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Right
Mom's just trying to protect her kids the best she can. She thinks the lead in her house is better off under three layers of paint than floating around in the air or coating the floor as dust. I can't blame her for not wanting to fork over 100K for something that might make matters worse.
Most kids in Boston grow up in houses with lead paint. I did, and so did most of you. And most kids never get lead poisoning, because they don't eat paint chips and the lead stays mostly where it is unless disturbed.
Maybe the state should be asking parents if they have cheap Chinese crap around the house and try to mitigate that first.
wrong
Sorry, I have no sympathy for this couple in a 5000 sq foot home in Wellesley.
I personally know of a couple who had a child with elevated lead levels and did what was necessary in the house, despite the cost, for the good of the child. Who are they (in the article) to think they know the most about lead and lead poisoning?
Whether or not they were "sure" the poisoning came from another source, they had to know the law about lead paint when they bought this house, and they can't be "sure" that lead paint in the house won't also contribute.
I've personally gone through deleading where I live, and if it is addressed from the outset (before there is a lead level problem), it isn't that big a deal. Only the portions peeling and/or in easy reach for mouthing need be removed. The certificate of lead compliance is also a service to anyone else who might move in with young children in the future.
I'm wondering
If you even read the article.
If you had, you'd know that the girl tested positive for lead before they moved into the current house.
There's no evidence whatsoever that the children have acquired lead from the current house.
Wrong
Gareth, what do you know about lead abatement? What do you know about lead paint exposure and childhood health? I'm asking because your comments indicate that you may not fully understand the situation.
First, it ain't about "eating lead chips". It is about BREATHING the dust. This is the major route of exposure, unless you are a landlord making excuses and blowing misinformation around.
The state isn't demanding that the parents to sand stuff and otherwise renovate. They are asking the parents to get the lead properly removed by a licensed contractor in lead abatement. These guys leave so little dust behind that, if you have three cats, people with cat allergies will be able to stay in your house afterward. That is called proper removal of hazardous waste, not creating more problem.
This sort of situation has been going on for about 20 years now. Why? Because lead abatement works! I know many folks who have had their properties PROPERLY and LEGALLY deleaded and seen immediate and obvious drops in their child's blood lead levels. That isn't Chinese toys, that is effective intervention!
My landlord had to do this when I was pregnant with #2. He did some construction upstairs that resulted in my blood lead going up to inappropriate levels. I had been scrambling to keep the dust wiped up for the sake of my 1.5 year old, exposing my pregger self to it in the process.
We had to move out for 2 weeks while a hazmat trained group removed the stuff. After that, all was safe. Problem solved.
These parents are playing the pity me game and trying every trick in the book to deny the problem and naysay the solution. The problem is that the state has decades of data to back up their determination that the exposure can be removed and SHOULD be removed. The parents are simply wrong about what is more safe - or they are choosing their pocketbook over their child's neurological development (based on well documented effects of lead drawn from decades of data!)
As for "we all grew up in blah blah", well, actually, there is good data that much of the Boston area lost IQ points to lead paint and to leaded gasoline. Google "chelsea" and "lead" to read all the foundation studies.
Bringin the personal
Swirly, it sounds like you're bringing the personal in here a bit more than you're bringing the logical.
The article states that the girl tested high for lead before she moved into the current house. Are you suggesting the lead got out of their house and got in a time machine to go make her sick months before she moved in there? Or did you just not read the article?
I'm glad that your landlord did the right thing by you and by the law. That's super. But that's got very little to do with this couple in Wellesley. There's no evidence lead paint in their current house has anything to do with the child's preexisting condition. And according to the EPA, "Lead-based paint that is in good condition is usually not a hazard."
As for eating paint chips... I see an assertion that you know everything about lead (kinda like you know everything about everything else), but no figures or links. Here's a link a few doors down: Kid ate paint chips, got sick..
Do you have more than a personal anecdote and some unsupported generalizations?
Logical is opposite of illogical, not passionate
I have a nice degree on my wall that says that I know at least a little bit about public health and statistics ...
I think that you are being illogical, or that you are performing logic on very poor information as you are neglecting decades of public health experience with lead poisoning and lead abatement.
Kids do eat paint chips, but that is not the PREDOMINANT route of poisoning by lead. I believe that I said as much up above. I never said that kids don't eat paint - I said that it IS NOT THE PREDOMINANT ROUTE OF EXPOSURE, which is known to be inhalation followed by cilliary action removing particulate from the airway to the digestive system.
As for the Wellesley couple, they are full of it. Renovations can generate lead dust, true, but PROPER LICENSED lead removal removes the hazard. It is a classist myth that it is all about "eating paint" or being dirty or all of that. Unless their upperclass offspring don't breathe, I ain't buying the "blame the sloppy parents" bull.
Stats
Sure, and I bill Uncle Sam as a senior statistician. But neither your nor my creds have anything to do with the fact that this girl did not get lead poisoning from her current house. She got it before she moved there. There is no connection between her tested lead poisoning and whatever is on the walls of her house.
Whether kids get exposure from playing in dust or eating chips like the kid down the street from me did, the exposure comes from poorly-maintained lead paint. Lead paint that's on your walls under several coats of other paint and is not flaking or chipping or producing dust is, according to the EPA, usually not a hazard. Maybe you should go tell them that's a "classist myth."
What proof of that?
The parents claim it was preexisting, but I don't see a timeline in the Globe article. It could be the reporter not being specific about the timing of the lead test versus moving or the parents' claims being vague and unverified.
As for the EPA, let's just say that they have very little credibility among health and exposure scientists and few people consider them an objective resource, particularly where some liability might result. Ask Dr. Cate Jenkins or check out The Union of Concerned Scientists Web Site. Steven Johnson has made sure that the chemical industry has very little to worry about under his watch.
Check out the intervention link below for information on how effective lead abatement is in Massachusetts. Simple demonstrated facts: lead is bad for kids, deleading reduces their blood levels of lead.
It'd be this part
"In fact, Catie's elevated lead levels - which can cause long-term neurological problems - began at least two months before the Ellises bought the home last April."
"Catie was found to have elevated lead levels in her blood in February 2007."
Let's see... doing the math here... February 2007 before April 2007. Check. Simple demonstrated fact?
Right
This sounds nuts. The purpose of the lead paint law was to prevent landlords from leaving peeling, chipped lead paint in appartnments where tenants would be powerless to remove it, not to tell homeowners what they can and can't have in their house.
testy testy
wow! this seems like a very testy group today
I say wrong. I do see both sides but I say wrong, they need to follow rules like everybody else. everyone has a story and the fact this chick has never gotten a speeding ticket is a moot point. Good thing she always follows the law!
Ticket that!
$100,000 for De-Leading?
My house was fully de-leaded a few years ago for a price closer to $16,000 -- which included replacing nearly all the windows (including frames) in the house. As part of that, the workers doing the de-leading have to clean the dust out of the house so effectively that it passes a follow-up test.
While I'm sure the Wellesley couple's house is significantly larger than mine, I can't imagine that they have actually gotten a reasonable price estimate for de-leading. $100,000 sounds like a number made up out of thin air. Either that, or their house is worth six times the value of my house -- which means that they can certainly afford the cost of de-leading it.
On top of that, their child's lead poisoning level was extremely high. The Globe article noted that the child's blood had a lead level exceeding the 25 ug/dl that triggers state inspection of the house. The Globe skipped over the fact that, I believe, a much lower value (10 ug/dl) is the threshold at which doctors must report the poisoning to the health authorities (and thus trigger a health investigation). With such a high level tested for their child (37 ug/dl) the parents ought to be so worried for the developmental / mental health of their child that they remove absolutely every possible contributor to the poisoning -- or else risk harming her health much more through extended exposure to lead poisoning.
Experts on lead poisoning say that most of it usually enters children through lead paint, while much lower amounts come through drinking water or other sources. But even if the child's case was unusual in that the primary source was jewelry, there is a apparently a significant additional contributor coming from the lead paint (according to the state's investigation of the house). Save the child's future by fixing the house.
wrong
Public health codes exist for a reason and are based upon decades of research and analysis performed by trained scientists, epidemiologists, and physicians. Just because you're rich and think you know a lot doesn't mean that they don't apply to you.
It definitely strikes me as odd that the child tested so high for lead, but I would think they'd want to remove any potential contributing sources, as soon as possible.
Eileen Nails It
Maybe they want learning-disabled kids out of some warped belief that they will get into Harvard more easily that way (/snark).
Was in the same situation...
Why right or wrong? Its a tough spot to be in, I've been there myself. Not long after moving into our condo is Rosi one of my twins tested just over the line, the other was fine. The state had a woman on my doorstep before I even had a chance to hear it from our pediatrician. The state's position was that our home must be inspected but heres the catch they wont tell you about unless you beat it out of them. If you let the state inspector in you have are required by law to preform the abatement they recommend, we're talking taking out door frames, walls, the soil around your house - whatever it takes to remove the lead. If you opt to use a private state licensed inspector he is required to file his findings but you may pursue the course you choose to fix the problem. If your child continues to test at high levels over the next 6 months the state will inspect your house and make you do it their way.
We decided to go the private route and so for about $300 a man who used to work for the state came out and did the same test the state does. Its actually an interesting test, with a neato radar gun and a detailed report on every surface in your home, it takes about 3 hours. He found the only interior source of potentially hazardous lead to be the family room where a previous owner had stripped paint off the wood trim and left traces. The main lead culprit was the windows where lead dust is generated by moving the window up and down. The lead was particularly heavy there because it was once a common practice to change screens and storms annually with a fresh coat of white paint.
Based on the combined advice of the lead inspector and our pediatrician we opted to have all of our windows replaced and capped (exterior trim). We also coated all of our living room trim in 3 coats of poly, and gave the entire house a wash down with TSP detergent. We redoubled our efforts at hand washing and gave our daughter iron drops as our pediatrician recommended. I'm very happy to report that in the follow up tests my daughter's lead levels dropped dramatically and have remained low. Nearly every home in MA has some lead, what I think made the difference was that our daughter drools and puts her fingers in her mouth more than most tots.
Not to fuel a fight but the inspector did tell me that the lead program needs to bag a certain quota of cases per year to keep their funding and they will go pit-bull on people even where theres room for a more middle of the road solution.
Amusing
So the experts have successfully driven these parents to high levels of lead paint paranoia, and the same experts - and posters here - are surprised at their reaction? They're just followed enviro-nuttiness to its logical conclusion. Now you blame them for wanting to err on the safe side?
Tens of millions - virtually all - of Americans have lived in houses with lead paint. All the scientists, all the engineers, the novelists and the teachers. Presidents, judges, musicians, you name it, they lived it. If you think there is a scintilla of evidence that they were harmed by lead paint, you're dreaming. Lead paint can be harmful, in special cases. In a well-cared for house in Wellesley, it's a paranoid dream.
One paper versus Body of Evidence
The parents are basing their concerns on a single piece of research. It was and is an excellent piece of research, but the parents are selectively ignoring the conclusion that problems arise in deleading largely due to deleading not being done properly (fly by night operations, lack of check-out testing, etc.) and that the risk of abatement is much smaller than the risk of continued exposure.
Lead doesn't care how much money you have. Poor kids with poor nutritional status are less resistant to the effects of lead and more likely to engage in pica (eating non-food items), but even well cared for homes have windows that shed paint dust and floors that may be worn by simply walking on them.
I don't have full access to this journal, but click here for the abstract of a Massachusetts study of blood lead levels dropping as a result of Lead Hazard Removal.
Right
Everyone involved in regulating and manufacturing paint knew that lead was a problem for decades before it was banned in house-paint. They got away with not doing anything to solve the problem and made a tidy profit. Now, the problem has been dumped in the laps of every homeowner in New England who lives in an older house--most of us. The homeowner should do whatever they feel comfortable with and the government has no business getting involved. They should have been involved years ago when big companies were poisoning future generations.
Pay me now or pay me later
If you are willing to pay to support a society of IQ-damaged people on a massive scale, go right ahead. That's a good way to grow a vibrant regional economy - make sure a goodly piece of the population is operating at less than full mental capacity.
In other news
George Bush was elected twice, and "American Idol" is the most popular show on TV. I'm not sure whose point this proves.
Just think how smart I would have been
If I didn't grow up in houses with lead paint.
And how tall I'd be if drinking coffee at 7 didn't stunt my growth.
sometimes when i read these
it makes me sketched because there is so much animosity. When someone stands in a room and declairs they are *smart* it usually means just the antithesis.
Not bad
just drawn that way?
Was that a chocolate declair?
like the one described here ?
i wonder
How smart I'd be if I got sleep during college!
They are oh so wrong
The child's blood lead levels may have been elevated before they moved in to their current home, but they failed to decline even after the parents removed the supposedly contaminated charm necklace.
Children's lead levels can decline quite rapidly if the parents are responding appropriately. For example, some friends of mine in NJ got their kid's lead level down from 21 to 13 in one month once they found out about the problem... and they took action wa-aa-aaay before their child's lead levels went over 25, much less over 30!
In that case, the child with the lead problem is one half of a set a twins; the other child had the same environmental exposure but could get the lead out much more effectively, so his lead levels never got above 12, iirc. That fact may be confusing the Wellesley couple, who are seeing that their other kid is o.k. and obviously not listening to those who know more than they do.
Sadly, their lead-poisoned child is in critical danger of life-long impairment because of their refusal to take effective action. So, the State is right to take action before their child becomes dependent on State-funded care all her life.
Their child would be oh so much better off if they removed all the lead in her environment and got her lead levels down asap. Who knows why they don't understand that? Who knows why they don't care about her welfare?
Let's just hope they are not also the type of ignoramous who thinks vaccinations are too dangerous. That poor child may survive the lead poisoning only to die or get brain-damaged from the measles!
Making things up
Just confuses the matter.
For example: "The child's blood levels... failed to decline even after the parents removed the supposedly contaminated charm necklace."
The article says only that her lead levels, tested in Feb 2007, two months before they moved into their house in April 2007, was 37. It doesn't say whether it declined or not.
So either you have another source, or you made that up.
Lead poisoning is a terrible thing. But nothing in that article or in anything said here links it to the paint in their current house.
Sue paintmakers and big oil
Why should a hardworking family have to spend 100k getting this fixed while big oil and the paintmakers sit back in luxury? It's an outrage against the middle class.
Those bastards caused this in the first place and they must be made to pay.
Pretty obvious from these comments
SwirlyGrrl = informed, passionate, most likely correct compared to other commentators.
I appreciate what you have written and agree with you 100%
Normally...
I'd agree with you regarding SwirlyGrrl, however on this particular topic, she seems more along the lines of "frothing" than just passionate.
Latte
Coming right up.
Except I usually prefer black coffee, like most epidemiologists I know.