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Is it too early to ask why the T has so many security cameras?

By adamg - 11/10/09 - 12:48 pm

Yeah, it's cool watching the woman fall on the tracks from three different angles (yes, yes, horrifying, but come on, cool, especially with all those moving rectangles). Imagine if there'd been three Zapruders in Dallas that November morning.

But do we really need all those cameras watching us? Brookline fights over a small bunch of cameras and here the T already has enough cameras to do a director's cut of a drunk narrowly avoiding death.

Comments

Don't worry, after a mugger

By Burzmali (not verified) - 11/10/09 - 1:16 pm

Don't worry, after a mugger kills you and tosses your body on the tracks, those cameras will allow the MBTA to circulate grainy black and white images of what he probably looks like!

Tcams

By issacg - 11/10/09 - 1:21 pm

Last week, I rode a green line train equipped with the new cameras on the inside. Two things distrubed me:

1) Presumably, the T has limited camera resources, notwithstanding Adam's prelude. I would not have put the cameras on the Green Line until the other lines, which I believe (without knowing for certain, but I'm sure someone with more time than I have right now will find some stats) have greater instances of crime, were fully equipped.

2) As I realized I was standing directly under the camera, it occurred to me that I should probably not type the email I was considering sending, since the camera was literally only 3 feet away from my phone and could almost certainly discern what was on the screen. This, I believe is a newish and unwelcome development, as most of the cameras that are currently around do not have adquate resolution to do that from their shooting locations. As I said, I think these do.

The Orange Line has had cameras for months now

By adamg - 11/10/09 - 2:25 pm

Not every car yet, but they're no longer that uncommon.

Six cars out of a fleet of

By anon (not verified) - 11/10/09 - 2:52 pm

Six cars out of a fleet of 120 Orange Line cars have the cameras.

Weird

By guitarguynbostontltli (not verified) - 11/12/09 - 11:26 am

Strange that I almost always get those cars.

I noticed the ceilings of the T

By anon (not verified) - 11/10/09 - 1:22 pm

are now plastered with little boxes that I think contain cameras. I hope they are to find and arrest gropers.
RB

Are you kidding me?

By Kaz - 11/10/09 - 1:23 pm

How else can we justify the highest paid public employees in the state (unverified) and raking in millions from the Feds for "Homeland Security" grants?

I mean, if someone's planning on blowing the T up, I *definitely* want footage of it happening to show on the news for the next 3 years as we're reminded why they had dogs sniffing my loafers!

Yes, it's too early...

By anon (not verified) - 11/10/09 - 2:27 pm

As for whether you want Big Brother watching you (pardon the pun), the train has left the station. If you're really intent on staying "off the grid" or whatever, you should probably start by leaving your personal tracking device (aka cell phone) at home. If you're not doing anything on camera that will get you in trouble, they should be no different than having an MBTA police officer (or a concerned citizen with a cell phone) on every platform / vehicle. Would we have a problem with that?

And if you're going to have cameras in a station, you want to have enough of them to cover the whole station (or as much of it as possible). Same goes for the buses and trains. There's not much sense in having a mugging take place off camera stage right or something.

issacg, the green line only

By J - 11/10/09 - 2:27 pm

issacg, the green line only has one car with cameras. More will be added because of money from homeland security next year. Your beef should be with them with for spending our tax dollars this way, not the MBTA. There is no reason for the MBTA to say no to free money, as homeland would just give the money to someone else instead.

Yes, there are a lot of cameras, but so far theyve come in handy. Theyve been used to catch a few gropers (mostly on buses which have more cameras). They were used to determine fault in the bus crash a few weeks ago (the car was 100% at fault). And they could help with other crimes, such as stabbings (which appear to be down this year).

Remember, nobody is watching the cameras, they just record.

Do they make us any safer? No, but they make the cleanup easier.

Ive been to north station many times, and did not notice any cameras. Theyre out of the way and non-intrusive. They dont bother me at all. Nobody bats an eye when every building in this city has cameras in their lobbys, so it shouldnt be an issue on the MBTA.

On that point, it should also NOT be an issue to have cameras monitor cars....(red light, speeding).

Lucky me, J!

By issacg - 11/10/09 - 3:17 pm

Wow, then apparently I found the one Green Line car with the cameras. I should play the lottery.

Suffice it to say that I have more experience with security/surveillance cameras and DHS than most. While I hate the idea that this is where our society has come to, I generally do not object to them in public places where there is bona fide evidence that they may deter unlawful behavior, so long as adequate notice is provided (note: the notice on the Green Line train was wholly inadequate, as it was well below standing eye-level, and behind people sitting in the seat adjacent to it. I did not even notice it until the gentleman sitting there got up.).

Contrary to the assertion, my "beef" *was* with the way the T is spending our tax dollars (whether they come from the state sales tax or our federal income taxes, etc. through DHS). As one of the other commenters pointed out, while no longer uncommon, there are still lots of Oranage Line trains, for example, that do not have cameras. I do not mean to knock the Oranage Line or its riders, but as I said, I think the statistical evidence would show that the rate of crime on the Orange Line is substantially higher than that on the Green Line. I simply want the resources put where they will do the most good, i.e., help solve, and thereby deter, the most crimes.

With respect to the point about no one is watching - the cameras record only, try this on: The recordings are subject to the public records law. The T could conceivably refuse to produce the recordings based on either the "unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" exemption or the "likely to jeopardize public safety" exemption. I have little confidence that they would do either, considering they have already released several videos, and in any event, the withholding of information even under an applicable exemption is at the agency's discretion (but the law favors disclosure). The point is, this video may be available to a much wider range of people than just the T Police or other authorities (some of you, particularly any of you who have had a stalker, might see why this might be undesirable.). The legislature should pass a statute that specifically limits the use of the footage to law enforcement, as they have limited the use of FastLane video to toll enforcement.

I think people often do not complain about cameras in the lobbies of private buildings because most people understand that having their image recorded is part of the deal when going into that private facility. As to the red light controversy, well, I think people do not realize how often their car's image is recorded (e.g., if you drive on a limited access highway around Boston, it is recorded a lot).

and oh yeah...

By issacg - 11/10/09 - 3:20 pm

I should add that it is not only people who are doing things that are illegal that might not want their image or that of their cell phone recorded and available. Ever dealt with something you or your boss might consider confidential business information on your blackberry/iPhone/PDA? Tell the truth.

Confidentiality?

By anon (not verified) - 11/10/09 - 4:48 pm

If you're that concerned about the confidentiality of the business you're conducting, I would recommend not conducting it on a train platform or a subway car... Your boss would probably agree.

The bigger concern there should be the nosy guy sitting next to you, not the remote possibility that the MBTA is going to release video of you to.... whoever it is you think they're going to release it to for.... whatever reason you think someone would want it....

Test Program

By HenryAlan - 11/10/09 - 4:49 pm

The cameras on the one GL car are part of a test program, along with the cameras on all the other lines. Don't you think it makes sense to run a comprehensive test, using all systems? Since no single line is immune to crime, why signal out just one? I know, lets blanket the Orange and Red Lines, then watch people flip out because the MBTA didn't put cameras in a Green Line train where a stabbing or rape has occurred.

I don't know whether cameras are effective or necessary, but I would hope that whatever efforts the 'T makes on crime can be applied system wide, since there is potential danger system wide.

The Orange Line goes under

By anon (not verified) - 11/10/09 - 2:51 pm

The Orange Line goes under the Charles River after leaving North Station at that end. Underwater crossings seem to get more attention camera wise than other locations.

Not to mention ...

By SwirlyGrrl - 11/10/09 - 3:18 pm

That particular North Station Orange Line tunnel crosses under an area with a major arena, a major highway, a major rail station ...

I don't mind..

By polarbare - 11/10/09 - 3:07 pm

the security cameras on the T, as long as their employees are made aware of the fact that I can legally use my camera down there as well.

Excellent point.

By Spatch - 11/11/09 - 9:28 am

Well played.

What's too many?

By merlinmurph - 11/10/09 - 3:57 pm

If you accept the presence of video cameras for security purposes, I don't understand the concern over "too many". Aside from money issues, how many is too many?

What's the sense of having one camera at a station that can only view 10-20% of the platform? If you're going to do security, do it right, or don't do it at all.

Here's a scenario: Suppose we had just one camera on a T platform that had a limited view. Someone gets raped. We go to the tapes, but don't see anything because the rape was out of the view of the camera. So now everybody, including a number of UHubbers, start chastising the T and it's inadequate security system. You can't win.

Actually, there were indeed

By anon (not verified) - 11/11/09 - 4:55 am

Actually, there were indeed at least three films of the Kennedy assassination.

The T cameras are typical for that incompetent organization. They have videotape of everything bad that happens, and no police or employees to actually stop any of it. It's hilarious that T employees are getting awards out of this accident. As usual, it was riders hurting themselves and helping themselves.

T cameras

By anon (not verified) - 11/11/09 - 4:51 pm

Well these cameras are only useful if law enforcement isn't too lazy to use them.
My house got broken into last year and my credit card stolen. When I called my bank, they told me that the card had been used at a charlie card machine at orient heights. I passed this info along to the detective who was handling things and he never did anything with that info. Maybe I am simplifying things (and making an assumption that they have cameras set up facing their charlie card machines), but couldn't he have made a call to the MBTA police and gotten a snap shot from that stations cameras at the time the transaction occurred? I guess my home invasion wasn't important enough to warrant the effort....

Don't worry, they won't work for long.

By Route 66 - 11/11/09 - 4:56 pm

All the trains and buses on the Muni system here in SF are supposedly equipped with cameras but few are actually operable. The Authority came under fire in mid-September when an 11 year-old boy, traveling to school on the bus alone for the first time, was stabbed repeatedly by an unknown vagrant who then proceeded to waltz off the bus unimpeded. The child almost didn't make it. The perp is still at large.

As it was explained to me, the cameras were never about stopping crime on patrons but rather to record potential assaults against Muni operators.

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