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Expert: Buses can beat trolleys, with one exception
By adamg on Thu, 02/26/2009 - 4:53pm
Here's a longish interview with Walter Hook, director of the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy, in which he extols the virtues of "bus rapid transit" systems as being able to provide as good service as trolleys at a fraction of the cost in crowded urban areas.
Well, in most cases:
... Of course, you can mess up a BRT system, and Boston's Silver Line proved that you could waste almost as much money on BRT as you can on a rail system. ...
Via CommonWealth Unbound.
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Comments
Bullflop
He plays really loose and fast with his numbers in support of BRT over light rail or subway. Look at response #11 of the article. He points out that one of his pet projects to describe doubled in cost per mile because of a single expensive interchange. He pans the Silver Line for its cost...but part of its cost were the separate headway tunnels over to the airport and back! Imagine that, burying a few bus roads underwater is expensive! I'm one of the last to defend the Silver Line for what it is, but his criteria for what's "better" and how he factors "costs" seem really out of whack.
Nevermind that improvements to current light rail/streetcar/subway systems would probably outpace the buses over time (seriously, how do you improve or increase bus capacity/speed/etc safely? Compare that to running longer subway cars or using computer controls to pace them closer or installing traffic signal triggers on light rail or improving the ticketing system up to European standards to open more doors, etc.).
there's no separate Silver Line tunnel to the airport!
The Silver Line bus uses the Ted Williams Tunnel, same as any other vehicle does.
Sorry
I was conflating the Phase II tunnels from South Station to Silver Line Way under Fort Point Channel with the one branch that then goes to the airport from SLWay. The point is that a BRT might need its own right-of-way, but it doesn't necessarily need its own tunnels if roadspace can be dedicated towards it...thus preventing the "cost" of the Silver Line from being so outrageous on a per mile basis (and therefore "wrong" according to this guy).
Not forever (maybe)
Check this out.
The hilarious thing is that the time saved from not having to make 300 right turns to get into the Ted Williams Tunnel from Silver Line Way would likely be negated by the miserably slow Silver Line tunnel speeds.
But maybe they'll hire someone who can pave it properly this time.
Massport should be part of the transportation overhaul
It's totally ridiculous that the state would "buy" the Tobin bridge from Massport! Massport should be included in any transportation overhaul/merge. I realize there is some separation needed because of FAA regulations, but it's just moving money from one pile to another.
Buses can pass each other.
Buses can pass each other. Trolleys can not. Stick a bunny in front of a trolley and you service is suspended. Do the same with a bus, and you can easily drive around it.
Unless it is a greyhound bus
A greyhound bus will not go around a bunny. A greyhound bus will chase the bunny.
Not in Massachusetts it won't
Or at least not after Dec. 31, 2009.
bunnys can run
Bunnys can run at 30mph. Much faster than the green line!!
Passing
Buses can't pass traffic. Light rail/streetcars have only cross-traffic to be concerned about. This also means that light rail/streetcars can go as fast as they want between crossings and buses can not.
That is unless you're going to talk about BRT dedicated right-of-ways...at which point you lose your benefit of passing.
BRT
BRT doesnt have to deal with traffic. Its what makes it BRT. Light rail goes as fast as it wants, really? I have some 6mp green line signs to show you.
How does having a dedicated ROW lose the benefits of passing? Unless a train, a bus can pass in the opposing BRT lane whenever it feels like it. We're not talking about a silver line tunnel here, but above ground, separated BRT.
Also, if the trolley tried to run over the bunny it will derail, the electric wiring will be pulled down and service will be suspended for 24 hours while they fix it, and then service will be limited to 4mpg in case of future bunnies.
You hear about rail slowdowns due to safety all the time. When was the last time the MBTA ordered buses to slow down after an accident?
BRT doesnt have to deal with
Go take a look at Phase I of the Silver Line, or the Phase II route after Silver Line way.
True. However the Silver Line averages 12 MPH in the dedicated bus tunnel constructed for it and 15 MPH on the more or less deserted streets of the South Boston Waterfront.
BRT lane? You mean the street? Or the BRT tunnels where you can't do that?
The Silver Line runs under electric wires too, though not the entire length, which it should. The MBTA doesn't like the idea of electric bus routes unless absolutely necessary (read: tunnel). Even the Urban Ring will be diesel powered. Ick.
When it snows, the MBTA keeps the 60' buses home because they can't handle slippery streets all that well (10 jackknifed during a storm a few years back). An entire reserve fleet of 40' buses must be maintained in reserve to handle that. Squeezing a crowd intended for a 60' bus into a 40' bu doesn't usually work out that well.
"The Silver Line runs under
"The Silver Line runs under electric wires too, though not the entire length, which it should. The MBTA doesn't like the idea of electric bus routes unless absolutely necessary (read: tunnel). Even the Urban Ring will be diesel powered. Ick."
The fact that the MBTA has any electric trolley buses left at all and even expanded their use with the South Station-Waterfront Silver Line makes the MBTA unusual in the U.S. You make it seem like use of trolley buses is the norm and the MBTA not expanding them is the exception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_sy...
There are only five U.S. electric trolleybus operators:
MBTA
Philadelphia
Dayton
Seattle
San Francisco
Philadelphia had actually dropped all trolley bus routes, but in the last 2 years bought some new buses and restored a portion of the small network. San Francisco is really the only one where the electric trolley bus makes up a very large part of the system.
Electric trolley bus use worldwide is very spotty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus
Lots of cities in China, Russia, North Korea, and Switzerland, some in Italy, but very few in Germany, none in Australia, Japan, Spain, or the U.K. to name a few
Trump Excuse
BRT supporters are like socialist apologists: "But that's just one poor application of BRT. Real BRT has never been effected, so it's never been proven a failure."
You miss the entire
Arborway, once again, you miss the entire point.
We're talking about conventional BRT, not the silver line. Look at the article youre replying to. BRT good, silver line bad.
And I've seen 60" buses out in the snow. Meanwhile, the e line is stopped at Brigham circle as soon as an inch falls.
Conventional BRT
One of the nice things about the article and its following comments is that it lays out what is needed for real BRT, or what you call convential BRT (although, because it doesn't actually exist anywhere in the US, is anything but conventional).
I've seen real BRT at work. Long buses, dedicated right of way, elevated platform, separate boarding and departure doors, busses hauling ass down their curb-separated lanes. Yes, it works. No, we don't have it. No, we will never have it.
Buses that have to slalom through traffic are not real BRT. Buses that have to stop at stoplights for cross traffic are not real BRT. Buses that go 12 miles an hour through a tunnel are not real BRT. And nobody in Boston has any intention whatsoever of ever installing real BRT here.
Maybe we both have to stop using MBTA as our gold standard
6 mph green line signs? Ha! I can show you STOP signs on the green line that aren't even on a steep grade! (a block inbound past Harvard and Comm on the B Line...stupidest stop signs in the world) My point in saying "as fast as it wants" includes the fact that for safety, etc. they often slow it down (to as fast as they want it to go there). I didn't mean that light rail drivers were given carte blanche to haul ass.
Dude
The trolley would totally just run over th freakin bunny. The difference is that in the bus, you'd feel the bump.