Man who collapsed during arrest after Celtics victory dies; DA to investigate
Boston Police report that David Woodman, 22, of Southwick, died today at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, 11 days after he collapsed while being arrested on Brookline Avenue in the Fenway following the Celtics win:
Officers observed an individual, crossing the street with a group of four others, drinking from an open container of what was believed to be alcohol. Officers attempted to conduct a threshold inquiry when the suspect attempted to flee. He was soon subdued by officers. The suspect began struggling with the officers as they attempted to handcuff him.
At that time, officers realized that he was in medical distress; they immediately began to administer CPR and summonsed EMS to that location. An ambulance arrived on scene and took over emergency CPR. He was rushed to Beth Israel Medical Center.
The Suffolk County DA's office, Boston Police homicide unit and Boston Police internal-affairs unit are all investigating. Autopsy results are pending.
The Herald had previously reported that Woodman had a pre-existing cardiac condition.
began struggling as...
The suspect began struggling with the officers as they attempted to handcuff him.
No, he began struggling before they attempted to handcuff him. Something else happened as they attempted to handcuff him.
cops too worried about their own authority
What's a sports championship without a civilian death? At least this guy wasn't shot in the head with a rubber bullet.
Anybody remember how many millions of dollars were paid to the family to settle for the city's negligence in that case?
Keeping control of a mob is no easy matter but why escalate an open container problem? Have the guy dump it in the garbage and find out if he's driving or walking.
If you read the report, they
If you read the report, they attempted to find out that information when he took off running.
prettiest looking lipstick
The police report is the prettiest looking lipstick that you can put on this pig.
We'll see what other have to say. Don't be surprised to hear the kid did not resist arrest and to hear the police used excessive force.
For all we know, he started
For all we know, he started walking away. It’s the same as fleeing, and also can be considered resisting arrest. They got that on him when he was struggling.
Here’s a question. Is it really necessary to tackle a kid drinking a beer in public and walking away from you? I’m all for cops upholding the law, but what ever happened to making him pour it in the drain and telling him to get the frak outta there? Wouldn’t that have freed up time they could have used to, you know, stop the idiots who were vandalizing the law office windows?
I was friends with Dave. He
I was friends with Dave. He did not resist at all. I know the kids who were there. He died because of unnecessary brute force. He would still be laughing today if the cops who had attacked him listened to his friends who were screaming that he had a heart condition. Further more they didn't administer CPR right away. People should consider his family and loved ones before the automatically believe the cops.
Testify
If this is true, you owe it to him to come forward and testify.
you're a proud friend.
Aren't you, anon?
Officers observed an
Officers observed an individual, crossing the street with a group of four others, drinking from an open container of what was believed to be alcohol.
Officers attempted to conduct a threshold inquiry when the suspect attempted to flee. He was soon subdued by officers. The suspect began struggling with the officers as they attempted to handcuff him. At that time, officers realized that he was in medical distress; they immediately began to administer CPR and summonsed EMS to that location.
Officers attempted to an
Officers attempted to an inquiry when he fleed? He didn't flee, he was complying with the officers and they beat him up for no reason at all. Not only that, but when one of the kids he was with tried to help him up to his feet, they shoved that kid. And then went back to beating on him. This is ridiculous and I hope those cops pay for what they did. If they don't in this life, they can be sure that they will in the next one.
An eyewitness!
If there's a suit, I hope you stand up and testify. Otherwise, you're just kibbitzing.
David Woodman, who had been
eating donuts
Nothing like prejudging, eh?
No, I wasn't there, but neither were you, I'm betting.
another masshole heard from
everything I posted above was a direct quote from the globe article except for the joke about [donuts] so tell me how it is I'm prejudging, asshole. apparently the thin blue line runs right down the middle of Universal Hub.
instead of judging others, why don't you write what conclusions you think can be drawn from the two articles?
Do you talk to your mother with that mouth?
The Globe never prints things that turn out to be wrong and parents in shock and grief over the death of their son never make statements that turn out not to be true, huh? I could get all Dog Day Afternoonish and start yelling "Charles Stuart! Charles Stuart! Charles Stuart!" but you probably wouldn't get either the reference to the movie or Stuart, so I won't.
I'm not saying the police account is right. I'm saying I have no clue what really happened that night, and that's why it makes sense for the DA's office to investigate. I am betting that you don't know any more than I do about what really happened, but that you seem to be the sort of person who believes police are always, automatically wrong.
Wow, one straw dog after the
Wow, one straw dog after the next. First Charles Stuart and then grieving parents. I'm more likely to take notice of your grieving parents argument then your Charles Stuart argument but here's my point.
First, you criticized two postings that contain only excerpts from the globe articles and no opinion from me as being pre-judging. Why?
Second, there is information in both articles which one can read and form an opinion about. When you hear a person tell a story, sometimes their facts are out of place or just plain sound like bullshit. Re-read the police report with a modicum of skepticism and see what your brain tell you about what makes sense and what does not.
Next, read today's Globe article and do the same. Then compare the two stories and see what picture of the truth forms in your head.
Next, why post the stories if your criticize how people react to them? At the very least you ought to be willing to say what aspects of the stories you believe and what you do not. I mean, it doesn't take a newspaper man to realize either they began to give him CPR immediately or they didn't.
Okay, it was the donuts that got me
People who bring up donuts in a discussion about cops and a dead kid don't always seem willing to listen to both sides before making a decision.
ok dount crack was provocative
Fair enough and I can certainly see why that donuts comment might have been provocative. I envisioned ten cops letting the guy lie face down and cuffed and chatting while they wait for the arrest van, none of them noticing he's stopped breathing. I'll wash my mouth out before I kiss mom and I'll try to keep it clean.
Isn't it?
Isn't "donut crack" redundant?
Mmmmm, donut crack....
dog day afternoon!
There is no finer thing in all Hollywood than Al Pacino throwing a full-on, eyes-bulging, balls-to-the-wall fit. No one throws a fit like that man.
I'd forgotten all about that bizarre, incredible movie. I think I'm gonna go rent it again.
Not the same anon?
Maybe you're not the same anonymouse. I was hoping that the anonymouse who alleged that the cops beat up the guy's friend for trying to help the guy off the ground would give us more true details he witnessed. I think witnesses will probably be important in determining whether the police committed an offense.
Pasting text from the Globe is almost as easy as leaping to conclusions, though marginally more useful.
It does help us learn that the college dropout initiated the encounter by walking over and making wise-ass remarks to the cops.
It's a tragic loss that absolutely could have been prevented.
Kids: don't walk up to cops and make wise-ass remarks while you're breaking the law. It will get you arrested. If you struggle while you're getting arrested, you will likely get hurt. If you are piss-drunk and have a heart condition, the exertion might kill you.
left alone unobserved
There are significant inconsistencies between the police report and the eyewitness interviewed and quoted in today's Globe article. Either the deceased 'fled' or he didn't. Either they immediately began CPR or they didn't. Either they neglected him when he was under their control, arrested,or they didn't.
You say: "It's a tragic loss that absolutely could have been prevented" and then lay the blame on the feet of the kid because of his drinking, his comment (which was not hostile and certainly does not represent a threat) and his heart condition.
You assume when the police detained him physically, that the force they used was justified because (1) he fled or (2) he resisted arrest. Even if he did flee or resisted arrest, how do you know the force they used was justified?
Whether the force they used did or did not trigger a cardiac event, they still have an affirmative responsibility to not neglect him when he's under their control. It appears they may have left him face down and unobserved after the arrest for a period of about four minutes when his breathing stopped.
His mom knows the police report is not fully forthcoming about the events of that night and I tend to agree.
Multiple truths
If they left him face down and unobserved, knowing as they state that he was extremely inebriated, that was bad. Extremely inebriated people are a danger to themselves, even cuffed up. He could have rolled on his back, puked in his mouth, and suffocated. So I agree they had the obligation to keep an eye on them. I don't know whether they fulfilled it to a reasonable extent.
I don't think it's in doubt that they called an ambulance for him before any medical problem besides his inebriation was noted. The urgency of their request and the timing of their noticing he wasn't conscious are what's in doubt. The ambulance was there 11 minutes after they apprehended him. Is that unreasonably slow? Not normally.
It doesn't appear clear exactly how much force the police used. Enough to restrain him, certainly, but how much above that? We don't know. Perhaps an eyewitness would. The more a person struggles, the more force is required to restrain him. As you say, it is unclear whether he tried to run, and to what extent he struggled with the police arresting him.
We don't know whether they used excessive force. We don't know whether the force they used triggered the cardiac event, or if it was triggered by something else, such as the unusual and stressful position he was in (laying down with his hands cuffed behind him).
To find out all these things, I imagine we'll have to wait some still.
In terms of the blame I lay, I think it should be pretty clear to anybody that if you are in the process of breaking a law, walking up to a bunch of cops and making wise-ass remarks to them is likely to have negative repercussions for you. If you have an oustanding warrant and a heart condition, it's simply idiotic.
It was entirely appropriate of the police to arrest him. Exactly why that arrest played out the way it did remains to be seen. Assuming it's because the cops just beat him to death for no good reason, or sat around eating donuts and laughing at his heart attack, isn't going to get us any closer to the truth.
I hope there's a fair and open inquiry. If some officers are found to have acted inappropriately, I hope those officers are punished. I hope that if they haven't, that they are cleared. However, I don't think it's fair to skip the inquiry and go straight to condemnation.
He wasn't a college
He wasn't a college drop-out, first off, and second off he may have made a wise-ass remark but he didn't flee, he didn't resist and he wasn't a drunk. He wasn't even drunk, he may have been drinking. Not only that, but his face was beaten to shit, he had brain damage from lack of oxygen, and he had to be put into a medically induced coma. He was killed by those cops. And that isn't just a conclusion, it's the truth. And so you know, I do know that for a fact, I was there. I saw it all, and I knew him personally.
Testify
As I say to all the other anonymice who claim they were there and saw it all (for whatever event; this is not the first): testify. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke.
My bet is you made all this up. Unless you testify in public, I'll continue to believe that.
"He wasn't being a punk or anything like that,"????????
"According to one of the friends, as Woodman passed the officers, he said, "Wow, it seems like there's a lot of crime on this corner."
Wiseass remark. Strike one.
"Officers grabbed Woodman, who was carrying a plastic cup of beer"
Drinking in public. Strike two.
"Woodman was also wanted on a separate arrest warrant, which was issued after he failed to appear in Roxbury District Court in August for a charge of malicious destruction of property."
Previous arrest in Boston for being an idiot.Three strikes.
I dont think you get many chances when the cops are in riot gear and preparing for the worst.When I was growing up the cops had certain weekends when they arrested ANYONE drinking in public, no questions asked. Many weekends they might have told him to dump it out.Not this night.They were doing their jobs, clearing the corner, keeping the city under control. If Mr Woodman had not chosen to drink in public and make a smart remark to the 10-12 policemen on the corner we might not be having this conversation today.I am sorry the kid died but the cops were doing what they were supposed to do.
police report discrepencies are a red flag
If the Police(
(1)used excessive force, if they
(2)used excessive force which triggered a cardiac event, if
(3)he was restrained and in need of medical assistance and they neglected him,
the cops were not doing what they were supposed to do.
There are disputed claims between the police report and the assertions made by eye-witnesses in today's Globe. Those discrepancies are a red flag.
who do you think you are?
daivd, speakign from knowing him personally was a good kid, you don't know him so please, don't say thses thigns acting liek you do, you weren't there you don't know. was i? no. but who do you think you are to get online and talk liek this about someone you don't know. i did and now everyday we have to live without him and it breaks my heart and others to wonder if it could have been prevented had the cops not been so eager to chase down a kid in the street with a beer, im sure they coudl have been taking care of far more imprtant things then going after a kid wallkign down the street with a beer. so from someone who KNEW david, i will miss him and why dont you see the bigger picture that a live is gone, his family is stuggling, he was a loved son, brother, and friend, and now, at 22 he's gone. so why don't you use your spare time you seem to have to write about someone you don't know and use it to say a prayer for his family and friends instead, rip david.
Capital Offenses
Smart remarks? Drinking beer in public?
Even Leviticus wouldn't go that far with the smiting there Bostnkid!
Yikes! I didn't know that 9/11 changed everything our Patriot types in these parts fought so hard to change! When you think about what happened in Boston in the 1770s, wasn't arbitrary and excessive police authority and excessive force way at the top of the list of tyrranical practices?
So many capital offenses
Obviously the Tories won a belated victory.
Fishing is a capital offense - someone died doing it!!!
Rafting is a capital offense.
Swimming is a capital offense.
Stealing motorcycles is a capital offense.
Diving is a capital offense.
So many capital offenses... Kayaking, sky-diving, wind-surfing, even pulling dogs from stump grinders.
On the brighter side, the X Games will make drunken assholery a new Extreme Sport for next year's Brawny Classic.
I didn't click on all those links...
...but if people doing all those things are dying at the hands of, or in the custody of, agents of the state, we truly do have a problem.
Didja ever notice
How this guy wasn't in the custody of the police when he died?
Maybe we could at least wait for the autopsy before rounding up the lynch mob.
Died versus Being Killed
There is a difference.
Next up: Gareth rationalizes why a bunch of supposedly highly trained and highly paid professionals in riot gear are completely neurologically - or is that endocrinologically - unable to resist going after a person making a stupid snark.
Yes, Swirly, there is a difference
Unfortunately, you don't seem to know what it is.
You can have a heart attack doing all kinds of things. Shoveling snow, rafting, getting married - or having yourself an exciting evening's arrest.
If the kid was beaten to death, now that would be being killed. But I haven't seen even the most irresponsible cop-haters here allege that. (Might be the facts stopping them). It could have happened on the b-ball court or in the middle of a healthy romp, but for some reason, the kid's bum heart seems to have picked that copful moment to give it up.
Now about things we're unable to resist... I have a hard time resisting a free lunch. If you're a cop, and some guy who is in the midst of breaking a law comes up to you and makes an asinine remark at a time when you are deployed for the specific purpose of arresting troublemakers... well, that's kinda like a free lunch. Furthermore, in arresting him, they did the right thing.
Oh, so they arrested him?
Didn't you just say that he wasn't in custody?
Gee, Swirly,
I've been arrested before, and I'm not in custody.
Bit of a time warp there ...
as in "a few minutes" versus a "few years".
Nice try - you think a grand jury will buy that?
Timeline
Obviously, you've lost track of the timeline
Arrest: June 18
Death: June 29
So what happened in a few minutes again?
He was apparently deprived of oxygen
But I suppose that oxygen wasn't in custody either?
Is that why he died?
You must have more information than is in the Glob, which suggests he had a heart attack on 18 June, stopped breathing for several minutes, and indicates the cause of death on 29 June, after he had awoken and spoke coherently to his parents, is still unknown. Do share. Or, even better, use your MIT-fu to speculate!
Wait a sec! He was at the hospital when he died! Are you going to accuse the nurses of murdering him now?
Dun DUN
That would be the Law and Order twist, wouldn't it? Dude survives a brutal cop beating, delay in receiving medical treatment, a latent heart condition, relapses and returns to the hospital where he's done in by a homicidal serial killer posing as a nurse who breaks down under cross-examination and confesses on the witness stand!
Give Swirly a big And
...making a stupid snark...
AND walking around with an open container of alcohol.
Who cares?
He was of age and not driving. In less parochial places that wouldn't be a problem - perfectly legal.
swirly
in a less parochial place it would not be a problem? perfecetly legal? ok, but the problem is that we are in boston and its not legal.enough with this.
ie: Missouri
One of the most alcohol-permissive states, perhaps only behind Nevada and Louisiana:
No open container law.[3]
No blue laws.
No state public intoxication law.
No prohibition on absinthe.
Liquor control law[4] covers all beverages containing more than .05% alcohol, without further particularities based on percentage.[5]
Cities and counties are prohibited from banning off-premises alcohol sales.[6]
No dry jurisdictions.
State preemption of local alcohol laws which do not follow state law.
Certain bars in Kansas City and St. Louis grandfathered into the ability to double as liquor stores.
Special licenses available for bars and nightclubs which allow selling alcohol until 3:00am
Grocery stores, drug stores, and even gas stations may sell liquor without limitation other than hours.[12]
No prohibition on consumption by minors, though possession,[13] purchase,[14] and intoxication[15] by minors is prohibited.
Patrons allowed to take open containers out of bars
Parents and guardians may furnish alcohol to their children.[17]
Missourians over 21 may manufacture up to 100 gallons of any liquor per year for personal use, without any further state limitation, state taxation, or state license.[18]
(Obtaining a permit from the Federal Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau and meeting other requirements under federal law probably still is required for private citizens to manufacture distilled alcohol - but not wine or beer - for personal use.[19][20][21][22][23])
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States_by_state
dropping leviticus on my ass?
i grew up in boston. i was arrested twice in my life, both times in boston. the first time i asked the cop why he was arresting me. he punched me in the face and i paid a hundred dollar fine.the second time i kept my mouth shut and only had to pay the hundred dollar fine.the third time never happened.im not saying cops should hit kids but i know that they do.not in this case.this is a case of a kid pushing all the limits the police had set for that night.a heart attack killed him, not the police.
Abuse
Abuse is abuse is abuse. Just because you were abused, that doesn't make it 1) effective 2)right 3)legal or 4)professional.
We all hear about how highly trained these people are when the shit hits the fan or the precious details are endangered. Pity they don't seem to remember that when the circumstances call for professional behavior and restraint.
All he said was, must be a
All he said was, must be a lot of crime. Making a light joke about things. And he didn't have outstanding warrants, he took care of those. The cops didn't have to beat him up, they didn't have to use any kind of force, and he wasn't even being wild or anything. He was trying to go home. And he wasn't the only one drinking in public that night. The cops just wanted a reason to be assholes. But according to you, murder is alright as long as there is no open containers on the streets. Nice.
Parents blame police
The Globe talks to them.
So, whats the tally? Cops:
So, whats the tally?
Cops: 2
Masshole Driver: 1
Drunk "Riot-ers": 0
That's pretty telling right there.
the score
Cops: 10-12
Dead History Major was carrying beer in public: 1
Drunk "Riot-ers": 0
Donuts: two dozen
If you're going to be accurate
You'd change Drunk Rioters to 1, because don't forget the guy who got run over before Snelgrove during the Patriots "celebration" a few months earlier by the guy who was trying to escape a drunken mob.
So what we have is: Police don't react enough, so a guy gets run over and people get outraged that the police didn't do enough and then the police overreact and a poor woman gets shot in the eye by a cop and dies and people get outraged that the police did too much and now we're left with the fact that maybe, just maybe, if drunken "fans" would stop smashing windows and knocking over giant concrete planters, we wouldn't have to be having this conversation to begin with.
Like I said, Masshole
Like I said,
Masshole Driver: 1
He wasn't drunk, or a part of the "riot-ers" from what I remember. He wasn't even being provoked or attacked by the "riot-ers".
They were in the road, and he was sick of waiting, so he floored it thinking everyone would let his privileged ass through. Unfortunately some kid couldn't jump away in time and ended up under his ride.
Aw, that's cute
Isn't it cute when the anons act like you can tell them apart?
"Like I said"...heh.
It would help
If the site appended the IP address for anonymous logins. As in "Anon at 216.27.61.137."
Good idea.
Good idea.
It was drunk rioters that
It was drunk rioters that prompted the Masshole driver to speed backward in reverse, hitting Jamie Grabowski.
It was drunk rioters that prompted a Boston Police officer to fire the FN-303 pellet that hit Victoria Snelgrove.
It's two-tenths of a mile from the corner of Fenway and Brookline Ave to Beth Israel. According to the Globe article, it took a Cataldo ambulance 13 minutes to drive that distance. Who on earth could have caused such traffic congestion at 1:00 on a Thursday morning?
Drunk rioters: 3
Bull flop
Not a strong believer in personal responsibility, eh?
The guy who hit Grabowski did it of his own volition while drunk. That's his fault not the rest of the city being crazy.
The cop that shot Snelgrove in the face was suspended without pay for over a month and other cops were hammered by the department for their actions that night. You don't get punished if you were doing your job and it was the drunk rioters' fault.
The 13 minutes wasn't just driving. That's from the time of their arrival on the scene, including treatment on location, to the time they arrived at the hospital. Nevermind the fact that there were 6 minutes between the first call for an ambulance and the time when they realized he stopped breathing. Now, he's just down the street from Beth Israel but instead of busing him the 3 blocks there themselves, they waited another 5 minutes before flagging down an uninvolved private ambulance. Oh, and there weren't any drunk rioters in Longwood to get in the way, but hey, you go with your bad self.
So, you're incorrect on pretty much every one of your comments.
Kaz wins on the merit.
Kaz wins on the merit.
anon4564564848 agrees. This
anon4564564848 agrees.
This anon has said it before, and will say it again. These "riots" are nothing more then some drunk fans celebrating their team, a very few of them hoping to see someone else do something stupid, and a handful of them looking to cause trouble.
Wouldn't it be more effective to use small groups of police to cut off the head of the snake, and let the others wither and die away since there's nothing left to take interest into?
The tough part
Is figuring out which part is the head.
private contractors for Boston EMS
Now, he's just down the street from Beth Israel but instead of busing him the 3 blocks there themselves, they waited another 5 minutes before flagging down an uninvolved private ambulance.
Boston EMS contracts out to numerous ambulance companies. Cataldo was most likely the unit responding, not good Samaritans.
I guess another question is- if they were not dispatched by Boston EMS, where the hell *was* Boston EMS?
Isn't it also interesting that the cops a week ago ferried that baby themselves, but when it comes to a drunk guy they've smacked around, they can't be bothered?
Cataldo wasn't responding
The articles described Cataldo as being flagged down by the cops and that Boston EMS was not able to respond fast enough. There *was* something of a riot going on around Canal Street that night. I don't think Boston EMS can be everywhere at once. I'm not blaming Boston EMS, just saying that I could understand why they weren't the first ones on scene (given that this happened on the edge of Longwood and all, I doubt Cataldo was even the first ambo that passed by, just the first one to pass once the cops started getting nervous).
A side note
For many years, some cities have used Bicycle EMS Units to get EMTs and gear to people when regular ambulance support is difficult - like when streets or a road-free public area are crowded by a big festival, protest, etc.
EMS on bikes
There were plenty of EMS folks on bikes at the Puerto Rican parade yesterday and at Boston Pride a few weeks ago.
It was Saddam Hussein that
It was Saddam Hussein that prompted George Bush and Dick Cheney to drum up fraudulent intelligence to make their argument for a preemptive war, an invasion of, Iraq.
Saddam Hussein: 1
Then again maybe Saddam didn't MAKE George Bush do it, maybe George Bush did it on his own, using Saddam Hussein as his excuse.
Saddam Hussein: 0
He blinded me with ...
WTF?
Was that a
curveball?
Perhaps it was ...
a new form of Godwinning a thread?
DA to investigate
I predict the DA will find (1) the police filed a misleading police report. The cops have exposure for (2) excessive force, the claim about (3) resisting arrest will demonstrated to have been manufactured and they (4) were negligent because they did not notice the perpetrator was in physical distress.
yeah, right.
I predict:
1)The DA in the "joint" investigation will not find anything wrong 2)The cops involved will not even get so much as a verbal reprimand 3)Boston PD will be sued and 4)fight the lawsuit tooth and nail for a decade, thus 5)running up several million dollars in legal expenses 6)that will go straight into the pockets of lawyers who were former City Hall 'residents' (it's happened before.)
problems reconcilnig two accounts - police, eyewitness
The police made two fatal mistakes. They smashed this kid to the ground so hard he stopped breathing and they didn't notice he stopped breathing until it was too late.
Then to compound the problem, they asserted in writing:
1. the perp tried to flee
2. the cops used justifiable force to detain him
3. as soon as they cuffed him they noticed he was having trouble breathing and they uncuffed him immediately and they tried to resuscitate him immediately
To the contrary;
a. there is an eyewitness who says he did not flee. the eyewitness says they grabbed they kid, smashed him up against fence and dropped him on the ground face first.
That is likely when he stopped breathing.
a2. when they first called for an ambulance, they didn't know he needed resuscitation but the say they noticed he stopped breathing as son as he was cuffed. So which was it?
a3. when they called a second time for the ambulance, they did know he needed resuscitation. this is six minutes later. (Now we know, they didn't notice right away that he had stopped breathing. But how long did he lie face down in danger of brain damage and death, and in need of resuscitation?)
a4. He sustained brain damage because he stopped breathing and was not resuscitated within four minutes. When he is cuffed and in police custody, they are responsible for his well-being.
a5. The police department was not forthcoming in answering questions the parents had about the events.
a6. All of the officers went to stress counseling... what was the stress a result of? Certainly not because a poor kid with a heart condition and a outstanding warrant happened to die in their presence though no fault of their own. Maybe they had stress because some of some of the actions they took, and some of the actions they should have taken butdid not.
No eyewitness has come forward
To my knowledge, no eyewitness has come forward to say this. Do you have a link?
I've seen a few anonymous blog postings, but those don't really count. I could post anonymously that I'd seen Dick Cheney doing the Mambo on the kid's face.
I'm still trying to locate
I'm still trying to locate the source eyewitness statement that said he did not flee but this is relevant:
Relevant
Many things can be learned from this text. First, he was arrested because he approached the cops with an open container of beer and made a wise-ass remark. Second, he struggled with the cops. So far, that corroborates the cops' story.
As for "he wasn't being a punk..." I think the threshhold of punkitude has raised since I was a kid. What did his friend mean, that he wasn't grooming his hair in a faux-hawk?
I'm sure there were eyewitnesses. That friend sounds like one. And if there are, I hope they'll come forward, speak to the press on record, and later testify. Whatever the truth is, it should be known. What makes me a bit disgusted is someone logging onto a blog as anonymous and claiming he was there and saw it all and that's not what happened. Until they go on record, it's just a rumor, not evidence.
Yes, it is rumor, much like
Yes, it is rumor, much like everything else being printed. Of course there were witnesses....at least 4 of them were walking with him. Why haven't they talked to the press? Because, unlike the police department who is trying at all costs to paint a picture that will discredit the kid as being a valued member of society (therefore he deserved it), they are working with investigators.
woodman's friend said woodmen did not flee
The friend who returned to the scene is the person who said woodman did not flee. The globe takes old versions of the story offline when they publish updated ones, which is why I cannot find the quote.
Police commissioner's statement
Here.
DA's statement
From Suffolk County DA Dan Conley:
The boston.com headline read
Davis - No 'excessive force' used (quotes in original headline).
Do I detect a subtle editorial comment from the Glob here?
Yvonne Abraham has a point
I disagree with her saying Davis should not back his men, but she points out all the unknowns at this point and concludes it was too early for Davis to say no brutality was involved.
The main point being: we don't know.
Is it too early for Davis to say "While our investigation is still preliminary, it appears from the evidence that we have reviewed thus far that officers did not use excessive force?" I'm not so sure. Is it too early for an objective observer to agree with him? Yes, I think so.
Davis isn't an objective observer, nor do I think he has to be. He's the Police Commissioner, and if there are sides to an issue with the police on one, that's the side he's on, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's not a conspiracy, or a cover-up. It's preliminary, and it's biased, and it's not the end of the world or the end of the story.
The investigation continues, and I hope all the people who know something come forth to testify.
The fact that the cops didn't use batons or spray is a start, but it doesn't prove they didn't use excessive force. It's quite possible to do that without batons or spray. Just ask Thomas Junta.
I know from personal experience that it is possible to knock someone out by slamming him into the ground, or to break six of a guy's ribs, and I have no trouble believing you could stop someone's heart that way. Time will tell if that's what happened.
the main point
I think the main point is that the facts, important facts, key facts, are disputed and therefore not necessarily facts.
Secondly, the commissioner is not just the top supervisor of the police, he also is responsible for the trustworthiness and credibility of the department. He should support his guys but mostly he should support a truthful process. He's gotten ahead of the facts here. His support should not have advanced into disputed issues.
Wait: All nine cops needed counseling all at once?
From the Globe:
9 cops with stress; none of whom file the report
this is a problem. the guy who documents the course of events and timing was not even there when the events occured.
this thing smells, worse by the day.
can someone explain why all nine police officers were suffering from stress when, according to all accounts, Kenmore was dead as a doornail, except for four college boys, one of whom had a smart mouth and an open container, but he was taken care of pronto
Watching somebody go into cardiac arrest isn't stressful?
"I shot a man just to watch him die" isn't reality, unless you're thinking all cops are sociopaths.
The cops that dropped him,
The cops that dropped him, cuffed him and didn't notice he stopped breathing probably have some stress but that doesn't take 9 cops, it takes three or four at the most. Half the guys were uninvolved except as spectators. (I know you're not that gullible so why are you arguing devil's advocate?)
At the very least, they went ALL went in to counseling for cover. Stress is a mental condition that gives them some cover. And it also allows someone else to file the report, someone who was not an eyewitness.
Read the the story about the 2AM incident and tell me you think these cops are behaving in a reasonable manner. the 2AM incident is telling because it sounds like the same procedure (MO) as the "procedure" that killed Woodson.
The cops are overreacting and using excessive force. Explain why its OK for a cop to punch a person in the face twice and kick them when they're down.
In the other incident, which
They're using overwhelming
They're using overwhelming force as a deterrent for mob behaviour. The problem is that the citizens are not a threat that justifies overwhelming force.
Police Commish covers his own ass
David is asking for a review of department procedure, not for oversight by or investigation by the US Attorney's office.
At the least, the is political cover. I mean, he chose a lawyer in private practice who used to be the US Attorney. At most, he's aware of procedure that is problematic - like maybe slamming citizens to the ground when they're being arrested, punching them n the face and kicking them while they're down. What if that's policy!
Still, Woodman's parents don't trust the DA who is working with the Police and internal investigation. I don't blame them. The police have been circling the wagons from the word go and you don't need the Woodman's to tell you that to know its true.
LINK
a man who stopped breathing after his arrest
Police had faced discipline before
Police had faced discipline before
By Shelley Murphy and Maria Cramer
Globe Staff / July 3, 2008
STORY
another arrest that night
The kid - criminal justice major - that was apprehended at 2AM for trying to walk to his car from Remington's was supposed to have his arraignment today in Boston Municipal Court.
He said the police punched him in the face twice when they dropped him and pushed his face onto the ground. He also said one of the cops kicked him when he was down and cuffed.
I'm asking because I'm curious if this is standard procedure for police working crowd control. It's seem like excessive force to me. If I were walking to my car and a policeman asked me to walk around the block, I think I could try to discuss the request before I deserved to be arrested and beaten.
true!
FBI to probe death of fan - about time
Commissioner Davis worries me. He thinks his own detectives would be the best investigators to determine if there was a crime committed. Why risk a poor investigation or pit uniform cops against detectives? He could handed this over to the FBI with an understanding that nothing would be leaked unless charges were brought, and that a factual report would be delivered to the commissioner but no, we've put the FBI on the tail end of this relying on the quality of the work by department insiders.
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What's your point?
What's your point?
Full stop
My point is put a period on it. Repeatedly editing the same post so that it will pop up again and again on the recent comments list is asinine.
David Woodman's parents lawyer on NECN
David Woodman's parents lawyer on NECN video link here. This is a good review of the information the lawyer has been able to obtain..
beat down
skepticism about fair investigation