Loaded for bear on the Red and Orange lines
By adamg - Tue, 05/06/2008 - 12:28pm.
Bobbob hasn't taken the T regularly for three years now, so wonders if the following sight is unusual:
... [T]here were two very buff, swat-team style cops with large guns -- I don't know my guns, but this sure wasn't a handgun, it extended about the length of his torso. Is this a new thing? Have there been military style police riding the rails for a while now? I opted to take the next train but the other passengers seemed less surprised.
Amazingly, JP Beat got a photo of two T SWATters at Back Bay station this morning, and they don't look like they're about to order him to the ground and rip the memory card out of his camera.
Maybe they were too busy looking for this evil dude.
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I'm by no means a gun guy,
I'm by no means a gun guy, but they look like MP5s to me.
Looks like an AR-15
Not big on my rifles, but I think that's a modded AR-15.
The magazine and stock look
The magazine and stock look more like what you'd get on an mp5.
Yeah
I agree, the magazine was really messing with me, but the barrel doesn't narrow the way an MP5 usually does which is messing with me too. Maybe it's just the angle or something.
Tacticool
They do look positively ridiculous. This is the police version of what is referred to in internet parlance as "tacticool". It's all the rage.
It's basically a fetish for "tactical military" looking gear, and evidence that the transit police are busying themselves playing around with pointless training in case a platoon of terrorists suddenly parachute into North Station with assault rifles and hijack an Orange Line train.
Maybe if they actually (GASP) rode the trains instead of playing war against pretend terrorists and using up their Junior Woodchuck Bomb Testing supplies, we'd actually have REAL safety from the people ACTUALLY committing crimes on the subway (y'know, theft, battery, etc.)
I think it's a good idea to
I think it's a good idea to have a tactical response team that are trained how to operate in transit tunnels, near 3rd rails and so on an so forth. Regardless of terrorists other hostage situations could erupt on a train or in a station and are very real possibilities.
yeah, it's such fucking rocket science.
think it's a good idea to have a tactical response team that are trained how to operate in transit tunnels, near 3rd rails and so on an so forth
Yeah, that and other mind-bending complexities of the subway system. Like those complicated Charliecards. Gotta train to avoid problems trying to travel to your terrorist incident:
"Ready at the gates men? TAP in THREE, TWO...JOHNSON, ARE YOU TRYING TO GET US ALL KILLED? TAP, not wave! SMITH! You forgot to tap your card after loading it, didn't you! MARTINEZ! That's a BUS pass, you were supposed to buy a COMBO! SHIT! Here comes the next train! It's after rush-hour and we're on the E line- it'll be 30 minutes before the next one, MOVE IT, MOVE IT!"
The danger isn't over once you and your squad are through the gates, though: Downtown Crossing has that horrible keyboard player (tactical earplugs), Harvard Square has the stagnant piss (gasmask/air freshners), and then there's the loooooong walks between platforms at Arlington, Downtown X-ing, Park St, etc (Segways, naturally.)
And then, the ultimate tactical blunder: "WHAT? This is an ASHMONT train?"
Regardless of terrorists other hostage situations could erupt on a train or in a station and are very real possibilities.
Really? Name the last one. Take your pick, terrorist or hostage "situation" on the MBTA. And, incidentally, did you notice that the state police and Boston both have teams already? Howzabout that!
Pent up aggression?
Sounds like someone didn't ever get to be the cop in Cops & Robbers.
The Boston SWAT doesn't have jurisdiction everywhere the that the MBTA travels so if something happens to occur outside of Boston city limits then they are reliant on the State's TRU or the TRU of the community that the problem happens to be in (assuming they have one), now you're at the mercy of who knows how many people you hope have at least the same amount of training and hopefully won't get themselves or any others killed (except for the bad guys) because they aren't really familiar with how best to approach a situation on a confined train car.
Really? Name the last one. Take your pick, terrorist or hostage "situation" on the MBTA. And, incidentally, did you notice that the state police and Boston both have teams already? Howzabout that!
Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't. I agree that some preemptive measures are completely unnecessary, but having a group of people who know how to handle themselves in the unique situation that a subway tunnel or a commuter rail car present isn't really unreasonable.
I like this logic
Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't.
Just because the Earth hasn't crashed into the Sun yet doesn't mean it won't. Just because Ronan Tynan hasn't won American Idol yet doesn't mean he won't. Just because they haven't made bacon shampoo yet doesn't mean they won't.
This is fun!
Here's the thing: Yes, there are such things as useful preventative tactics, but there's also such things as token gestures and high-visibility/poor-effectiveness moves. I mean, the ride on the Red Line is already a circus of soul-sucking, crushing depression. Do we really need a small group of guys dressed up like they're auditioning for Navy SEALs: The Next Generation and sporting weapons that appear well-suited for a picnic in Sadr City to help the atmosphere?
They're decoration, plain and simple. And they're not providing a gesture that makes people feel safer; it's a gesture that makes people feel like they've suddenly fallen into the set of Starship Troopers. And if that's the case then I definitely demand my chance to shower with Denise Richards and Dina Meyer, dammit.
I'm not arguing for their standing around Back Bay.
I'm simply arguing for their existence.
I agree that there isn't any reason to parade them around all dolled up in their Sunday best at T-stops.
I think we're around the same page on this one.
A well-trained security force is a good thing, yeah.
Tacticool shocktroopers whose intent (it appears) is to foster an image of constant Rainbow Six presense rather than be actually prepared for combat, well, that's not so hot.
Are we approaching the same accord here?
Why yes, I do believe we
Why yes, I do believe we are.
bacon shampoo? brilliant!
bacon shampoo? brilliant!
Bacon shampoo?!? Ewwwwwww!!!!!
Can you just imagine how your hair would stink at the end of the day? And if you went out in the sun, forgidit!!
That's the best thing I've read all day
The E-Line after rush-hour bit was the best, but you should have made it Sunday morning, with the cops running over to Ruggles to catch the Orange Line in frustration, only to wait ANOTHER 30 minutes there, too.
Finally, our intrepid heroes try the #39 bus, only to find out that the T is mysteriously not running articulated vehicles that day, and they've got to wait for the next one.
Meanwhile ...
Johnson! JOHNSON! ... Where's Johnson??
Doors closed before he could get on, sir!
What station was that!
Downtown Crossing, Sir!
(radios) JOHNSON! REPORT!
(muffled static) here sir!
Where are you, Johnson!
(muffled) trying to find my way to the green line, sir!
RESCUE PARTY FORM UP! Stay right there Johnson, we're coming after you! Just hang on ... hang on.
War. War never changes.
We lost Axeman early on while making a connection. The car that pulled up to him was disabled and he couldn't board anywhere else. The next five trains that passed by him didn't stop; they were Express to Harvard. The poor bastard never had a chance.
Cooper and The Hammer took a Braintree train and were never heard from again. Signal troubles, they told us, that was the official cause.
Signal troubles.
Silverman attempted to take the 5:15 Framingham train out of South Station. He never even saw what was coming. We found him wandering around West Newton nine hours later, repeatedly muttering something about snow on the tracks. His brain was permanently fried.
It was the middle of July.
There are things I've seen, nightmare memories I'll never be able to escape: the fat guy cutting his toenails on the Orange Line. The out-of-town family huddled on a bench at the Aquarium stop all wide-eyed and bewildered, asking passers-by how to get to Fenway Park. The guy with the extra-loud iPod next to me. The smell of the end of the Downtown Crossing platform. And the discarded newspapers, oh, the discarded Metros all over the floor, my god they practically carpeted the train with 'em, and then the stray Dunkin' Donuts cup, rolling around the papers and leaving a trail of rancid coffee no matter where it goes...
...I shoulda punched my own Charlie Card when I had the chance.
I think we've got a great script so far
Between the posts here, I bet we could get some talky-talky from the studio bigwigs.
I wonder if the MBTA would give us the filming permits :->
Permits? Probs not
MBTA sez:
Official Marching Jody
Now all we need to do is to convert the signature song into a jody, or marching chant:
Sarge: Oh let me tell the story 'bout a man named Charlie
Platoon: OH HE NEVER RE-TURNED, NO HE NEVER RE-TURNED
Sarge: He will ride forever neath the streets of Boston
Platoon: AND HIS FATE'S UNLEARNED, YES HIS FATE'S UNLEARNED
H&K MP5 (or variant thereof)
9mm carbine, available in semiautomatic civilian version, or select-fire version for military/law enforcement.
Also...
If you take one of those on a bear hunt, you better file the front sight off so it doesn't hurt so much when the ticked-off bear you just shot with it shoves it up your ass. [/snark]
If you only fire one round
If you only fire one round into a bear, you deserve to have it shoved up your ass.
It's semi-automaticness makes up for it's lack of stopping power.
MP5A3?
It's hard to tell from the picture but that looks like a collapsible stock, which would make it an MP5A3 (assuming it's an MP5 in the first place).
However, the barrel looks too long to be an MP5 or MP5A3. Perhaps it's fitted with a suppressor?
The hilarious thing is
They don't seem to give a damn if someone takes their picture.
Now, try to take a picture of a bench, train or a piece of lint floating around a station, and the customer service people will be calling the inspectors on your ass.
Well...
That would be hilarious...
...if it wasn't 110% true.
The Express Bus to Danger!
You just know these are the guys who ride around the T's super bad A-Team style SWAT bus.
boston.com...mbta_unit_with_big_bad_bus_has_seen_little_action
Nice Guys - Professionals
When I came up the stairs from the Orange Line and saw the firepower, I asked them if I could take a picture. The guy on the left gave me the go ahead. I stepped back, made the snapshot, and thanked them. The guy on the right was curious about my book, Blogging Heroes. They're just two professionals doing their job. Aside from the special equipment and tactics, they've likely trained to spot suspicious behavior. Nothing deters terrorists and troublemakers as well or as cost-effectively as a well-armed well-trained presence. Morning commuters in London and Madrid would have been lucky to have this kind of protection when they needed it.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2048602_recognize-terrorist-behavior.html
Wishful thinking
I doubt that gun-toting cops would have been able to pick out a few guys appearing to do nothing but carry backpacks onto trains.
You and I would both take those odds
You and I would have both taken those odds if we had any inkling that we or our loved ones were going to be among the 848 people murdered or 3094+ people injured in train-related terrorist acts (mostly bombings) around the world in the past six years. If you doubt it, visualize grieving over a loved one and then hearing the director of the MBTA give a televised speech explaining that she had withheld funding for anti-terrorist training, equipment, and staffing because there was no certainty that it would work.
You're so romantic
Either that, or you know a cop that has special x-ray vision, 24 hour availability, and can be everywhere all at once.
It wasn't the transit system response that failed - it was the lack of information that people were planning the bombings. More cops would have meant more dead cops as they would not have been able to flag the "suspicious" passengers in any noticeable way. The Madrid and London bombers left backpacks and bags around and (mostly) left. They did this in a coordinated manner and not all at once either.
Killing an innocent man for being brown solves all that, eh? Gee, I feel much safer now.
How would you prevent a transit bombing?
I never said killing anyone solved anything. Shame on you for trying to put words in my mouth. I'm against killing. That's why I'd like to see the 2-3 major transit bombings that kill and wound hundreds around the world each year prevented and stopped. I also grieved (yes, tears in my eyes) when police shot and killed Jean Charles de Menezes. As a half-Argentinian, as someone whose family survived the 'dirty wars' of the 70s and 80s, as a human being, I revile police brutality, arbitrary detention, disappearances, and all the other horrors that follow stripping people of their constitutional and human rights. In spite of that, I still believe that having specially trained and equipped municipal police is a good thing. The kind of mockery and personal attacks I've seen here only alienate and isolate the police from the citizenry, and lead to the very problems these critics decry. So I ask you, instead of attacking me, what would you do to make things better? And what would you do to prevent a bombing here in Boston?
Well said
It would be a nice idea for everybody to be constructive instead of knee-jerky. The idea that you must be in the Aryan Brotherhood because you disagree with ridiculing public servants is unworthy of an intelligent person.
Speaking as a professional (I analyze the performance of explosives detection systems for a living), I think the proven answer to how to prevent transit bombings is simple: good police work. That's what really stops bombers.
Sure, the uniform doesn't make the officer, and it looks funny sometimes. And toting around those big guns with no particular target isn't really making anybody safer either. But that's no reason to go off the deep end in criticizing people who really are trying to make us safer. Cut them some slack. They probably think they look dorky too.
What could make a difference is good police training and more coordination of the police force with the Feds and other intelligence agencies. That and more dogs. The best explosives detection system around has four legs.
Lucky Londoners
Unless they're, y'know, Brazilian electricians.
They may have been nice to you...
... because you are white*. Try being of Arab descent and asking to take their photo.
As for that "terrorist" behavior recognition stuff, you need to add "wearing a green ski jacket"!
And I just want to amplify what Arborway wrote. The idea that tacticool will actually prevent well-organized terrorism is wishful thinking.
*I'm right, aren't I?
Wrong.
I'm 1/4 Lebanese. Two armed transit cops got on my B line train this morning and I was actually acting very suspicious in retrospect. I was fidgety and constantly checking out the window. I had a bus to catch and we were going to likely miss it by minutes. Oh well, the guy didn't do a thing about it.
Thanks for trying to stick me in a racist box, but no thanks.
I don't believe in your "check this box" mentality. My ancestors and cultural heritage are fairly well distributed across four continents.
Those two look MUCH more friendly...
... than the two at North Station about two weeks ago. The sight of two black-clad, rifle-toting, mean-looking guys in my way at 7:20 am made me stop and exclaim, "Holy Shit!!!!"
Fortunately, they just frowned at me. But when I see police state-style security forces like that it scares the pants off me.
I think: Are they Blackwater? Do they have PTSD? Are they on drugs? What's to keep one of them from deciding I'm a terrorist for swearing at him? How about deciding I'm a terrorist because I'm carrying a package? Am I going to be detained just because someone has a weapon and a grudge? Am I going to be searched?
It's really the opposite of 'security'. More like 'anxiety'.
it's the turkey patrol
Gotta keep them gobblers off the T.