When evangelicals attack

OK, you expect this sort of thing west of the Berkshires, but Cambridge? Mike Daisey is performing a monologue at ART - Yes, the American Repertory Theatre, in Cambridge - when something like 90 evangelical Christians stage a protest that includes pouring water on his performance notes as they all walk out:

More from Daisey.

Comments

Hi Mark.

Thank you for your courage in standing up to the bullies. And thank you again for your graceful and moving account of the 'protest' - really more like an assault. Please continue to trust us as we work together to rid our country of this kind of hate.

Ah, lovely, the ole "persecution complex"...

It's not enough to dislike something. These people have to go to it, be "shocked, shocked" at the presence of the thing that offends them, and feel righteous and put-upon, and THEN walk out. And not only walk out, but violate someone else's free speech in the process. Why can't people just NOT WATCH something?

I mean, they obviously had heard about the content of the monologue. 4 years out of high school, I can verify that you don't organize 87 people in a school group to go to something without heavily vetting it in the first place. This kind of organized, self-righteous, prideful and narcissistic intolerance makes me so crazy. It's the ugliest possible side of organized religion. Or organized social anything, really.

Keep on keepin' on, Mr. Daisey. Speak proudly against the modern Philistines.

Glad the guy had the courage to stand up to the bullies

who disrupted his performance and poured water all over his scripts, or whatever. Sadly, the fact that it happened in a place like Cambridge, of all places, underscores the fact that no community is immune to this sort of hateful attack. If people want to just walk out, and/or not watch something, that's one thing, but the protesters went too far, imo.

I'm a little unclear about what is objectionable...

I'm a little behind on my ARTs weekly.

So is the content of the play objectionable beyond the use of a the F bomb? Or is it really because of the F bomb?

I didn't know that was a thing to protest about. Maybe those people don't ride the T.

According to Daisey

He'd just finished a bit about having sex with Paris Hilton.

A class act.

Mike's reaction to the walk-outs was very, very classy. I have much respect for him trying to engage them in SOME kind of dialogue, and mentioning that he even could do so without resorting to profanity. The fact that they walked out without so much as even giving some kind of mission statement is disturbing and shows a complete lack of conviction and follow-through on their part.

It didn't look to me like they'd planned on destroying his notes, though. It just looked more like a "Let's upset him by having half his audience get up and leave" thing than a "Let's get rid of his work" and the kid who did it got caught up in the moment and thought he'd improvise a little. Still, he was a complete and utter jackass, and I hope he's good and proud of himself for behaving like a good Christian and baptizing the desk and papers instead of non-destructively proving a point.

I do have one question, though. Since the group didn't say boo and they didn't respond to Mike's offers to sit down and talk and I have yet to hear about any group of people who've started crowing about how they sure showed that foul-mouthed guy from New York a thing or two, how do we know they were "evangelical Christians?" They could have just as easily been any other group of Concerned Busybodies and I hope they identify themselves soon.

John Hodgman comments

Light dawns over Marblehead

Ahhhh. In the comments, Mike explains things a bit further with regards to the box office numbers and the advance reservations. The group really was a travelling Christian school group who randomly chose Daisey's show for a Thursday evening's entertainment while here in the Big Blue Enclave.

So it appears the walkout wasn't premeditated, it wasn't conceived as a protest or an attack; the group legitimately decided "this is not for us, let's get out of here." Okay, that's well within their rights and goes directly with what some have been saying all along: "If you don't like it, then don't watch it." They didn't like it, so they chose not to watch it.

But then up came the jackass who thought it'd be fun to pour water everywhere. And that's when it turned from a simple display of dissatisfaction with the artist and the material into an actual attack on the artist and the material.

Someone owes Mike Daisey a big apology, and as I mentioned above, the rest of us owe Mike Daisey big ups for handling the situation as he did.

The person(s) who did the vandalizing of Mike Daisey's artwork

deserve a swift kick in the pants, imo.

I think the real term for it is assault

It's up to him, but I think he would be well within his rights to press charges if he so chose. Of course there would be the "martyred victims of the (presumed) war on Christians" b.s. to contend with.

As Mike Daisy himself put it,

the protesters who did what they did and then refused to stay and have any discussion/dialogue afterwards were just a bunch of cowards, plain and simple.

Could someone be prosecuted for this?

Disrupting a theatrical performance may or may not be an arrestable offense, but surely destroying the performer's property is.

Anyone care to share the

Anyone care to share the name of the traveling school/organization? They definitely should be held publicly accountable for an act of vandalism and disrespect like this.... And that "kid" that poured water looks about 40 years old.

Where the Daisey haters were from

Geoff Edgers gets the scoop, in an e-mail interview with Daisey: A visiting Christian choral group from Norco, Calif.

And it all probably would never have made it much beyond the theater had that one guy not taken the extra special step of pouring water on Daisey's notes - it's not like people have never walked out of a performance they didn't like before. What a dipstick (or words to that effect).

So, the troublemakers were from out of state.

big deal. It seems like the chaperone(s) who were with the protesting members of the audience didn't really want to do anything to stop it.

Doubtful this was an act of evangelicals.

As one who is definitely evangelical, and who had done outreach for years, i have a very hard time believing that such an act was done by a real evangelical Christian, and if it was then it certainly does not typical such. Most members of evangelical churches actually do little in the way of taking moral stands or evangelism, and those true ones that do are most always moved by genuine concern for people's souls as well as there temporal well-being, and are committed to non-violence in regard to that. However, the cause of those who oppose Biblical morality is best served by finding a few Westboro baptist (Kansas) types to characterize them by, rather than the multitude of church groups that have and are helping Katrina victims. And while i oppose things like homosexuality, i would help anyone who disagrees just as i would one who agrees, even as i seek the salvation of all by repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. Thanks for reading.

*looks at website* *is dazed

*looks at website*

*is dazed by colors*

*looks again* Salvation...is funny?

Opposing things like homosexuality.

i oppose things like homosexuality

You might as well oppose left-handedness or baldness or shortness, buddy. We're all as God made us.

Civil rights versue moral wrongs

Perhaps you honestly see it that way, but such a reply is another manifestation of the confusion that promotion of homosexuality relies upon. Such things as being left handed or bald or the color of one's skin are a-moral attributes - they are not causative of harmful behavior. However, the homosexual lifestyle manifestly is, and together with illicit drug use and heterosexual promiscuity over a half a million Americans alone have died of AIDs. And though we are all born with the proclivity to sin - and i think some more in one manner than another - we cannot justify sinning on that account, as we need not yield to sin but can overcome evil with good, by God's grace.

Deleterious health issues (which the Bible records were the result of homosexual activity: Rm. 1:27) are not the primary thing that makes men laying with men as with women wrong, but God has made man men and women uniquely compatible and complementary in more ways than just physical (though that ought to be the most obvious). Thus what God has uniquely joined let no man put asunder, and what He has put asunder (sexually) man is not to put together. The Bible warns that the widespread practice of sodomy foretells the demise of any great nation.

I would ask those who think that the Bible teaches otherwise to please see the pages on homosexuality at peacebyjesus.com and it is in Jesus that we find salvation from all our sins. Thanks be to God.

This is a vere long comment

Please define, if you will, the phrase "homosexual lifestyle".

I also notice that you, like so many others, seem to be very concerned with men laying with men and not so much with women laying with women. Why is this?

As for Romans 1:26-28, there are, of course, multiple interpretations. Here's one (not mine, as I am not a theologian):

26-27 Another interesting point to consider is that people often use verses 26-27 to prove that Paul used an argument from "nature" to prove that homosexual activity was wrong. However that kind of usage of the word "nature" is highly unlikely as Paul usually uses the word "nature" or "natural" to mean not what "Mother Nature" does but instead he means "the previously accepted common usage". Nature is not a great teacher about ethics and humans are nowhere called in scripture to emulate it. What is more, homosexual activity DOES go on in the animal world.

It must be remembered also that Paul was referring to homosexual ACTS, not homosexuals. AND NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS PAUL WAS TALKING ABOUT... NO ONE KNOWS THE BACKGROUND... We must ask ourselves "what type of homosexual acts was Paul talking about?" Was he talking exclusively about homosexual acts connected with idolatry? (Perhaps that was the only kind of homosexual activity he was familiar with.) Was he talking about pederasty? Was he talking about homosexual acts committed with slaves? Was he talking about people of heterosexual orientation committing homosexual acts? Just exactly what type of homosexual acts was he concerned with? Do people have the right to just ASSUME that these verses were a blanket condemnation of homosexual sex in every context?

In my personal opinion Paul was referring to same sex sexual acts committed in idolatrous worship by people he regarded as heterosexual. Even the most conservative theologian can only give their opinion as to what type of same sex acts Paul was referring to. No one can state that God clearly condemns all homosexuality activity based upon these verses. It is just too vague.

from whosoever.org

Re: Long Comment

i can see this is turning in to a thread, albeit a timely one.

By “homosexual lifestyle” i mean the sexual activities which homosexuals engage in, and though i referred primarily to men, it also refers to women.

Regarding your (pasted) argument against the condemnation of of homosexual acts in Rm. 1, i am not a formally trained Theologian either, but this is one which i deal with in http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/homosexual_refuted.html, as are many of the issues in the next post.

As for the argument that what the writer meant by the word nature was “the previously accepted common usage” or accepted societal norms, neither the context nor the grammar allows such a simple rendering. While the author of your argument declares that “nature” meant “previously accepted common usage, “ a study of the Greek word “phusis” [5449] in Romans reveals nature to mean that which Gentiles did when acting in accordance with God's law (Rm. 2:14, 27), or that it would be contrary to design for a tree that was wild by nature to be grafted into a good olive tree (Rm. 11:24), though spiritually this was possible. In 1Cor. 11:4 it refers to the normal, if not universal natural condition of the animal world, and in Gal. 2:15 it refers to the racial nature of the Jews. In Gal. 4:8 it refers negatively to the intrinsic nature of idols. Likewise in Eph. 2:3 to the sinful nature of man, and positively in 2Pet. 1:4 to th holy nature of God. Here we see that though what man or animal normally does can denote proper function as opposed to aberrations, morality is determined by what God sets down, and not by whatever we feel we would most like to do. No nation has fallen obeying Biblical morality, but the opposite is ultimately true for those who continue in rebellion, and this one will be no different.

The context of Rm. 1:18- 32 is that of perverse and wrong behaviors which are a result – not necessarily just a part of – of idolatry, as from idolatry all sin proceeds. Though Rm. 1:23 uses formal idolatry as an example, what is revealed in Rm. 1 is not simply that which was done religiously, but sins which flows from idolatry in general. And which need not be constructing formal idols, but misconstruing the God of the Bible to sanction sin. Idolatry occurs whenever we put anything, including our own “happiness” or idea of what make right, before what God says. Thus the first commandment is to love God with all we have (Dt. 6:5), manifested in obedience to Him, and then love for others in accordance with God's word (Lv. 19:18).
The practice of working that which is “unseemly” (which word has to do with nakedness in Rv. 16:15) referred to in Rm. 1:27 was consensual homo-sexual activity, not forced rape, and was condemned not because it went against societal norms, but because it was contrary to God's design, which was seen in the intrinsic nature of man as normally manifested, and against which homosexuality militates. The argument that only a specific form of homoeroticism was condemned has no support, as nowhere in Scripture is any homo-sexual activity sanctioned (homosexual eisegesis notwithstanding), in contrast to heterosexual relations which the LORD clearly and abundantly provides for by marriage. Thus all homosexual relations are unholy fornication, which in any case even a motive of love versus lust cannot make right.

(Rom 1:24-27) "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: {25} Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. {26} For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: {27} And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

I'm not going to try to argue the Bible here

...because I won't win. :)

"By “homosexual lifestyle” i mean the sexual activities which homosexuals engage in, and though i referred primarily to men, it also refers to women."

So lifestyle is the same as sex? That's an unusual use of the word.

So all heterosexual people have the same lifestyle, as do all homosexual people, as do all asexual people, as do all polyamorous people etc? If someone isn't having sex with anyone, they don't have a lifestyle?

I'm fascinated to find out that Bill Gates has the same lifestyle as Mike, who lives on the Common. I'll be sure to let Mike know about this.

Let me tell you about my day today.

My sister has been visiting me and my spouse this weekend. This morning, we all went to the library, then my sister and I walked through the Public Garden and the Common while my spouse went ahead and waited for us at Faneuil Hall. I then went to work in the afternoon while my spouse took my sister to the airport.

My spouse worked late, so I came home, cleaned the homestead a little, tended my plants, and made spouse a cheese sandwich. Now we're both computering, and I anticipate bedtime will be early and that we'll both do some reading, me something fantasy, spouse something non-fiction.

My first question to you is: why is this scenario OK if my spouse is male and not if my spouse is female?

My second question to you is: based purely on that scenario, is my spouse male or female?

Intrinsic qualities

I do see homosexuality as intrinsic. And being gay myself, I think I hold more authority on that matter than you do.

Are you right handed? Try writing with your left hand. Tell yourself it's sinful to write with your right hand. You'll see what it is like to try and live in a way contrary to how God made you.

And what's sinful about being gay anyway? Is your problem more with promiscuity, or do you just think same-gender coupling itself is sinful? When I grew up, I was taught this way to determine whether an action is a sin. Is the action one of love, or one of failure to love? My relationship with my husband is one of love.

I think it would be a sin for me to deny my orientation. It would constitute a failure to love myself as I was made. I would be living in defiance of what I know to be my true nature.

As for the Bible, the Bible says a lot of things. Do you regard them all with equal weight? How do you feel when you read the outdated laws? Do you take everything in it literally, or do you see some of it as parable? Do you think every word is divinely inspired, or do you allow that humans may have corrupted some over these hundreds of years? When it contradicts itself, how do you reconcile? How do you feel when you read the bloodthirsty parts? Do you put more faith in the words and deeds of Jesus than in those of the Old Testament or of Jesus' followers, or are they all the same?

RE: Intrinsic qualities

>I would be living in defiance of what I know to be my true nature.

Your true nature is that of a sinful nature, prone to sin, and according to such logic all manner of iniquity can be justified because that is my true nature, some of which would be more immediately felt as harmful while others do so in the long term. Pornography is such a sin.

>As for the Bible, the Bible says a lot of things. Do you regard them all with equal weight?

Yes, in context.

>How do you feel when you read the outdated laws?
The Bible is it's own interpreter. It foretells of a New covenant (Jer. 31:31-33) in which certain type of laws, which it defines (Col. 2:16; Gal. 4:10; Heb. 9:10) as ceremonial, and dietary, and which have spiritual fulfillments under the New covenant (Jn. 1:29; Acts 10:9-16; Gal;. 6:15; Heb. 4:3), versus purely moral laws, which are reiterated under the New covenant. The injunctions against illicit sexual behavior clearly belong to the second category.

>Do you take everything in it literally, or do you see some of it as parable?

In the Bible is it obvious which is which, and when in the latter, in which known physical realities have c
>Do you think every word is divinely inspired, or do you allow that humans may have corrupted some over these hundreds of years?

Yes and no. The Bible is a quality like no other book, revealing both God and man, with the latter's salvation on the formers expense and righteousness supremely manifested in Christ, as well as the corresponding negative consequences for those love darkness rather than light. It did not become the world's best seller because of ecclesiastical decree, but because of it's spiritual quality that gives life to those who receive it's Author, and Heavenly guidance to those who obey Him.

As for the supposed meddling of man, the abundance of ancient extant Biblical manuscripts (far more than any other ancient literature) themselves disallow the charge of the corruption of the Bible. While there are better versus poorer manuscripts, the poorer ones are allowed to co-exist with the the “majority text,” and in any case the differences are rare and relatively insubstantial.
>When it contradicts itself, how do you reconcile?
Almost all asserted contradictions are not, and are easily reconciled upon further research, and problematic passaged make upon an extremely small percentage of Scripture and so not change doctrine, except that of the doctrine of inerrancy, which most hold to refer only to the original autographs. For research on this last 2 questions i would suggest www.christian-thinktank.com or www.tektonics.org among many others. And the page on the Da vinci code on peacebyjesus..com

>How do you feel when you read the bloodthirsty parts?
I take it you mean a few passages that call for the extermination of entire nations? I take it in context, and realize that judgment happens, and that it was not done arbitrarily, but “that the judgment of God is according to truth” (Rm. 2:2) and was and will be warranted and just, after much long suffering by God of deleterious immorality by souls opposing what even they knew at one time was right.
>Do you put more faith in the words and deeds of Jesus than in those of the Old Testament or of Jesus' followers, or are they all the same?

All Scripture given by inspiration of God, (2Tim. 3:16) , though He used certain personal means of expression and their degree of anointing as well as different obvious genres to reveal what we needed to know. The words of Jesus manifested His Divinity in powerful and succinct ways, in which He also promised the rest of the New Testament (Jn. 16:12-14), in which prior revelation said is reiterated, confirmed, expanded upon and explained more fully under the same Spirit of God by which Christ spoke. Pertinent to our subject, by this we see that while Jesus did not/need not address every sin in Scripture, He disallowed fornications (Mk. 7:21; plural) as part of His affirmation of the morality of the Mosaic law, and later that the specific sin of Sodom was “fornication, and going after strange flesh” (Jude v. 7), that of the men which they sought to sexually know (Gn. 19:5-8; cf. Jdg. 19:22-25).

Re: Intrinsic Qualities

I believe the Bible has been perverted throughout time by men who seek to manipulate others and hold power. It's popular not just for its inspiration; it's also popular because you can get away with a whole lot of evil if you claim you're acting in its name. The history of the Catholic Church and of modern-day cults are full of this type of corruption.

Regarding the source texts, there has been plenty of argument throughout that time over which allegedly ancient texts really belong and which don't. There have been plenty of instances of forgery in that time. Aside from all that, there are plenty of issues of translation.

So I can respect the Bible only in that context.

But fortunately we have a gift that allows us to separate the wheat from the chaff. The important messages of the book from the archaic customs that are nothing but relics of that time of history. We each have our own conscience. I trust mine. And I'm prepared to be judged for that, but not by you or other human beings who are not gay. Because what do your consciences really know of being gay? To you it is just an abstraction you're not really interested in anyway. You know nothing of it except that you saw something written somewhere that leads you to believe it's bad.

The Catholic Church used to say that left-handedness was evil, too. If you really want to put yourself in the place of a gay person, imagine yourself as a left-handed person back then. You would know in your heart that this was stupid, but all the people who had no urge to use their left hand would be trying to tell you that you were sinful for it. And of course, eventually everyone--including the church--would come to admit that yeah, it was pretty stupid.

Intrinsic Qualities 3

Dear Bob,
Your first argument sounds like that of the “history” of the Da Vinci code, which is easily shown to be fiction on steroids. That the Bible was perverted by men to say what they wanted it to day (usually only things that are unpopular today) is a wishful charge that cannot stand the test of real examination. As stated before, there is far more manuscript evidence for the Bible than any other ancient texts (the veracity of which is rarely questioned), and reveals very little variance of any real consequence. And many extant manuscripts are scientifically dated prior to church councils such as provided a list of canonical books, and internal evidences also yields a very early date to the New Testament. The first Christians were Jewish, and who were converted by examination of the Scriptures as they realted to the promised Messiah (Is. 53; Micah 5:2 etc.), and the faith and the Bible was quickly spread through Asia, etc, when no institution (unlike Islam) had the power to change all the manuscripts. http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4054.

As for your second argument, it is certainly and sadly true that many misappropriate the authority of God and the Bible to do what they may (and thus use profanity), an while and certainty of belief can be good, claiming authority and substantiating it are two different things. Contrary to popular belief, the Bible is not some nebulous book out which men can build any doctrine they like – unless you ignore the normal rules of interpretation, much of which as we use in everyday conversation. “Cults” are easily shown to be such as they become an authority higher than the Bible, to which they invariably add to and subtract from, and deter objective examination of it. Thus the Jehovah's witnesses can be expelled for going to Christan bookstores, Mormons lose their salvation if they leave their church, and Rome committed it's crimes by keeping the masses ignorant of the Bible (most still are), and making extra Biblical revelations equal to the Bible. And if the theory of Bible corruption is true, then they did a very poor job, as on almost chapter of the Bible there is found something Rome has neglected or corrupted.

Regarding the issue of debate as to what books were canonical, this effectively relates to very few of the Biblical books, and the popularity of the 66 of the “Protestant Bible” (even Rome uses one in it's catechism) versus available additional books, are not due to ecclesiastical decree, any more than the making the NY Times best seller list actually makes it a best seller, rather those who have “tasted and seen that the LORD is good” by being born of His Spirit affirm the menu by their desire for the bread of life. This is far more the reason for it's historical popularity than because it affords a few to do what they desire by misusing it, and such as seriously do so can easily be shown to be in error by honest systematic examination of the Bible itself.

As for your doctrine of self authority, it is normally good that we want to obey our conscience, but to finally base what is right and wrong simply upon our own conscience is very dangerous. The legacy of those who did so is worse than those who misused the Bible, as by acting out of this atheistic non-foundation Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. murdered their millions. (Jer 17:9). "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Prov 12:15) "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise."

Finally, your equating of homosexuality with being left handed which unlike homosexual relations is not a harmful behavior, is perverse (see one of my previous responses). And helps reveal that self as a final moral authority is dangerous.

(Psa 118:8) It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." (Rom 10:9) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Homosexual behavior, by

Homosexual behavior, by which I assume you mean sex and not, say, a gay guy's brushing his teeth and cooking breakfast, is not inherently harmful.

Unprotected sex is potentially harmful. Promiscuous sex is potentially harmful. Unprotected promiscuous sex is probably going to be harmful no matter who is involved. Non-consensual sex is by definition harmful.

A couple grown women who want to hook up and do so with the use of the appropriate protection? Doesn't harm me. How does it harm you?

How does the fact that Bob (for example) is gay affect you personally? How does the fact that he has a husband affect you?

I think judgment should be left between an individual and his or her deity. Don't you think it's the height of arrogance to assume to speak for G-d? Why are you as a fellow mortal sinful human even involved in telling Bob, me, or anyone else what G-d thinks?

homo-sexual behavior.

>Homosexual behavior, by which I assume you mean sex and no..<

Yes, by homosexual activity i mean homo-sexual, and not only is ppromiscuous sex harmful, but sexual relations that are contrary to the Creators design is in the long term deleterious to individual and society. History has and will prove that, as the social experimentation based upon the darkened and depraved belief bears it's fruit.

>Don't you think it's the height of arrogance to assume to speak for G-d? Why are you as a fellow mortal sinful human even involved in telling Bob, me, or anyone else what G-d thinks?<

I think it is a height of arrogance as well as ignorance to propagate that the Creator who made such an infinitely complex creation in which man is the main recipient, and has physical laws to govern it, gave no laws by which we are to be governed. And since the Bible, by itself and as a whole, has proven be the Divinely transcendent material source of salvific truth and beneficial morals, i think you are being arrogant and hurtful by supplanting it with your own finite authority of changeable morality.

The present destructive effects of the latter, which includes more than what can be quantified (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html) are almost completely preventable by abiding by God's good laws which govern how we should use the good things He has given us.

And as eternity offers two contrasting realities, determined by one do es with the Christ of the Bible, so seek they salvation of all.but which requires we admit what sin is, and which includes practicing homo-sexuality.

Homo hyphen sexual?

Putting aside for a minute the fact that no one else's relationships affect you in the least...

If a same-sex couple doesn't engage in sexual activity, is their relationship thereby acceptable to you?

If so, then which is more of a perversion? That a couple of people love each other, or that you go around asking people whether they have sex with one another?

If not, then what exactly is unacceptable about it? Does your interpretation of the Bible outlaw love?

What's with the hyphen?

Its not enough to use clinical words to refer to the gays, you have to be sure to emphasize the HOMO in "homo-sexual"?

You can be pissed that some fellow evangelicals gave your faith a bad name, but that's not what upsets you. Instead, you deny what actually happened and prefer to blame the darn secularists for giving your faith a bad name. And that, sir, is what so many darn secularists have issues with evangelicals. Because they are always imagining great conspiracies to oppress them instead of taking responsibility for their own actions or for the actions of their fellow church members.

I've had evangelical friends. Most are really good and sincere people. I am not a person of faith, but I have great respect for people who are. However, I cannot ignore that many of those good and sincere people don't speak out against those voices of hate and intolerance who operate under the banner of evangelism. If you have an issue with the perception of evangelicals, take it up with the people who create that perception. Because when those of us outside your church see the silence that meets expressions of hostility and contempt, it confirms that perception.

What's with the hyphen?

Dear BStu, The hyphen was to emphasize sexual, not homo, as the context indicates.

And i did not deny what happened, but that

"i have a very hard time believing that such an act was done by a real evangelical Christian, and if it was then it certainly does not typical [of] such."

My statements on secularism do not disallow placing blame when it is due, and my mention of Westboro Baptist types was because in reproof of them. However, this type of "evangelical" is rare, those it is basically used to characterize the whole, while the reality is that Christians who dare express sincere disagreement with homosexuality are typically the ones that cannot be tolerated and who must be censured.

You haven't been censured.

You've been argued with.

But that's what happens when you try to publicly pass moral judgment on other people and they disagree.

He's been censured now!

Bob, I'm tired too of the evangelicals who express judgments about aspects of other people that don't affect them in the least, then cry victimization when people stand up and ask them to stop it.

But hey, despite the "victimize me so I can whine about it" angle, Daniel has a point. He does deserve to be censured. Every person who spreads this kind of "disapproval" of our GLBTQetc brothers and sisters is to blame for hate crimes, lack of equal access to employment and healthcare, and families disowning their members. Every time someone hears these ridiculous comments and doesn't stand up and tell the person that it's offensive and hurtful to pass judgments on people who don't affect them, it contributes to these problems. The only way we get rid of discrimination is for people to speak up, every time. So yes, consider yourself censured.

A river in Egypt

You say you didn't deny what happened. You simply have a "very hard time believing" what happened. Semantics, much? When confronted with evangelicals behaving badly, you responded with disbelief rather than refuting those evangelicals. You offer a text book example of why people would conclude that such actions do represent evangelicals as a whole. Rather than complain about imagined conspiracies to censure Christians, take responsibility for your faith and rebuke those who preach hate in its name. The problem isn't just the hate that is expressed. Its the lack of response from other evangelicals to that hate. That is what you need to take responsibility for, instead of just not believing it when an evangelical does something hostile and intolerant.

And you'll also need to get used to no one feeling the need to respect intolerance of gays. I'm not "censuring" you, but I'm not going to agree with you, either. If you can't handle that, its not my problem. You have every right in the world to not be gay and no one should tell you that you have to be gay. The issues in public debate are the rights of gays and lesbians to have equal access to civil institutions as straight people. No one is forcing evangelicals to perform or even attend a gay wedding. But your right to your beliefs shouldn't supercede someone else's right to live their private lives as they see fit.

Homo-sexual behavior

>Homosexual behavior, by which I assume you mean sex and not..<

Yes, by homosexual behavior i mean that of sexual activity between homosexuals, which perhaps could be better termed homo-eroticism, as it refers to same gender sex. Promiscuous sex as well as homosexual relations is harmful, and not simply because of that which can be more immediately quantified. Homo-sexual activity not only makes a mockery of God's design which it is obviously contrary to physically, but has long term detrimental efects as it perverts the unique complementary and compatibility between man and women. Ultimately, any disobedience to God's laws is harmful to both individual and society, though the effects are most often not always immediate felt. History reveals that a nation benefits or eventually suffers insomuch as they give obey Biblical principals and precepts, even if they are not Christian. And the widespread practice of homosexuality marks the decline of a nation, which is were we are at now. Write me back in about 20 years if you disagree.

>Don't you think it's the height of arrogance to assume to speak for G-d<

I think it is very arrogant to propagate the idea of a Creator who has made an exceedingly complex creation that is governed by physical laws, and not given moral laws to man who is the chief recipient of His creation. And as the Bible, by itself and as a whole, has shown itself to be the proven transcendent source of salvific truth and beneficial morals, i thing it is arrogant to exchange that for an ever morphing morality based upon man's desires. I really do think the world would be worse off by following the example and precepts of Christ, who lived and preached holiness, and served selflessly day and night and, and who then gave Himself for our sins and rose again. And whose resurrection power is realized by those who truly trust and obey Him, inasmuch as we do.

You didn't actually answer a

You didn't actually answer a single one of my questions. Let me break it down into a list so it's easier.

1. How does anyone else's being gay affect you personally? Not society, you as an individual.

2. I didn't say G-d didn't give moral laws. I asked who you were to presume to speak for G-d.

3. What about my spouse-and-me scenarios? Is my spouse male or female? What makes the same scenario all of a sudden unacceptable?

4. I'll reiterate someone else's question: if two people of the same sex fall in love, but don't have sex with each other or anyone else, is that OK?

You didn't answer ...

1 "Ultimately, any disobedience to God's laws is harmful to both individual and society, though the effects are most often not always immediate felt." My answer thus was basically that it affects me that same way a myriad other sinful practices do, from pornography to abortion, etc., which is indirectly, as it promotes and is concomitant with the degradation of society. Of this the Bible and history reveals.

2 I am only one who holds the Bible to be the ultimate authority, the Word of the living and true God, which requires and blesses obedience to it, part of which is sharing it, so i seek to do that. If you want to challenge whether i can or am doing so rightly, you must be able to substantiate that to me from the Bible.

3 Perhaps you are heterosexual, and what makes the difference flows from the above response, which is that God in the Bible has only joined men together with women in marriage, in which their unique compatibility and complementarity is uniquely sanctioned.

Gen 2:24). "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh" (reiterated by Jesus personally and other places). And “wife” always means female, as husband means male.

4 Though homosexual sexual activity is what is clearly forbidden in Scripture, i would say that same gender intimate “romantic love” is also wrong or will lead to sin. The normal result of two persons falling into such romantic love would be that of sexual relations (only) in the context of the life long commitment and societal contract called monogamous marriage. While studies (at least in the Netherlands) show this kind of marriage is rare among homosexuals, the fact that God in no place provides marriage for homosexuals, while clearly forbidding men laying with men as with women, shows that such attraction alone is part of the ultimately harmful aberrations of sinful nature that are not to be sanctioned, while sexual activity therein is clearly forbidden, both on earth and in the kingdom of God.

(1 Cor 6:11) "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

–--------

"i thing it is arrogant to

"i thing it is arrogant to exchange that for an ever morphing morality based upon man's desires."

There are things in the world today that the Biblical writers could never have dreamed of. This forum here is only one of them.

Human existence is ever-morphing. If you can't see any difference between the gods of the Jewish bible and the Christian bible, well, we don't have much left to discuss theologically.

Logically, however, there's still plenty. I will await your answers to my four previously listed questions.

Bible Schmible

Who cares what the bible says? I mean, really? It's like reading a bunch of smarmy moralistic bumper stickers wrapped up in multiple layers of violent soap opera and horridly dated and hateful too.

Maybe Daniel likes to read the bible, but that's for his OWN PRIVATE LIFE, not for our LAWS which are secular and should remain that way. Maybe I think reading the bible is immoral and should be banned? Maybe, but I don't try to make a law about it, I just leave thebible reading to the bible readers. Simple.

Don't like the idea of gay sex or marriage? Don't screw somebody of the same gender or marry them. SIMPLE. Learn to mind your own business.

If you can't get the idea of gay sex out of your head to the point of writing about it obsessively on old threads in obscure blogs, you are the one with the problem, not gay people.

Bible distaste

Unlike some others (see below) whom you likely feel superior to, i believe you are unfit to be able to appreciate healthy "food." Meanwhile, your relegation of the Bible reading as only allowable for only personal devotion effectively establishes another authority of morality. Which shall it be, and what is that not forbad like the principles and general precepts of the Christan faith, which serves to bring souls to be governed more from within (by god and conscience)so that need not be governed from without? It should be obvious that there is a belief system (or non-belief philosophy if you will) behind every government, and legal and educational system, and to remove one ensures it will be replaced with another, in America that has basically become that of secular humanism . We are seeing the effects of such manifest daily in America. (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html).

As for an old threads, after posting an initial response to a recent event, i have only been responding to those who (by your estimation) must be obsessed with refuting Biblical morality. But perhaps it is about time to close, as that the Bible wisely puts men with women (versus same gender unions) is exceeding evident, And wisdom shall be justified by her children.

"I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior of the world is communicated through this book...All things desirable to men are contained in the Bible."
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)

"It is impossible to mentally or socially enslave a Bible-reading people." – Horace Greeley (1811-1872) Publisher and Journalist

“We account the scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. I find more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history whatsoever.” Isaac Newton, English mathematician and scientist, 1642-1727

Jewish authors would never have invented either that style nor that morality; and the Gospel has marks of truth so great, so striking, so utterly inimitable, that the invention of it would be more astonishing than the hero. – Jean Jacques Rousseau, French skeptic

“The interval between the dates of original composition (of the N.T.) and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible and the foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed; both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the N.T. may be regarded as firmly established.” – Sir Frederic Kenyon, Director and principal librarian of the British museum, foremost expert on ancient manuscripts:

"If there is anything in my thoughts or style to commend, the credit is due to my parents for instilling in me an early love of the Scriptures. If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity." Daniel Webster

But you still haven't explained...

...how anyone else's relationship affects you.

If you're going to choose really old books as ethical guides ...

why did you choose these particular ones that you call the 'Bible', rather than others such as the 'Iliad' or 'Odyssey' ?

One Explanation for Daniel Hamilton's Busybody Fixations

from Medline, that EEEVILLLE sciency thing!

1: J Abnorm Psychol. 1996 Aug;105(3):440-5. Links
Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?Adams HE, Wright LW, Lohr BA.
Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013, USA.

The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

PMID: 8772014 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

In other words, men who are soooo very fascinated with what they term "homosexual" activity (never mind that there isn't anything gays do that het's don't too!), are really turned on by it and translate their self hatred into other-hatred. Most true het men don't care because it doesn't turn them on to think about it.

This is not original

I read a comment somewhere recently to the effect that a particular anti-gay activist was more obsessed with gay sex than anyone, including gay men looking for sex.

One (vain) Explanation...

If you notice how this thread began, it in response to the wrong action of an individual in a Christian group, which i contrasted with most Christians. In this context i mentioned “while i oppose things like homosexuality, i would help anyone who disagrees just as i would one who agrees, even as i seek the salvation of all by repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”

Only because others took particular issue with this example did i thread go in the direction it did, and in which i try to respond to whatevr issuies are raised.

However your resortion to psychological reasons is one that is typical of the “argument” against those who oppose homosexuality, however i am being very honest when i say that my responses are not motivated in the least by some fear of being or becoming a homosexual, nor of them, as i am very secure in my sexuality. Meanwhile the logic behind the “homophobic” label would also require that those who are opposed to most anything, from chld molestation to drunk driving do so motiovated by fears that they themselves are one, or fears of becoming one (shall i label those who oppose Biblical morality “holiophobic?). And though i would not discount that some types of persons who are militant against homosexuality as having some psychological issues, that can not determine the validity of a moral argument.

And though some are unable to except it (psychological factors?), and in response to Bob (below), my position that homosexuality is perverse is because i trust the Bible over man's, and history will prove, as it has in the past, that God's eternal wisdom is right.

And with that i think i will move on.

(Isa 55:6-9) "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: {7} Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. {8} For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. {9} For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

History will prove...

"history will prove, as it has in the past, that God's eternal wisdom is right."

I'm more inclined to think that history will prove, as it has in the past, that religious fundamentalism is kinda dumb and has less to do with grace than with humanity's seeming need to try and control everyone else's lives.

He might be right

Though dragged kicking and screaming initially, God's eternal wisdom may be seen in the eventual capacity for religions to adapt to a changing society, reducing confrontation and increasing tolerance. The Churches aren't always that fast to act on God's eternal wisdom, but I guess the thing about eternal is that God is pretty patient with them. Because history has always proven that they do come around in the end.

ARGH

You realize that your color choice on that statistics page, as well as the plethora of fonts and wonky layout, makes it physically painful to try to read, right?

I clicked through. I was going to make an effort. But within thirty seconds, my head hurt from the colors and I had to stop.

I did read enough, however, to understand that you're neither just anti-gay nor regular evangelical; your mind is completely closed. What happened to you to make you like that?

The Bible comes from God, so the Bible says

"claiming authority and substantiating it are two different things."

Daniel, all of your explanations of Biblical authority are nothing more than tautological. Making me wonder why I bothered trying to talk to someone whose only justification is "because someone wrote something that said so."

Actually, I suspect your belief that same-sex relationships are perverse is just based a feeling you have. It may be a same-sex sexual relationship would feel wrong for you personally, or it may be because you have internalized the historical distaste of much of society. But the feeling is the root, and you only use the book to justify your feelings. It's not the reverse, as you seem to believe.

But I'm obviously not going to shift your paradigm. I only take comfort in the fact that society is moving away from feelings like yours, and acknowledging that just because something is different, that doesn't make it perverse. It just is what it is. Just like God intended, imho.

Do you also oppose the earth revolving around the sun?

Well, who doesn't really?

Well, who doesn't really? Darn sun, all up there shining and thinking the solar system revolves around it. Why can't it get a job like the other planets? Why can't it be more like Jupiter, Bringer of Jollity? Now there's a planet that's got its gases together. Jupiter even manages a larger staff than the sun does; I mean, Jupiter has 63 moons to handle. The sun only has nine planets, and it can't even keep Neptune and Pluto from crossing paths all the time. (Pluto is a planet, dammit. It's little, and broken, but still good. Yah. Still good.)

"Why can't it get a job like

"Why can't it get a job like the other planets?"

Because it's too busy growing its ponytail and attending protests?

And not bathing!

And not bathing!

No kidding. A little

No kidding. A little heliohygiene would go a long way towards taking care of those darn solar flares.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.