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MBTA rebuffs turning part of Arborway bus yard into a commuter parking lot
By adamg on Thu, 12/01/2016 - 9:36am
UPDATE: Post corrected to show the T turned down the idea.
Jamaica Plain News reports on a neighborhood meeting on a developer's plans to turn the 300-car Laz parking lot across from Forest Hills into a 252-unit apartment complex.
According to the News, the developer said it's not really his issue what happens to the people who park there now, but that he met with the T, which turned down his possible suggestion of using space at the "temporary" bus yard for car parking.
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Comments
I don't care about people who
I don't care about people who are driving in from the suburbs, clogging the streets, and parking, but this is 400-600 new commuters every day boarding into Forest Hills. The station is really starting to hit capacity... I know new Orange Line trains are coming, but it's still a hugely busy station, aggravated by lack of transit in the Boston neighborhoods south of there. Add in growth and infill projects in Rozzie / Westie / Hyde Park and the MBTA is seriously going to need to start thinking of creative solutions. An OLX replacing the Needham line would be ideal, but even removing parking along Washington to build dedicated bus lines would help..... of course, nothing will be done until the neighborhoods start pushing for studies and planning, so this is years off either way....
What's an OLX?
Inquiring minds...
Orange Line eXtension.
Orange Line eXtension.
OLX = Orange Line Extension
OLX = Orange Line Extension
Sounds nice, but...
The Needham Line is single-tracked from Forest Hills to Needham Heights with very few sidings where one train can step aside for one bound in the other direction, so there is a limit to the number of trains you can run per hour. I'm guessing that the capacity of a mostly double-decker commuter rail unit is at least double that of a subway unit or DMU. Under the new schedule that just went into effect the 8:02am out of the Heights is standing room only from LaGrange St / W.Roxbury on in.
The idea of converting the line to something that didn't go all the way in to South Station has some appeal. Limitations on the number of operations in and out of the SS interlocking really constrains the schedules. It'd be worth having to change at Forest Hills if they could run more frequent trains to Needham, but you'd need more sidings and a carefully scripted dance between inbound and outbound.
Make more sidings
Surely there is room to make extra sidings in several locations between FH and NH. That can't be the biggest obstacle.
Maybe
I can think of three sidings: just inbound of Needham Junction (used many times a day); at the VFW Parkway (never seen it used); and just inbound of Roslindale Village (occasionally used). Adding more would likely involve much wailing and rending of clothes as the right-of-way is tight up to residential and commercial properties.
If you ran Orange Line cars, that means a third rail. Depending on which side of the track it was, you'd have to move some of the existing platforms to the other side of the track. All platforms would have to be raised (not a bad thing, but non-trivial). I'd favor DMU's, but they don't seem to be in the T's playbook. (I'm old enough to remember BudLiners chugging all over New England to good effect.)
Did the Needham Line ever
Did the Needham Line ever have two tracks?
Yes
Well, at least out to West Roxbury. The entirety of the railroad to West Roxbury was once had at least two tracks (and maybe three, judging by the bridge abutment widths, so two tracks would be easy to install. It's also fully grade-separated, and the trickiest bit (getting through Forest Hills). Past the old spur to the Dedham Loop I think it has always been single-tracked (but it might have been doubled) out to Needham Heights.
However, if you ever did extend the Orange Line, you could probably get away with a single track past West Roxbury. Full double track to there serving existing stations (Rozzie, Bellevue, Highland, Westie) and probably a new station at the VFW Pkwy especially since it is within easy walking distance of the VA (and West Roxbury High, etc). Probably room for a Park and Ride there, too. From there, you have room for two tracks out to the river, and there's plenty of space for a yard/layover facility out by Millenium Park (you could take a swath of land out behind the industrial buildings there). Maybe some opportunities for TOD down there, too: live by the park/river, easy commute downtown.
From there, some trains could run on to Needham. If the Orange Line can run 4 minute headways when the new trains come in in a few years, you don't need a train to Needham every 4 minutes. 12 would probably suffice. So 2/3 of the trains terminate at West Roxbury, with a turnback facility and yard south of Millenium Park. You could have a single platform station there adjacent to Millenium Park and the high school if you wanted, and then have signle track across the river and embankment. These bridges were all originally built for two tracks, with the exception of the 128 bridge, which was built after the line had been singled, so double to Needham Junction would be possible, but would require a new bridge over 128. You could get away with a single track across the highway (and perhaps even further, at least to start) with 12 minute rush hour headways.
Minor issue of a grade crossing in the golf course (could be tunneled, or closed) to get to Needham Junction. From there, there are way too many grade crossings up to Needham Highlands for third rail service, but that makes more sense as a Green Line branch from Newton Highlands anyway. There's ample room for layover service for both lines southwest of Needham Junction in the rail/power line ROW which is 125' wide. You could, of course, abandon service west of Westie and run the Green Line to Needham Junction, but that's a long Green Line ride, and longer if you then try to get to Hersey, too. Considering the cost to run a single track along the Orange Line there would be relatively low (especially since it parallels high voltage lines so getting 600v traction power down wouldn't be a huge issue since you have plenty adjacent) it probably makes sense, if you have the dollars.
On the north end, a similar extension (two tracks) to Wyoming makes a ton of sense. Beyond there is grade crossing city, but at least rather than ending in Oak Grove between two parks, you end in the relatively-dense (10k/sqmi part of Melrose).
400-600 new commuters? Hogwash
252 units won't generate 600 new commuters. Not even close.
And, don't forget that the delta between the 300 spaces in the LAZ lot and whatever new spaces are created represents a reduction in riders...
MBTA should build a garage
MBTA should build a garage with ground level retail. Use the lease for the retail to pay for the upkeep of the garage.
The MBTA should be focused on
The MBTA should be focused on improving public transit, not using valuable real estate for people from the suburbs to park. Any land next to a T station should be for housing. People are more important than cars and we have a housing shortage.
parking and access
I am not from the suburbs and I use that parking lot or the one across the street. The majority of people I have met over the last 7 years parking there are from city. Most are like me that don’t like the haphazard bus availability, the schedule is a joke, or don’t live within close walking to the bus. The commuter rail is a no go. Limited schedule and $200 zone 1. As someone who used to ride the commuter rail the price has driven many people off of it. Add in the $4 a day to park and if you live in WR or Roslindale or HP the parking at Forest Hills is a good option. And if the T wants to provide access it should have parking at all the end of the line stations it makes it more accessible as well. . Conversion of part of the T yard to parking would also service the Courthouse sounds like a smart idea, probably why it wont happen.
You're missing something here
We would both agree that the MBTA should be encouraging ridership (along with providing reliable service, which is a given), but there is a logic to having parking at train stations. It encourages "people from the suburbs" to take the T rather than driving the whole way in to the city.
Imagine if there were no parking garages at Quincy Adams or Braintree stations. The Expressway would be even more of a mess than it is now. No parking at Forest Hills could mean people driving through JP to get in town, which I assume would annoy you to no end.
It's called intermodality. Take one form of transportation (bus, bike, walk, or even drive) to the station, then take the train from there. Surely you can see the logic of this.
Gondolas
Yes and that is why I am running for State Rep on the concept of gondolas above major streets.
Washington St from Forrest Hills to Rt 1? Imagine riding serenely above the street in your comfortable gondola, free of traffic concerns.
New development on Walk Hill? No problem - gondola service will move the new residents quietly through the Forrest Hills neighborhood to the T.
It works in Bogata. Even hip Brooklyn in NYC has gondola service to Manhattan. Why not here? Aren't we a world class city?
Where is the power going to come from? I'm glad you asked. We're going to build a big wall to protect against sea level rise out in the harbor and will have tide powered turbines which will run the gondolas.
You're welcome.
They should use the parking
They should use the parking revenue (after accounting for garage maintenance) to pay for transit service.
I'd be fine with this as long
I'd be fine with this as long as it's not just a surface parking lot.
What would be ideal is to mimic the rest of the world and build a mixed-use building that has a street-level bus garage, with commuter parking on top of that, and street-facing retail/office/residential space hiding it. This exact model is done all the time in other parts of the world, and gives you the best of all three worlds - keeping a bus garage, adding commuter parking, and developing the site with an active street front.
[Extending the Orange Line out to Needham is of course a better option, but that's not gonna happen, so *shrug*]
A couple of things here:
A) First of all, if the Red Line was extended out to Davis Square in Somerville, and out to Braintree, why couldn't/shouldn't the Orange Line be extended out to Needham/Dedham? That might be a better way to go.
B) Secondly, parking garages, especially if they're not well guarded, can become dangerous traps after nightfall, when the lower 2 floors are all full up, and people have no choice but to go onto the upper floors to park. Even if there's a security guard at the front of the garage, nobody can really hear, let alone see what activities are occurring on the upper floors of garages and other parking structures, especially late at night. The farther up one has to drive up to find a parking space in a public garage, the less secure it is, for anybody, at night.
At least, if one is parked in the street, and a threatening situation develops while someone is walking towards his/her car at night, there's always the possibility of running to higher ground, or walking in the middle of the street away from the buildings and/or the curb, thus reducing the possibility of a physical attack or whatever. On the upper floors of a public parking garage, or, to a degree, even an ordinary public parking lot, there's a considerably greater chance of being trapped, because there's far less chance of avoiding such a horrific event. Plenty of muggings and assaults go on in public garages and parking lots. Don't kid yourselves.
C) Ordinary parking lots aren't as bad in that respect, but one should still be especially careful.
Or instead of extending the
Or instead of extending the subway, make the commuter rail not be an expensive inefficient infrequent unreliable piece of garbage.
A) Yes, I know the Orange
A) Yes, I know the Orange line SHOULD be extended. I support that idea 100%. However, as I all-but-explicitly said in my post, the reality is that that won't happen, at least not for long enough that we shouldn't ignore short-term improvements using it as an excuse.
B-C) So we should never build parking garages anywhere because they're "dangerous"? I really don't understand what you're trying to argue here.
Not quite what the developer said
Perhaps just a quibble, but I was at this meeting (front row, even) and what I undertood the developer to say was that HE had suggested to the MBTA the possibility of creating parking for commuters in the bus yard. More like a question than a proposal. He stated that it was his understanding that the "MBTA took it to the community for input, but it didn't go well". No one in the room (80-90 people) had heard of any meeting where the MBTA had brought up the "proposal" (no matter whose it was) to the community. Liz Malia's rep asked for more detail from the developer and there wasn't much to be had.
I'm no wiz on it, but... there is quite a lot of community investment in existing negotiated plans for the bus yard, compiled over decades in a very complicated process. All of that remains, for now, unfunded and the "temporary bus yard" remains on 12+ acres of prime real estate. But there may well be a sense in the community that creating a parking lot there would jeopardize most future desirable outcomes - whether you want 15 story apartment blocks or something scaled more like the surrounding neighborhood.
This is the correct reporting
I was at the meeting too, and 500Monkeys is accurately reporting what the developer said: the MBTA says this is NOT going to happen. Apparently it was floated as an idea but shot down.
Thanks to you both
I've corrected the original post.