Lower the drinking age?
By adamg - 8/19/08 - 11:42 pm
A group of 100 college presidents, including Jack Wilson of UMass and Patricia Maguire Meservey of Salem State College, say it's time to lower the drinking age again:
These higher education leaders have signed their names to a public statement that the 21 year-old drinking age is not working, and, specifically, that it has created a culture of dangerous binge drinking on their campuses.
Comments
I don't really have an
By Boston Knucklehead - 8/20/08 - 6:29 am
I don't really have an opinion in one direction or another but this move would be both good and bad. Who's to say the youngins that are 15-17 will want to drink even more because they no they are much closer to that age. I doubt this would ever get approved anyways.
Yup.
By Route 66 - 8/20/08 - 1:29 pm
Vermont was one of the last states in the Union to raise its drinking age (the other was Louisiana) in the mid-80s. They made the change effective 1 July, 1986, thus cutting my senior class in half. I and a few of my friends lucked out but many of them didn't. What it did do was push those kids to drive over the Canadian border and try to smuggle booze back into Vermont. It caused a ton of headaches for the state college in my hometown because now the bar on campus was forced into being babysitters for those underclassmen who could no longer drink legally.
This issue is bigger than just changing the age on the law; it's about changing the mindset that Americans have about alcohol. Many European nations have a tradition where children might be served some small amount of wine with a meal when they're still in short pants, but we get all Puritanical and weirded out about it. It doesn't make any sense to harp on a kid all the way up until they're 21 - or 18 - about the evils or the dangers of alcohol and then when the clock strikes, and this kid becomes technically legal, to expect him/her to somehow have this magical ability to make a decision about it. I am not advocating plying ten year-olds with Thunderbird so that they 'get used to it'. I am saying that when one is exposed to it in familial situations, it could help develop more healthier attitudes toward alcohol so that when the college years come, those students would be less inclined to go off the deep end.
Colleges should discourage cars
By Ron Newman - 8/20/08 - 6:36 am
Alcohol is mostly a problem only if students drive cars (or boats, or other machinery) after drinking. Seems to me like lowering the drinking age should go along with discouraging or eliminating student cars on campus.
American exception
By MadMax - 8/20/08 - 8:17 am
Given that the rest of the planet sets the drinking age at 18, you'd think this change would be progressive. On the other hand, car usage is much higher in the US.
I find the whole subject rife with hypocrisy. I'm all for MADD going after drunk drivers. Just don't unfairly penalize kids, however.
And sometimes lower than 18
By Ron Newman - 8/20/08 - 8:19 am
In Israel, I recall buying beer from a street stand, where there seemed to be no age checking at all.
Best way to prevent drunk driving:
By Gareth - 8/20/08 - 9:39 am
Live within walking distance of a bar.
It isn't just the drunk driving
By SwirlyGrrl - 8/20/08 - 10:10 am
Kids are drinking excessively, and they are drinking alone. The stricter the Universities have become or have been required to be about underage drinking, the more kids hide and drink. This appears to have led to far more excessive drinking - e.g. downing a half-fifth in the room before going out - because it is not moderated by social factors. Alcohol poisoning has become a big issue because the behavior has been driven underground.
I don't think most college students
By sheenaspleena - 8/22/08 - 10:35 pm
who live on a campus *have* a car.
I think alcohol poisoning and being scared to get your roomie medical attention for fear of getting in trouble yourself are bigger issues.
Falling while drunk, walking on T tracks, and puking/peeing in public are more drunk college kid issues.
Didn't work before
By merlinmurph - 8/20/08 - 8:10 am
I'm going to guess that most of those who favor lowering the drinking age weren't around in the 70's when it was 18. It didn't work very well then (I was there...) and won't work any better now. The argument goes that 18-20 year-olds will be more responsible if the age gets lowered, and I just don't see it. It will just make booze more readily available to an age group that is essentially irresponsible.
Now, before you get all huffed up about that last statement, think about it. 18-20 is a great age, most kids have no responsibilities except to show up at class, maybe have a part-time job for fun money, or whatever. Yes, there's a select few of you that help support your family, volunteer, get married, etc., but I'm not talking about you.
I agree that, theoretically, 18 is the right drinking age. Realistically though, it doesn't work.
The only thing that makes me second guess myself is that punishment these days is much more severe than the 70's, and possibly, that would be a good enough deterrent to irresponsible drinking. If you got caught driving drunk in the 70's, generally all the cop did was ask your friend to drive. Really. Today, there's tough laws, field measurement systems, video, etc., that can really nail you if caught drinking and driving.
Making the drinking age 21
By mmurph - 8/20/08 - 9:18 am
Making the drinking age 21 has pushed the 18-20 year olds to house parties to drink. This is much worse for a number of reasons. Disturbing the peace of residential neighborhoods. Lack of supervision from bar staff to cut you off and bouncers to stop trouble. Limitations on dangerous drinking games, keg stands, funnels, etc etc. I'd even say public drinking has less potential for sexual assaults.
Make the drinking age 18, put bars on college campuses, and institute harsher penalties for driving drunk.
I think you also forget that
By ShadyMilkMan - 8/20/08 - 9:31 am
I think you also forget that a beer at a house party , versus a beer at a bar has a much different price tag. College students at that age are looking to get drunk, or at least get a buzz and since most of them are not rolling in dough they look for the cheapest way to do it. You can either go to a bar and get four beers for 24 dollars or spend the same amount and get a case of cheap stuff.
At least among people I know turning 21 and becoming legal doesnt slow down the parties, its graduating from college and getting a real job and being seperated from your friends/enabelers that puts a quick halt to the drunken binges.
Being 24 I can say the
By mmurph - 8/20/08 - 9:40 am
Being 24 I can say the biggest factor for going to house parties after turning 21 was because not all my friends were 21 and couldn't go out. Yes, it would help if bars didn't charge $4-5 for a pint (if you're lucky) of bud light. However, I think most 18-25 year olds (at least those who want to get "trashed" on the weekends) would much prefer going to bars, meeting people, and not destroying their own (or friends property). Besides the common practice is to "pre-game", or get your buzz going before going out so you don't need to put down $100+ everytime you go out.
(My comments are in reference to people living in large cities with access to public transportation (WHY is it not open till at least 2AM?!), cabs, etc. Those stuck in the middle of nowhere have other problems, I suppose.)
Just made me feel old, Im 26
By ShadyMilkMan - 8/20/08 - 9:59 am
Just made me feel old, Im 26 , guess Im not in that 18-25 year old grouping anymore lol.
Im well aware of pre-gaming and that happens even among 26 year olds. If it were true that hitting drinking age would stop over drinking pre-gaming among 21 year olds heading to the bar wouldnt exist.
Therefore
By Gareth - 8/20/08 - 10:01 am
the best way to prevent underage drinking is early admissions? More BAs at 19?
I agree with you that it's not the drinking per se that's a problem. It's the ritualized excessive drinking.
I think one way to merge your house vs bar argument into the lower the drinking age argument is that underage people are more likely to drink at house parties, where excessive drinking is common, than at bars. Perhaps if they were legal to go to bars they'd drink more moderately, both because of cost and because of environment.
House party scene wouldn't change
By merlinmurph - 8/20/08 - 10:09 am
If the age were lowered, I don't think the house party scene would change a bit - it just makes it easier and semi-legal. Some have already commented to that affect and I'd like to hear from others that are around 21. Maybe I'm wrong, but the drinking strategy is generally 1) get trashed, 2) see what happens next. Just speaking from experience.
I find that I have centered my argument around drinking and driving, which isn't entirely fair as it does ignore the urban scene a bit. Boston has a huge student population, so 18-year-old drinking would definitely change things. This is a state law, though, and young drinkers out in the burbs are a real problem.
You are aware that most of
By RhoninFire - 8/20/08 - 9:43 am
You are aware that most of the world drinking age is 18. The reason in the 70's that lowering didn't work was because people drink and drive then and there is a culture for drinking.
Other countries have the lower drinking age, but the people grew up not find drinking such a big deal either. Unlike here, where making it over 21 have created a culture to circumvent and go for the extreme with binge drinking and other activities that have little other reason to drink so hard except for the culture that so many are doing it which all started for it is banned. In the 70's when it was allowed, the culture of drinking hard and driving have not faded. If you want drinking to decrease, a culture of against drinking have to be created. A law to keep people from drinking, as long there is a desire to do it, it will continue. Ironically, the circumvention creates its own momentum to get people to drink even more.
Much stiffer laws abroad
By merlinmurph - 8/20/08 - 9:52 am
You do realize that penalties abroad for getting caught drunk driving are much more severe than they are here. Our laws, though stiffer than they used to be, are a joke compared to most developed countries.
Yup. What they do in Turkey, for example, if one's caught DUI,
By independentminded (not verified) - 8/20/08 - 12:43 pm
is to make the offending driver get out of his/her car and walk at least 20 miles until s/he has sobered up.
When I talk to my parents
By ShadyMilkMan - 8/20/08 - 9:55 am
When I talk to my parents about their teenage years I hear things like they would go to the beach with a cooler filled with beer, sit on the trunk and drink like crazy, then jump in the car and drive home. I think our drinking culture was around before the drinking age was increased.
I was there
By merlinmurph - 8/20/08 - 10:12 am
No argument here - I was there!
My questions is: Has the culture changed? I think it has changed a little bit, probably not enough though.
Broken link??
By merlinmurph - 8/20/08 - 8:12 am
The link to John Keith's article seems broken
That'll learn me
By adamg - 8/20/08 - 8:24 am
John must've taken that post down. Maybe he decided it wasn't appropriate for a site devoted to selling high-end condos or something.
So, it was the right site
By merlinmurph - 8/20/08 - 8:44 am
I wasn't sure, I didn't see the connection between a real estate site and an article on the drinking age.
Ayup
By adamg - 8/20/08 - 8:46 am
John sometimes comments on non-square-foot issues. And he sometimes then takes those posts down.
See also
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 9:24 am
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Deleting_your_LiveJournal
Back UP!
By JimboJones - 8/20/08 - 9:31 am
Sorry, it's back up.
If a buyer of a high-end condo doesn't like my opinion, well, f-them!
I was drunk when I did it.
http://bostonreb.com/2008/08/19/5357/
Also, I never deleted my account; I know you won't ever believe otherwise. I WENT ON VACATION, IT WAS A JOKE.
It's just too easy
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 11:06 am
:o)
It's true
By JimboJones - 8/20/08 - 1:30 pm
Smilies make everything better!
Ooh! Fun with emoticons!
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 3:47 pm
Hmm, so, John, if I frown at you, will you have a tantrum?
:o(
What if I glare at you? Will you call me names?
>:o\
What would a grin get me? :-D
How about an alligator? >:,,====,,~
Or a cello? @=={==|>>}--
I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS!
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
Salem State College is
By ShadyMilkMan - 8/20/08 - 9:17 am
Salem State College is mostly a dry campus, drinking is only allowed in the dorms on a sattelite campus which is like a mile away from the main campus area, and even then that dorm area is dominated by upperclassmen who are mostly 21 to begin with. 21 year olds living on other parts of the campus are not supposed to have alchahol, so I find it funny the President of that college would sign onto this seeing as her college has a very strict code for current 21 year olds on most of the campus. Nancy Harrington wouldnt have signed onto this lol.
Currently 21 year olds buy for 18/19/20 year olds and not too far below that. At that age most of your friends are going to be over 18 for the most part. If you push that age back to 18, the 18 year olds will turn around and buy for people down to the age of 16 and maybe 15. You will have people still in high school being able to buy liquor, legally (when I was a high school senior I was 17 the whole time but I knew a few kids who turned 18 the summer before, and that was in a non public school, some of my friends went to school with 18 year old juniors.) With our party culture I see things getting ugly.
Good points, ShadyMilkMan.
By independentminded (not verified) - 8/20/08 - 12:54 pm
This:
says it all, in a nutshell, ShadyMilkMan. It's also dangerous because high school kids are still developing physically, and excessive drinking among adolescents has been found to stunt physical growth and development in people that age.
Prove that 21 works
By SwirlyGrrl - 8/20/08 - 9:52 am
Let's take an evidence-based public health approach here, shall we?
That's all the University Presidents are asking. Dialogue based on science and sound research and data, not moralizing and abstinence idealization and neoprohibitionism and all that cultural heresay and baggage.
The US has the highest drinking age of any country that anybody in my international public health community can think of. It also has the worst problems with youth binge drinking. Why is that?
That's all these guys are asking.
Drinking ages around the world
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 11:06 am
The NPR story about this yesterday said that only four countries have a drinking age of 21. I count 13 here though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_age
But yeah, there are public health studies that show that our approach doesn't work. Here, we make teenage drinking just criminal enough that it's taboo and done in secret, but not criminal enough that people abstain out of fear of a major prison sentence or having their hands cut off. In order to be effective, it needs to either be very strictly enforced, or it needs to be approved of. In most of Europe, for instance, it's usual for teens to have a little beer or wine at home before they're of purchasing age. Most of these teens don't grow up to go and binge drink behind a building. By the time they're old enough to be served in a bar, they've already experimented with alcohol during family meals, they know that drinking too much isn't actually fun, and they don't view drinking as a way of rebelling or being wild.
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
Why Not Decriminalize It?
By pahkcah02 - 8/20/08 - 10:49 am
I was a sorority girl at UMass-Amherst and you've got to be a complete idiot to get caught drinking by the state police on that campus. There's so much crazy stuff going on at most colleges that you've got to make a complete a$$ out of yourself to even warrant the attention of an RA, nevermind a state trooper. Since college kids (and non-college kids under 21) are going to drink anyways, why not just decriminalize it? The age to purchase could still be 21 but those under 21 caught drinking would be subject to heavy fines in lieu of arrest. Between court costs and police manpower it costs the state a ton of money to arrest a 19 year old for drinking a Natty Light in public. Tickets handed out like Marlboro Lights at a frat party at several hundred dollars a pop would do more to curb underage drinking than sporadic rap sheets ever could.
instead.....
By pierce - 8/20/08 - 11:14 am
lets raise the age of joining the military and paying taxes to 21. If they are not old enough to figure out how to get a City of Boston recycling bin, they certainly don't belong in a bar or a tank.
Most people under 21 get the
By ShadyMilkMan - 8/20/08 - 11:34 am
Most people under 21 get the majority of their money back in taxes anyway because they dont make alot of money.
I actually disagree, keep the drinking age, drop the voting age to 16. Then the kiddies can help decide if they should be able to drink. Be warned though, only the geeks and dorks would vote at 16 so dont expect it create a wave in support of lowering the drinking age lol.
Ooh! Fun with emoticons!
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 3:46 pm
Hmm, so, John, if I frown at you, will you have a tantrum?
:o(
What if I glare at you? Will you call me names?
>:o\
What would a grin get me? :-D
How about an alligator? >:,,====,,~
Or a cello? @=={==|>>}--
I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS!
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
D'oh, that posted in the wrong spot
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 3:47 pm
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
No, it posted both places
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 3:47 pm
Adam, I think I broke your blog. Sorry about that.
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
That's OK
By adamg - 8/20/08 - 3:51 pm
You can pay for it on the installment plan.
Please
By JimboJones - 8/20/08 - 4:25 pm
Make the lady with the emoticons stop.
:p
Hey John Keith
By eeka - 8/20/08 - 10:00 pm
Don't make me bust out the ASCII art, young man.
http://1smootshort.blogspot.com
Yes!
By BR - 8/21/08 - 11:35 am
//It doesn't make any sense to harp on a kid all the way up until they're 21 - or 18 - about the evils or the dangers of alcohol and then when the clock strikes, and this kid becomes technically legal, to expect him/her to somehow have this magical ability to make a decision about it.//
This is exactly like the argument I always make about people freaking out about premarital sex, so I totally agree.
I think the drinking age should be 19 ... actually, for everything else, too, but that's just me. It's pretty dumb to say "You can die for your country and help pick out a president, but GOD FORBID you have that beer!