Charley on the MTA writes:
... Regardless of your stance on illegal immigration, the stories of the feds' actions are really pretty repulsive -- splitting up families, separating a mom from her 7-month-old baby. Come on. There's got to be a better way to do this. ...
Comments
At least they got the exploiters, too
The silver lining in all of this is that four sweatshop greedstained scumbags got nailed in the raid as well. I hope they all rot in jail, and that MA and OSHA levies stiff fines on their arses as well.
It makes me sad that people have to work and live like this, and are now being given the bum's rush. However, they are also grown adults who can make decisions - like deciding not to bring their children to a country they have no legal right to be in.
There has to be a better way - but a better way does not cast these workers as if they are powerless children themselves. They had to be aware that there are serious risks of coming here to work illegally. I sincerly doubt they were that naive about the explotation potential or the risk of being deported. If they still found those risks worth it given their circumstances, it is sad, but they still came anyway.
I would like to see the INS stop being so punitive toward otherwise employed and law-abiding people and start immigration programs that are liberal in their inclusion of people but tough in terms of their demands for progress over time. For example, if you want to come to the US to live and work for more than a temporary amount of time (say, two years), you need to stay employed, make progress in learning English, show increasing knowledge of how to live in a law-based society (e.g. no driving without a license, kids go in carseats, sensitivity to a different culture) or maybe living here isn't for you. You can come from somewhere, so long as you understand you are not there anymore. I think the Dutch have it right in that regard.
let the workers stay; throw the INS agents in jail
Anyone who gets here and manages to get a steady job should be allowed to stay here. These workers were doing no harm to anyone.
Local police departments should not cooperate with the INS thugs in any way.
INS Agents were doing their job
The INS agents were doing their jobs. They did a great job closing down an illegal sweatshop sucking US tax dollars to cheat employees out of fair wages. I do agree with the "gainfully employed" piece, however - come here, work hard, and you get to stay.
Perhaps it is those INS jobs that should change. I would like to see the INS become more of a probationary support agency than a punitive enforcement agency. Too many people come here, get dropped on the street, find an enclave, and don't go anywhere from there. It would be nice to see INS turned into a follow-up agency that made sure immigrants are learning English, learning about US culture and the rule of law, staying employed, and are being treated fairly (and understand their rights to and how to access programs). Require regular meetings with your agent for support, assistance, and follow up.
Keep making progress and you get to stay longer. Get in legal trouble, keep missing your appointments, neglect the building of your language skills and cultural/social/legal knowledge, well, maybe the US isn't for you. There are enough people trying to come to this country that we might as well let more of them in for a time, but get picky about who gets to stay on.
the Stasi were doing their job, too
but that doesn't mean it's a job that should be done at all.
I like your idea, but it would mean firing all the current INS thugs and replacing them with an army of social workers. Different skill set entirely.
No, still closer to thugs
You wouldn't be able to hire social workers to do the job of insisting that everyone speak English and practice American culture (nevermind that modern-day American culture is that of immigrants from all over). The NASW code of ethics has a very central premise of valuing diversity, including language diversity and cultural practices. It's not the practice of social workers to impose values. Social workers encourage people to achieve what's meaningful and functional for them. This country doesn't have an official language, and it's very possible to live a productive and full life here without speaking English, or speaking much English.
All the easier to exploit them that way
How about this:
You come here from a lawless country. Don't bring your attitude toward the rule of law or your extreme predjudices with you, your own intolerance of diversity, or you will be sent back.
Valuing diversity does not mean gay bashing. It does not mean twenty unrestrained children in a car without seatbelts. It does not mean sympathy for people who don't understand that they can't threaten cyclists with their vehicles because that's what they did wherever they come from. It does not mean wandering aimlessly across a major highway or slowing slightly while running a red light. Nor does it mean forcing your wife to go to church and never learn English because it's easier to beat her to a pulp that way, or pulling your daughter out of school, or feeling free to sexually harass any woman who dares walk down the street. Furthermore, it means your kids MUST go to school - just because he's 14 doesn't mean he's an extra paycheck in your pocket (YES I'VE SEEN ALL THIS).
Sorry if that doesn't jibe with your roses and sweetness life of diversity. The more English you learn and sooner, the harder you are to exploit and the more money you will make. It doesn't have to be the official government language to be the official language of government and employment. That's why all the clerks at McDonalds don't speak English any more, nor do the cleaners of offices or other lowest paid jobs.
There are also laws here that have nothing to do with "diversity" and everything to do with safety and tolerance of a multicultural society. If you can't take two men kissing, leave. These are cultural issues having to do with living in a modern society. If you can't negotiate them given time, you don't belong here. If you can, you should be allowed to stay and thrive and make it to citizenship - and you HAVE to understand English to get there, too. Is that a bad thing?
All those behaviors you've
All those behaviors you've mentioned happen from English-speaking American citizens who have never left the country as well. How should they be re-educated?
Spend some time ...
I'm not sure what world you live in, but the canned "celebrate diversity" talking points get pretty boring. Somehow, I don't think you've had much contact with those lovely impoverished pockets of Lowell, Lawrence, Somerville or even the Boston end of Broadway. It isn't just the poverty - it is the vast cultural differences between people who come from cultures vastly more saturated in homophobia, "rights" to spousal abuse, and all of the lovely fallout from total collapse of the rule of law in their environments.
Put your kid in a daycare where there are very agressive children who don't get the counseling they need because they see their fathers beat their mothers into submission on a daily basis. Watch those same fathers threaten the daycare folk for referring the mothers to ESL classes held while head start is in session. Watch your frustrated husband relate tales of high school students told that they better go out and get into fights or they will be thrown out because only fags don't get in fights and fags aren't allowed to live at home.
Ever see a 13 year old with pregnancy complications because her parents pulled her from school and illegally married her to a 17 year old so she could be raped repeatedly (statutorially or otherwise) rather than risk her getting involved in consensual teenage sex?
Oh but white native-born citizens do it too - they just are considered dysfuntional and needing of services and consequences, rather than getting a pass because they are just doing something that is pervasive in their native culture? Wrong.
You make it way too easy to make arguements for withholding support services that bring about an understanding of life where things are different, all because it treatens diversity. As my mother used to say "don't be so open minded that your brains fall out".
I'm pretty sure I said
I'm pretty sure I said nothing about "white" in my comment, and I'm absolutely certain I didn't say these behaviors were OK coming from anyone under any circumstances. Your comment read as though you were fine with this whole raid because some immigrants don't know how to behave in America.
My point was that it isn't only illegal immigrants who engage in inappropriate behaviors (to put it mildly); legal immigrants and native-born Americans do as well. It seemed that you want to hold illegal immigrants to a higher standard than other people, and if I'm mistaken about that, then I misunderstood and I apologize.
All the examples you've cited constitute abuse. Abusive behavior should not be tolerated from anyone, but it's possible to respect cultural differences without condoning abuse.
A book called "The Spirit Catches You And You Fall Down" is on my reading list. It has to do with a child with epilepsy born into a Hmong family, and the effects that cultural differences have on her. You might want to read it, if you haven't.
it is repulsive
i agree, it is repulsive. the should be reunited - back in their country of origin.
Get rid of them
Why should we allow people to disregard the laws of this country? They chose to come here without following the rules of immigration and they got what they deserve. If they had done it correctly and legally, then it would not be a problem.
Kick them and their children back to where they belong.
Why are you so eager to kick
Why are you so eager to kick people who have little to begin with. It sounds like you have some misplaced anger.
The thing to remember is that many of their kids are right where they belong, they were born here, they are as American as anyone born here to American parents.
Deporting these women wont solve any problems, wages will not go up, crime will not go down, nothing will change. Until working Americans demand to be treated better by their employers it will not happen.
And being fooled into thinking that immigrants are the source of all problems and will be the downfall of the nation is such a cliche its a surprising that people continue to play into it.
What part of "illegal" don't people understand?
il·le·gal /ɪˈligəl/ Spelled Pronunciation[i-lee-guhl]
–adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute.
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.
–noun 3. Informal. illegal alien.
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[Origin: 1620–30; < ML illégÄlis. See il-2, legal]
—Related forms
il·le·gal·ly, adverb
—Synonyms 1. unlawful; illegitimate; illicit; unlicensed. Illegal, unlawful, illegitimate, illicit, criminal can all describe actions not in accord with law. Illegal refers most specifically to violations of statutes or, in organized athletics, codified rules: an illegal seizure of property; an illegal block (in football). Unlawful means not sanctioned by or according to law: an unlawful claim to the inheritance; to take unlawful advantage of the trading situation. Illegitimate means lacking legal or traditional right or rights: an illegitimate child; illegitimate use of privileged knowledge. Illicit, which originally meant simply “not permitted,†now most often applies to matters regulated by law with specific emphasis on the way things are carried out: illicit conversion of property; an illicit attempt to control the market. Criminal most often refers to violation of the statutes of penal as opposed to civil law. All felonies are criminal as are all crimes sometimes punishable by death such as murder, arson, and kidnapping: a criminal act.
Wow, A Dictionary Definition
Well, you know how I hate people from other countries--remember this definition of oats from my dictionary? Oats: "a grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people." Not bad, if I say so myself.
But using a dictionary definition and thinking it suffices for an argument? Poor Mr Weebles. Apparently all of that book learning hasn't made him any smarter. I think people understand "illegal" perfectly well but they also understand that separating mothers from their children is bad policy. I bet Mr. Weebles thinks one of those icky illegal people broke into his truck. Is that it Mr. Weebles? I'm sure Mr. Weebles checks into the employment status of anyone he buys goods or services from just to make sure they're not using any illegals. You can't be too careful you know.
And by the way, I didn't see "treat people like shit" in the definition of illegal.
Is it alright for a mother
Is it alright for a mother to shoplift and ask for a press conference to be released because her kids are at home? illegal is illegal.
Bad Analogy
I have a hard time with this analogy. When there is shoplifting, there is a clear victim. Where there are illegal immigrant workers being imported on this scale to work on government contracts requiring "domestic manufacture, who is victimized by whom?
The US taxpayer is being victimized by the manufacturer, who agreed to manufacture in the US and create jobs with fair wages and legal working conditions available to people who are legally here. The employer chose to import a third-world sweatshop complete with the illegal workers so he could pocket the profits. These people stole nothing from us - in fact, they are extremely incidental to the real crime.
These people agreed to come here - they are legally responsible adults. But it isn't shoplifting - their employer stole from them (illegal working conditions and pay) and stole from US too.
I didn't realize we were
I didn't realize we were taking shoplifters to the airport and sending them to Texas for their hearings, thus separating mothers and children. But hey, nice try with the crappy analogy.
What Part Of "Compassion" Don't People Understand?
Compassion - The humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it.