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Project design?
This is one of those things that has been perpetually discussed/debated for quite a while but never agreed and acted upon.
Does anyone know a website with the project design for how you get 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, a bike lane, and parking on Mass Ave with the occasional left turn area?
are they taking out the silly
are they taking out the silly median?
Hey Kaz...
Any reason why you're always jumping into bike-related threads? You scoot, you don't bike; therefore, bike lanes don't apply to you. Nor should they, and nor should your scooter-riding brethren consider bike lanes to be travel lanes for them. Scooters and bikes are not the same thing. Scooters are motor vehicles; bikes are not. Get on a real bike and I'll take you seriously; keep on scootin' and you'll be treated accordingly.
not according to the law
Still under the law, a sub-50cc scooter is a Moped:
http://www.mass.gov/rmv/license/7moped.htm
"Mopeds may use bicycle lanes next to various ways but are excluded from off street recreational paths"
I saw a scooter in the new
I saw a scooter in the new Comm. Ave. bike lane yesterday. I chose not to yell at him, I'm glad I didn't since I hadn't realized the legal status. It is, however, a very poor idea. Motorized vehicles should not be in bike lanes. No ifs, ands, or buts.
What about wheelchairs?
I actually don't mind scooters, wheelchairs, segways, etc. so long as they behave themselves, don't try to pass where there is no room, don't ride your wheel, etc. ... and aren't 2-stroke blue smokers that cause all the respiring cyclists to gag and puke! Retro my ass.
2-stroke vehicles should not be allowed on urban roadways at all due to their emissions.
Wheelchairs should use the
Wheelchairs should use the sidewalk, Segways should be sent to a recycling center.
here here!
Segways should be sent to the recycling center BEFORE they're even built. Take that, Dean Kamen, for your really bad invention.
really though
they are pretty awful, but isn't the less-noxious exhaust from all the cars more or lessjust as bad for you? Just cause you can't see or smell it doesn't make it any better, right?
School me on this, I know you are an air quality expert. I would think the exhaust from all of the cars and trucks say at kenmore square would be more of a concern than one 2-stroke scooter.
No
I'll let Swirly give you the long answer, but the short answer is no. 2-strokes burn an oil/gas mix and don't have any sort of catalytic converter to clean their exhaust. The result is just awful and all the cars at Kenmore in a day probably can't compare in parts per million on some of the chemicals a 2-stroke can put out in 1 hour.
Two-Stroke Engines Are Very Bad
One of those little "retro" lawnmowers puts out more pollution than several dozen cars. One hour of operation of an uncontrolled 70hp two stroke engine puts out more pollution than driving a modern vehicle 5,000 miles! (70 hp is much larger than a moped or scooter engine, but even scaled down this is still really bad). About 25% of the fuel and oil used by these things ends up in the air in one form or another.
You can't even use a two-stroke lawnmower in areas of California because the emissions are so bad. The emissions can be controlled, but the hydrocarbons and air toxic emissions like benzene are still not great. Unfortunately, most of the toxic lawnmowers that I've seen on the streets predate the Clean Air Act entirely.
It is interesting to see the shifts in overall pollution over time in various areas of the world as 2-stroke engines give way to far more 4 stroke engines, which have emission controls: places like East Germany went through this tremendous drop, and certain modernizing Asian cities are now showing similar changes. There is an overall improvement in air quality, even with more vehicles on the road, once the Trabis and the two-stroke motorcycles vanish from the roadways.
ok
gotcha. I sold my 2-stroke scooter anyways, couldnt deal with smelling like a 2-stroke joke.
Why?
My scooter (2.5'x6') is barely bigger than an average bicycle (2'x6'). It's capable of staying upright at low speeds. If anything, you'd think bikes would appreciate something like that in the lane because parked cars would *really* think twice about just opening their door if they thought there'd be more scooters with the potential to damage their door more than the scooter, unlike a bike. :)
I'd say that anything legally using the bike lane more often is better for everyone who uses the bike lane because it raises awareness and attention to the lane's existence (and its inhabitants).
Now, that having been said, I choose to stay out of the bike lane except in the more extreme traffic situations. Most cars give me more "equality" on the road if I travel just like they do instead of constantly use my ability to skip them on the right all the time. I also found that unless I skipped about 3-5 cars by passing on the right, I don't benefit exceptionally anyways by passing on the right. When there is no bike lane, I also choose to slow down when passing most bicyclists riding in the right lane. I do this primarily to give them a longer buffer before the next car runs up on them from behind. I've also stopped to yell at drivers parked in the bike lane on Comm Ave before. Hell, I'm probably one of the only car drivers these days who still slows down and flashes his headlights to let 18-wheelers over in front of me on the highway when they need to pass something (I also have a CB).
I recognize others on the road and try to make their lives easier too. All I ask to do is the same on my scooter where it's legally allowed and doesn't harm anyone, like driving in the bike lane when I deem it necessary. You're against making my life easier even though I'm for making yours easier?
No, you're not making my life easier
When you or other scooterists swerve into a bike lane. That's some impressive mental acrobatics to claim that, by using them to pass cars, you "raise awareness" in a way that makes things better for people on bikes.
And, for real, leave Kaz alone now.
Glad to hear I'm not the only "4-wheeler"
from this area who still shows some respect for truckers when I'm out on the highways (and who also has a CB in their car).
And, despite what UH Readers may think from some of my recent posts about biking, I do respect cyclists on the road as well. My principal issue is with the fact that, unlike trafffic signals and other highway improvements - which have to be justifed with actual data and facts (i.e. current and projected traffic volumes, crash rates) before they're implemented, providing bike lanes and similar amenities are MANDATED by state law, even if very few people will actually use them or if they create more safety problems for ALL road users than they will solve.
Mopeds and Scooters in bike lane
I believe the law lets mopeds use the bike lane. A moped is a hybrid by bike with a small motor. A scooter has no pedals and travels at much faster speeds. A scooter is a motor vehicle which must be registered and insured and most certainly should not be using the bike lane.
You are incorrect
The law recognizes what you are calling a moped and a scooter as the same vehicle. They are both called a motorized bicycle. The vehicle must be under 50cc in engine size and not be capable of speeds more than 30 mph (while only driving at a maximum of 25 mph).
Motorized bicycles are allowed to use the on-road bike lanes (not if it is detached from the road) and pass on the right within the lane, just like a bike, in the absence of a bike lane. Motorized bicycles also do not require insurance and registration is for a 2-year sticker, not a license plate.
I can also say that there are plenty of "mopeds" that can go faster than my scooter because the engine sizes are the same but my scooter has more weight in the body and wheels.
Bikers-only thread?
Only bikers can discuss bike lanes? Bike lanes only impact people actually in them? Explain that to me.
If they only impact people in
If they only impact people in them, I guess everyone can reply, since I see many cars drive in them, double park, pull over to send a text...
Pull over to text!?
Ha! More like swerve in an out of bike lanes WHILE texting.
Srsly
"Impact" and "bike lane" are inevitably linked.
Really, though. Are these bike lanes to be partitioned off from traffic with stout timbers (like the new bike path along Truman Parkway)? Or are they to be white lines painted on the street?
If the latter, then we should not call them "bike lanes" but rather "target-rich environments".
Data?
Cambridge has many miles of heavily used bike lanes, with few accidents over the years.
Are you playing your assumptions out in vivid exaggeration? Or is there some data that you would like to link to that says otherwise?
that's because in Cambridge, you can never use them
...because they're always full of some cabbies and Cambridge Police cruisers.
In all seriousness, the Cambridge streets are much wider, almost all one lane (I can't think of many two-lane streets save Mass Ave and Mem drive, save the one-way streets around Harvard Square), and Cambridge has both less car traffic and more bikers.
Boston has tons of fast, two lane roads with very narrow lanes where they haven't readjusted lanes and just painted a stripe down the road (at $60k a mile, I might add.)
OK, I will, if:
1. You ride a bike for anything other than recreation, as I do. And,
2. You ride that stretch of road for any reason. Do you?
For the record, I was talking to Kaz, not you. These bike lanes will positively affect my personal safety, because they allow me-- even though I'm in fantastic shape-- to maintain a pace which is slower than that of those in motor vehicles who have their feet stomped to the floor, as many of them do.
To be entirely fair to Kaz-- and I'm pretty sure his feelings weren't hurt too badly here-- he does make plenty of good points about the madness of navigating Boston's streets; certainly I sympathize with the fact that people on scooters are treated pretty much just as badly by motorists as bicyclists are. However, scooters have distinct advantage over bikes: Even a relatively slow one can keep up with city traffic. The concept of having separate lanes for bikes isn't based on the number of wheels, it's based on speed-- you don't see separate lanes on the highway for motorcycles.
Re: the <50cc moped question, that's valid point Ron, but what percentage of two-wheeled motorized vehicles out there are sub-50 ccs? 2%? 1%? Leaving aside the question of whether they should be allowed to use bike lanes (Answer: They should not) you're talking about a fraction of a fraction here. Pocket bikes have virtually disappeared from Boston's streets, and just about the only sub-50 cc old-school mopeds you see are the very few that hipsters have dragged out of garages. Practically speaking, the vast majority of these things have engines 50cc or bigger.
Part of the Problem
The attitude that only X people are "allowed" to discuss "Y" issue is a huge part of the entire area's problem with a fundamental inability to coordinate and plan anything on a meaningful geographic scale. It also leads to cyclists being taken seriously only because the Mayor has a new hobby - not because of any sense of modern urban planning standards directed toward tangible planning goals.
I didn't say anyone wasn't allowed
Francesca said Kaz wasn't allowed. I was just saying scooters do not equal bikes, and that bike lanes have nothing at all to do with scooters. I was also suggesting that thread-hijacking wasn't cool, and that Kaz should stay in school.
As for your line of reasoning that Menino is taking bikes seriously only because he's taken up biking: please. Come on now. While it's entirely possible that Menino's apparent love for biking-- it's not just a photo op, and trust me, I know from fake photo ops-- has influenced his thoughts and actions, surely you realize that he's driven by political expediency more than anything else.
Why is he trying to make Boston more bike-friendly, then? Well, they're a cheap way for people to move themselves from point A to point B, and they don't involve creating extra traffic or parking hassles, or dealing with the giant clusterfuck that is our public transit system. Those efforts also make Boston more desirable for the kind of person who likes to ride, for commuting or otherwise, and views the difficulties of riding as a point against living in Boston. And before anyone gets in my face about how I'm not a contributing member of society-- surely, if I was, I would own a car and drive it-- y'all can piss off: I do own a car, and I do drive it, and I pay for the registration, title, and sales and excise taxes just like everyone else. In fact, by riding my bike, I'm cutting the drivers a financial break, despite the frequent whines from (probably) obese people that it makes them miss green lights: I'm paying those car-related fees whether I'm driving or not, and if I was driving, you definitely wouldn't be passing me. Again, trust me on this.
(Sidenote here to all the idiots who bitch about the cost of bike lanes: Paying your T fare or your car's excise taxes only covers part of the costs of your ride/drive.)
But anyway, back to the main point: Menino's doing this because he wants to make the city more desirable for people who bike, because people who ride bikes, and most importantly the people who are more likely to ride more often if the city takes steps to make riding here suck a bit less, are the kinds of people who will stick around and vote for him if he does. Or so his reasoning seems to be going. I'm not saying that this motivation (if I'm correct, which I am) makes what he's doing any less important, but this isn't just a hobby for him.
most scooters out there
are sub 50cc. I would say at least 80% of scooters on the road are sub-50cc nowadays. Anything over 50cc requires a motorcycle license. Now whether or not they go at the limited speed of 30 mph is a whole different issue.
OK, fine, let's ask the expert
Kaz, what's your take on the breakdown of <50cc versus >50cc two wheelers out there? I said 1 or 2 percent are sub-50, a-ron-a-mouse says 80%.
Anon-a-mouse is right
It's probably closer to about 70-80%. Most of the bigger scooters (like, say, the Burgman 650s) tend to stay out of the city or use the highways since they're much more similar to a motorcycle in that regard. If you see a scooter in the city, it's probably a 49cc for the parking convenience and no Motorcycle License requirement. Otherwise, it's probably between 100-250cc which puts it in the "Limited Use vehicle" category and they'll have an LU license plate instead of the motorized bicycle sticker. As anon-a-mouse also said, there's also the question as to whether the sub-50s abide by the 25mph law-imposed speed limit AND the 30mph max-capable, law-defined speed limiter to remain in the "Motorized Bicycle" definition. Personally, I believe these definitions are antiquated and absurd and choose civil disobedience. I know most others do as well. The sky hasn't fallen yet.
150cc Piagio
My husband has one, but it is unusual in Cambridge/Somerville/Boston to see them with the license plate and larger engine. Most of the same body type ones in the area are 50cc. In all my travels, I've only seen one other 150cc, and a couple of dozen 50 cc ones.
He rides it in traffic, as a motorcycle. He even went up to Conway to visit his brother with it last year, but that was a little silly, even if it will do 60mph easily. The extra engine power makes it practical for hauling our teen boys around on short jaunts - ever see two people on a <50cc scooter try to climb a long steep hill?
Now I'm confused
Real Biker, You will explain to us why one needs their credentials approved (by you) for commenting on bike lanes only if I can prove (to you) my biking credentials? That seems a bit circular to me. And I didn't say Kaz couldn't discuss bike lanes -- I pointed out that you seemed to be doing so.
No, actually I'm confused
Why do you keep hammering on Kaz? He's a good guy. Misinformed about a couple of things, maybe, but overall a good guy. Why you gotta hate, hater?
facepalm
Are you insane? Seriously, what?
YOU said that Kaz shouldn't post in this thread. YOU.
FrancescaFordiani simply called you out for it.
Now you're blaming THAT person for what YOU did?
*backs away from Mister "I am in excellent physical shape if I do say so myself plus I drive faster than all you weaklings, you would never pass me in a car!!!" REAL BIKER*
Nuh-uh, you're insane.
Infinity. Now leave Kaz alone.
Kaz, is that you?
Pretty funny, if it is.
Argh, you got me.
You're right, I've been Kaz all along. Now leave me alone.
Nope
It's not me. I don't play the log-in/log-out game.
Actually, yes I do.
No I don't! Yes I do! Come on me, leave me alone!
Re: sub-50 cc motorized bicycles
Nearly all of the scooter drivers I run into on a daily basis on the streets of Boston are sub-50cc class vehicles (including pedal-start mopeds too). It's anecodotal to be sure, but I am out there a lot and have an obvious particular interest in seeing what my fellow 2-wheelers are driving. For every Il Bello 150cc, I probably see about 2-3 Piaggio/Vespa Fly50/LX50s (actual size -- 49cc). Since the RMV law changed, anyone can now look and see if it has an orange sticker (49cc or less) or a small Limited Use or Motorcycle license plate (50cc and above) as a quick litmus test of engine size.
You're simply wrong that sub-50cc scooters are for hipsters and garage junkies. For months, Herb Chambers would sell out their 49cc stock within a week of arrival and I know other area stores have been the same. Because of fuel economy, parking convenience, and no need to get a Motorcycle license/course, sub-50cc scooters have had a resurgence in popularity in the past 2 years. Most of the ones you see parked on the sidewalks are sub-50cc. In fact, I'm neither a hipster nor a garage junkie. I got it for the convenience and to more easily commute from Brighton to Cambridge and Brighton to BUMC for work. My scooter is only 2 years old, is under 50 cc, and doesn't fit any of the mental bins you've created for scooter riders.
Yeesh... Kaz FAQ
Q) Why do I jump in bike-related threads?
A) Because I have a lot of friends who bike and I like to see them get more places they feel they can ride safely. Because I have a 49cc scooter and a Motorized Bicycle sticker which allows me access to the bike lanes (using them only when the car lanes are snarled badly and they are clear of bikes). Because I like to see the entire city develop around alternative transportation and mass transit and not around the car as a matter of principle, which would be true whether I walked everywhere, only drove a 6-ton SUV, or used my scooter almost exclusively.
Q) But why *this* particular thread?
A) If you'll note from the post I made that you are commenting on, I simply asked if anyone had a picture of the plan. I'd like to know how they plan on doing this "upgrade" in a way that fits 4 lanes of traffic, 2 bike lanes, 2 parking lanes, and the occasional turn lane...all in the space that's available now. My question was one of understanding the new design given that other ideas that have come up previously have never come to fruition. I made no suggestion whether I thought the idea of bike lanes on Mass Ave would be good or bad. I don't know why the hostility given that I was only asking about the plan and made no suggestion that this had anything to do with me scootering at all...because it doesn't.
Q) Do bike lanes apply to me?
A) Yes, they do. If you don't like it, change the law. Car lanes also apply to me...AND bikes. In other words, there's lots of overlap across the entire spectrum.
People argue that mass ave is
People argue that mass ave is a key toure, and that it needs all the capacity it can get.
But Mass ave in cambridge, 15 years ago, ALSO had 4 lanes of traffic, 2 for parking AND a turn area.
Why was cambridge able to remove 2 lanes of traffic, and not cause an apocolypse, but the same suggestion is impossible for Boston?
Yes, mass ave is one of the few north south routes, but people dont seem to grasp that reducing capacity also reduces demand.
make driving inconvenient, people drive less
Absolutely! Reducing capacity does reduce demand. It's sort of pathetic that Cambridge is way ahead of Boston in the bike lane. Maybe the problem is that driving cars regularly causes all the blood to drain from one's brain into one's ass thereby reducing one's ability to think and reason clearly?
Which is why I don't get killed in Cambridge vs. Boston...
I can walk easier in Cambridge, ironically because the streets are not that huge and the traffic flows a lot better. With the exception of MIT, I can traverse through Mass Ave in Cambridge quickly, even when I take the bus.
Mass Ave between Beacon Street and Boston Medical Center is a huge artery for people to get onto I-93 without having to go through Downtown - which also explains why it's so clogged up when ball games are on (riding the Route 1 bus is an exercise in frustration).
Quite obviously, you don't
Quite obviously, you don't get that. There will either be one lane for cars, or they'll get rid of parking.
Given that a large part of that stretch of Mass. Ave. is residential in nature, I'd guess that one of the car lanes gets tossed.
Dear God, good luck
Seriously - it's hard enough to drive that stretch during rush hour, primarily because of double-parked delivery trucks and T buses. Maybe the addition of a bike lane will bring enforcement and everyone will be safer, and happier ... maybe monkeys will fly out of my butt.
The problem there is you
The problem there is you really shouldn't be driving down Mass Ave. I don't drive anymore but when I did I wouldn't even consider taking Mass Ave during rush hour. Place is a parking lot.
Announced this morning at the Bike Party
To much whooping from the Mass Ave contingent. I think they are going to wipe out some parking and, frankly, that's really what they need to do.
I'll be happy when they get some on Charles and Cambridge Streets as the continuation of the Porter Square to Charles segments. They could put them in on Congress Street right now - I rarely see cars fill all four lanes!
were you areond during the car fire two days ago
they were sure filled then!
No doubt
However, on a regular basis and even during rush hour, the roadway capacity for cars is quite underused.
agreed
All it does is makes a daily game of frogger at high street for all of us jaywalkers.
Mass Ave to Huntington remains a kill zone
Bike lane is better than no bike lane (with aware and courteous drivers being best of all) but why the frig do they truncate them like that? Would it really be that much more difficult to just keep going with the lane all the way through from Huntington to the bridge? Mass Ave from the bridge to Huntington is rutted and potholed and rife with risks of getting doored. If I had a nickel for every time a suburbanite in town for a Red Sox game nearly killed me in his dart for a metered parking space on the street, I'd be about 2 bits richer.
Shave and a haircut?
So, it's only happened 5 times then, has it?
2 bits = $0.25
Is 5 near death experiences
Is 5 near death experiences not enough for you, Scooter McGavin?
I'm just sayin'
It's probably more than 5. He shouldn't sell himself so short.
That alright with you, Beer Gut?
Mass Av from Charles River to Huntington will get bike lanes too
Someone from the city made that announcement a few minutes later. It's not part of the same highway project, because this part isn't being fully rebuilt like the part south of Huntington.
There was a money option???
You mean there was a money option? All I got when that happened to me last Sox season was major surgery, a 5 inch scar on my right shoulder, 9 months (and counting) of physical therapy, and a huge medical bill. I wish I'd have known about the nickle option.