the same as mine. It is 40-45 seconds from 5:30 until 7:00 when I leave my house for work in the morning. I actually have timed it because I didn't quite believe it myself but I heard 20 planes take off in 15 minutes when I did.

I would point out that we only have planes taking off over JP. I never see planes landing that way. It is a one way highway. And takeoff is much louder than landing because the plane is at full power as it climbs. I have lived there over 15 years. All this really began 2 or so years ago. This wasn't a gradual increase in traffic. It was a major change in flight path.

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Says here that they can handle 120 operations an hour. I assume it counts take offs and landings, but perhaps they can compress the takeoffs.

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That's one every 30 seconds. And there are not many arrivals between 5:30-7:00 am.

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Cybah, I generally agree with your posts, but the concern in this instance isn't as you described. The many communities represented were there because of recent changes that concentrate the flights into even narrower corridors than before. Milton has always had planes (and should since we benefit from being close to Logan), but they were previously part of a wider dispersal of flights south of Boston. The new system introduced in the past few years (which was the focus of last night's meeting) did something akin to concentrating multiple lanes of occasional flight traffic into a single constant stream of traffic. So yes, unlike in Chelsea, things in Milton and Medford and Somerville and Roslindale and Westie and all the other towns represented last night have changed for the worse in the past couple of years, and noticeably so.

I grew up in Winthrop and the runway was just across the harbor at the end of my street. I know noise (and crappy Massport soundproof windows) and the smell of diesel fuel and burnt rubber if the wind was blowing our way. My dad was also a baggage handler for 30 years so the airport was an important part of supporting our family and I hardly viewed it as an enemy force.

That said, there have been multiples meetings, and fights, between Massport and Eastie/Winthrop/southie over the years and residents succeeded in protecting their neighborhoods to an extent. Why aren't the rest of us allowed to complain when the airport impacts get more burdensome in our towns? All we are asking is to return to the wider dispersal of planes that existed before 2 years ago, and I agree with Vaughan that it would be nice if Brookline and Newton could share the pain too.

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I agree with you.

Now, I don't live at the same height of say Adam, but I do live really close to Jeanne DuBois (lovely woman and a great neighbor) and I can say that I can hear the airplanes, but there is a difference between hearing them and HEARING them. I was once on the phone with a guy in Winthrop who had to pause the conversation when I plane took off. That is not what Roslindale deals with. I hear trains and cars, too, but my quality of life is not affected by any of this.

Milton has dealt with airplanes for decades. This is not a new thing, except for the frequency.

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Before moving here to Roslindale (between South and Centre streets), we lived at the top of Franklin Park near Egelston Sq. We had airplanes going overhead in both locations. My wife is relatively sensitive to noise, and occasionally the airplanes will wake her up in the morning, but not all the time. We were discussing this issue the other afternoon on the weekend, and I made the comment that I never really notice the airplanes going over. A few seconds later, she pointed out one going overhead. Only when it was pointed out did I recognize it for something other than general city noise.

The planes were louder by Franklin Park in JP. I have also lived in Winthrop. The planes over JP and Roslindale are NOWHERE near as loud as they are if you are living in Winthrop. Cities have noise. Wanting to shift that noise to someone else just because you have noise and they don't looks petty. Saying "Brookline deserves more noise" sounds ridiculous. No one deserves noise, but if you live in a city, sometimes you get it.

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Cybah, you seem like a really nice guy.

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Residents asked why Logan couldn't have a curfew.

Jesus, talk about provincialism.

Transportation noise is unfortunately part of the tradeoff of living in the city. The FAA should spring for noise mitigation if they're insisting on such narrow paths, but it's also something people have to accept. Next thing you know everyone with the train running through their backyard is going to ask the T to stop running at 9pm so they can go to sleep.

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I agree this is kinda what I was getting at with my last comment.

People don't like it.. move. You live in a major city with a major airport. You want more flights to more destinations without delays.... you're going to have to give a little.

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As my wife said, way more eloquently than I ever could:

No one who moved to Roslindale prior to the massive change in approach routes could have anticipated / had any expectation of the extraordinary noise levels that result when the corridor is overwhelmed by aircraft. Trains? Yep. Traffic? Yep. Ambulances? Sure -- there's a hospital a little ways from us. Police? Sure, they're nearby, too. Construction? Sure -- people are building and renovating. Leaf blowers? Endless this time of year. Dogs bark, birds yell at each other, cats have fights in the dark... all frequent and unproblematic. Even a plane now and then... no worries.

The difference is that a) not one of those noise sources has ever woken me out of a sound sleep at 5 am, thinking someone had just parked an idling truck in my kitchen, and b) this is something that was done without any sort of consideration for noise pollution and quality of life for people under the new "efficient" traffic path.

And if there's one form of transportation that those of us in Roslindale want more of, it's the commuter rail. The Needham line runs barely more than part time right now, and we'd love to see it run through the night and on weekends.

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My problem with those arguments is that things change. Claiming that well, the noise wasn't here when I moved, so it shouldn't ever exist, especially in a city that's growing by leaps and bounds, is silly. What if Partners expanded the Faulkner and they start getting more ambulances? What if they actually did the OLX and the once hourly commuter train started running every ten minutes? Would people have the right to shut these down because now the noise is increased? I mean, here on uhub, every time Adam reports on a neighborhood meeting where long-time residents complain about OMG TRAFFIC when a new housing project is proposed, they're roundly mocked. But when they moved to Roslindale 30 years ago, they couldn't reasonably have expected the batshit increase in Boston prices driving density down this far, could they?

I sympathize about the LEVEL of loudness, and agree with people that Brookline and Newton and the rich and connected need to carry their fair share. And like I said the FAA should probably contribute noise remediation funds so people can put in triple paned windows and greenglued walls etc. But suggestions to not have flights after a certain time of night, not allow 5 am flights, remove funding from the FAA (remember five years ago when almost every flight was delayed by hours?) aren't helpful and show little understanding of the sacrifices citydwellers should reasonably expect to make.

The good news is jets are improved all the time and in 20 years we'll probably be looking at a very different fleet of machines, so hopefully this is a problem that will eventually go away.

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We have every right to petition government and find a compromise.

Three US Congressmen agree that a new result is needed. Three Boston City Councilors took the time to attend. I'd say we have already convinced 6 elected officials we have a good case for making changes to how and when flights are routed over our neighborhoods.

I'm glad Cybah doesn't give a shit about the noise. If he did I'd listen and learn and support his petition.

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Cities generate more trash than a rural area. Why bother with paying for services needed to pick and dispose of trash since a cost of city living is more trash being generated from both homes and from litter. A cost of city living is more murders, thefts, vehicular homocides and other violence in cities than in rural areas. Anyone living in a city should just accept that and hope they are not hurt instead of having to pay for a police and judicial system for preventing or prosecuting and jailing criminals.

Another way of saying this: "You moved into a city; cities are noisy; suck it up." The same then can be, "It's a city; people are murdered in cities; suck it up."

Do we allow freight ships to dump the crew's feces into the harbor? Freight ships provided vital services. They need crews. Crewe are humans and generate body wastes. Do we just say polluting the just the cost of having more freights ships coming in.

The Charles was polluted for seveal years and slowly is becoming cleaner. But cities generate pollution. Perhaps we should just accept that cities pollute their waterways instead of spending millions on clean up.

What about the added costs to cars for decreasing how much pollutionn they create? Internal combustion engines create smog and CO. That's the cost of running a car. Why spend so much money on making cars less polluting?

When jets are flying over the same corridor in less than minute intervals (I've timed them from where I live), creating noise that sounds like missles flying through the air, then the jets are generating noise pollution that impacts residents' and citizens' lives in different but no less destructive ways.

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Sydney Australia, an actual world class city, has a curfew at their airport between 11pm to 6am.

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It must be terrible to hear all that plane noise. There are plenty of houses for sale in suburban Worcester, where there is no plane noise. It's only 40 miles away - the people should look in to that option.

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Doesn't Worcester have a once-a-week non-stop to Trenton or something like that?

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JetBlue flies non-stop to Orlando and Fort Lauderdale from Worcester.

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that they (the FAA) agreed to attend only after US Rep. Stephen Lynch threatened to cut the agency's budget by $25 million.

Time for a recall election for Lynch for this blatant abuse of power. Oh, but it's to satisfy the snobbish people who can't accept the fact that planes make noise and that fight paths are determined for navigation reasons. Goofd reason to threaten to cut funding - not>

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A lot of the comments here sound like a bunch of jealous whiners who don't think that it's possible for people who live in affluent communities to have valid concerns about air traffic.

I live in Quincy and am dealing with this too. Am I allowed to have an opinion on this because the median income is lower than Milton's?

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I dont worry about jets but usually have a helicopter or two flying over anytime between 7 and 10 at night. Granted I live near the pike and not in the "really really rich part of Newton"

Noise and public health is a major issue, however in the US it is not really taken seriously like it is in Europe. The Dutch have nose abatement down such that you could be traveling under the equivalent of the masspike and still hear birds chirping. A combination of pavement tech and noise absorption.

Its harder with planes but there ought to be some way to reduce the engine noise or some combination of rotating flight paths...

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Compared to many European countries the US is a very LOUD country. Why we are so obsessed with loud chopped motorcycle pipes, loud car/truck mufflers, blasting junk music is a mystery. Maybe has something to do with our macho militaristic attitude toward life?

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There is a real-time tracking tool that is specifically designed to address noise complaints.

Can be used to track time between takeoffs and which areas flights go over in realtime.

And to file complaints, although perhaps the complaints just go to the bit bucket.

https://secure.symphonycdm.com/publicvue/AirSceneFrames.asp?NoMenu=True&...

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PLEASE - PLEASE file your complaint. The data is a critical part of the noise abatement efforts. Unfortunately, Roslindale does not complain much. The complaints out of other towns - such as Milton - are getting the attention of Massport and the FAA 9plus Lynch).

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Good coverage Adam. Speaking as someone living under the flight path in Eastie and having grown up in a North Shore town that was in the flight path (albeit at a greater altitude) I have to say the noise doesn't bother me much. I had MassPort windows installed (good deal) and really don't notice it much. But I was recently door knocking in Chelsea down by the Tobin - Beacon Street etc. and jeeezischrist THAT is fuckin loud! Between the roar of traffic and the planes I would lose my mind (don't know how soundproofed the houses are).

Can understand the point being made by those who are now being affected by the more targeted n'hoods with the new navigation system and the desire to see the burden spread out a bit more fairly, but still the closer you get to Logan the less possible that is for those of us closer to the airport. There is no way to distribute that pain, unless you start thinking regionally.

They are expanding the international terminal because after years of pimping out Boston throughout Asia we now have more large international flights coming here. We are a WORLD CLASS CITY™. How many world class cities have their international airports closer to down town than many of their own residents? And how many people using the airport are driving to and from regional destinations after arrival? We should be thinking of improving our regional capacity -- Hanscom, Worcester (within MassPort's purview) and T.F. Green (Providence) and Manchester (NH). That would actually be distributing the burdens of this needed infrastructure more equally among the recipients of the benefits rather than just spacing out flight paths to an increasingly overloaded and squished Logan.

And of course all of this is just about the noise. Anyone want to talk about fine particulate matter?
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es5001566

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I don't care about the noise, I have lived around the world and I have had it worse. I also understand that a vibrant airport is absolutely necessary, and that in a global world, departing and arriving times are sometimes strange (5am?!).

The only thing I want to know is the reason why, in the flight route map, there is a highway through JP/Roslindale, that, at least for flights that go West/North-West, seems to have the only purpose to avoid Brookline. Is there a reason for that?

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When not listening, FAA officials mostly told residents why their requests could not be fulfilled. One Hull resident asked when departing planes can't simply be moved a mile further out over water; FAA officials said that would get them too close to planes arriving via another runway.

I wish I'd been there to hear the context for that. As a standalone statement, it doesn't seem to make much sense.

Departures passing over Hull would probably be departures from runway 15, correct? "Sending the further out over water" sounds to me like that would be turning (at some point after takeoff but before Hull) from the runway bearing of south-southeast (150 degrees) to something more like east-southeast (120 degrees). That makes sense, as far as that goes.

What runway would be used for arrivals when 15 is being used for departures? Different arrival runways would have different area approach patterns, but I'm having trouble figuring out which runway would mean some sort of conflict with traffic departing from 15.

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This is the first time I visited this website. I am shocked at the comments' poor quality and lack of basic knowledge about the subject. Also at the hatred towards the "rich". The majority of people on this forum do not understand the issues but offer unfounded opinions.

Yet, when I tried posting a comment that had information about the issues, also a reference to Massport's software showing planes do fly every 43 seconds over us, I found out you are actually moderating those messages. Do you really? Do you think that 60% of what you are posting here should be approved messages or do you get higher ratings if you have a high number of posts so then you go ahead and post everything, no matter the language, tone etc.?

I am just curious. It doesn't matter much because I will not return to this site. It's unfortunate since the article is quite well written.

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I was going to explain in great detail how I moderate anonymous comments, and even answer your specific questions, but then you go and say you're never coming back, so there's no point in me wasting my time writing into the void.

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Us registered users who commented on this can see that something new was posted and are dying to read your answer.

I guess there is an upside to registering on this website.

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I think you are all missing the boat. There was a suit filed in Milton and we lost!! The reason we lost is that the judge made it clear that the FAA was folowing all the laws,rules, and regulations as required.

Who maes those laws? Congress. So you can get all upset with the FAA if you want and applaud Congressman Lynch, but it is he and his ronies who make the laws. Check out and see who donates to these Congressman. The Airlines??? The Airline Unions???

If you want things to change, get Congressman who are willing to change laws. Don't blame the public servants who make those laws.

Congressman Lynch was way out of line and should not be applauded for his actions. He is part of the problem, and don't let him tell you otherwise.

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Greetings all,

I hadn't seen this until now. I am so happy to hear that Boston is fighting back. The airlines are not happy about how NextGen is being implemented, and every bit of pressure helps...

In Phoenix and northeast Queens, the NextGen routes are not a direct overlay of the former SID routes. Instead, the RNAV "cuts" through a large and highly populated area that had previously not been under a flight track. Previous flight tracks had utilized waterways, parks and industrial areas.

I am not sure if the same situation exists in Milton/Boston. I would guess that it does. I'm going to guess that flight tracks have been shortened, truncated and altered in addition to being concentrated.

When these new, refined routes were exempted from environmental review under the condition that they be less noisy than a previous route on a "per flight basis", they were supposed to be exact overlays of the previous route, and not, in effect, a completely new route. That was the nature of the 2012 CATEX.

I just wanted to mention this since the FAA is claiming that they can't do anything. At every meeting, they say they can't move anything around. I guess they have their marching orders. They get through meetings by harping on minor details and the meeting devolves into technical minutiae.

Sure they can change things. They can still use RNAV's over the previous routes and still concentrate the track. They can do this without changing the track of the route itself, which is the primary problem in many areas. But that's the part that they don't want to do. They are condensing the airspace and utilizing all available airspace.

With the CATEX they now have a tool to fill every open patch of air with a plane. They can replace Noise Abatement Departure Procedures (NADP's) with new procedures that cut directly over an area which never had a route before. On Long Island, NY, they have arrivals coming in to JFK's runway 22L at 2000 feet, with departures from 31L layered above the arrivals!

I hope Massachusetts stays in the fight. Good Luck.

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Greetings all,

I hadn't seen this until now. I am so happy to hear that Boston is
fighting back. The airlines are not happy about how NextGen is being
implemented, and every bit of pressure helps...

In Phoenix and northeast Queens, the NextGen routes are not a direct
overlay of the former SID routes. Instead, the RNAV "cuts" through a
large and highly populated area that had previously not been under a
flight track. The former flight tracks had utilized waterways, parks and
industrial areas.

I am not sure if the same situation exists in Milton/Boston. I would
guess that it does. I'm going to guess that flight tracks have been
shortened, truncated and altered in addition to being concentrated.

When these new, refined routes were exempted from environmental review
under the condition that they be less noisy than a previous route on a
"per flight basis", they were supposed to be exact overlays of the
previous route, and not, in effect, a completely new route. That was
the nature of the 2012 CATEX.

I just wanted to mention this since the FAA is claiming that they
can't do anything. At every meeting, they say they can't move anything
around. I guess they have their marching orders. They get through
meetings by harping on minor details and the meeting devolves into
technical minutiae.

Sure they can change things. They can still use RNAV's over the
previous routes and still concentrate the track. They can do this
without changing the track of the route itself, which is the primary
problem in many areas. But that's the part that they don't want to do.
They are condensing the airspace and utilizing all available airspace.

With the CATEX they now have a tool to fill every open patch of air
with a plane. They can replace Noise Abatement Departure Procedures
(NADP's) with new procedures that cut directly over an area which
never had a route before. On Long Island, NY, they have arrivals
coming in to JFK's runway 22L at 2000 feet, with departures from 31L
layered above the arrivals!

I hope Massachusetts stays in the fight. Good Luck. And you have every
right to complain about a flight route being implemented over you,
when previously there wasn't one. The hatemongers who glom on to this
topic and tell you to "get over it" or " move out" likely don't live
in 65 DNL as you now do. Absolutely nothing compares to 65 DNL. Not
fire trucks, not construction, not military bases. Nothing.

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