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MBTA employees don't care: Even if you show them their own official photo policy, they still won't let you take pictures
By adamg on Wed, 07/14/2010 - 11:43pm
Libberding reports a photography class she teaches went into the bowels of Harvard station tonight to, well, take photos. And they were promptly blocked by T workers who told them to knock it off, even though official T policy specifically allows non-commercial photography on T property (with certain safety caveats, such as no use of flash):
As we were talking, another MBTA employee caught another one of our group taking photos, and pulled him towards us. Eventually, I got around to showing each employee (by now, there were three of them gathering us together) what their own website said.
They seemed shocked by this. The woman we initially encountered had already called dispatch, and was in the middle of telling us that three years ago, she underwent training that told her that all photographic activity on MBTA property was strictly prohibited.
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Comments
I wish people would stand their ground on this
Until people start standing their ground, this bullshit is going to keep going on...
We tried
We were there for nearly an hour, stating our cases, with several of us with the page of the MBTA website - and even the actual PDF - loaded on our phones, and they argued and argued and tried to make us wait for the dispatch.
bostonist.com/2007/07/26/mbta_photo_poli
http://bostonist.com/2007/07/26/mbta_photo_poli.php
Don't take a PDF on your
Don't take a PDF on your phone. Take two copies of the printed document, each.
From previous discussions
From previous discussions I've seen about this it seems that Massachusetts has no test for what constitutes "press" in terms of freedom of the press so any use which involves publication, including blog posts and phoot sharing sites, could conceivably be covered under both federal and state constitutional garauntees of freedom of the press.
Did you wait? After showing
Did you wait? After showing them the policy, if they continue to bother you, tell them to call the transit police. They either will chicken out and leave you alone, or call the transit police and be embarrassed.
Now, if the transit police says it's illegal, you have yourself a nice profitable lawsuit.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/bostonphotomob/discus...
http://www.mbta.com/transitpo
http://www.mbta.com/transitpolice/faq/
Interesting. I was at the
Interesting. I was at the Harvard stop and was taking some pictures and a T employee walked by me and said "Don't let them catch you doing that" I don't know who "them" was, maybe the MBTA cops. I've never had a bad experience but the T isn't good on keeping their people up to date on policy. Of course, this is way down on their list of priorities
call the T Police
Seriously. I believe the Transit Police probably know the law and regs better than the other T employees. The number is 617-222-1212.
As always
Massachusetts: Employing the Unemployable Since 1620
Seriously, what a stupid bitch. "Three years ago?" Who cares? Three years ago, George Bush was the president and the Celtics sucked. Things change. If somebody prints the effing policy for you, they are right and you are wrong. Accept it and go back to your phoney baloney job.
Where's the press?
It's going to continue to happen until there's some unflattering publicity on the matter. Where's Channel 5 or the Globe? While they're at it, they should cover the T's absurd and wasteful bag search policy. I saw seven Transit cops and a police dog standing behind a machine at Arlington St, one going through some woman's pocketbook last night. Shouldn't they be elsewhere on the system?
Until a press photographer is asked not to take
pictures on the T, they will continue not to care about the issue.
Of course, I can't imagine a T employee or the Transit Police questioning a press photographer anyway.
Funny you say that
The female MBTA employee we were originally talking to actually uttered the phrase, "It's bad enough when we've got the press in here, in our faces." I was like, wait whut?
Did you take a photo of her?
If not, you should have, then attached that photo to the blog post.
Huh?
Neal, do u even know what they were doing going thru her bag? If they were actually "going through" her pocketbook they probably had a legitimate reason for doing so. That whole random Federally funded random-bag-checking is all that they can do in our free and open society to attempt to do something about a terrorist attack on the subway system. And, what do u mean exactly by "shouldn't they be elsewhere on the system?"?
they probably had a legitimate reason
God help us.
In this country, we have fourth amendment protection, which includes protection against unreasonable searches. To search someone's bag, police must demonstrate probable cause to obtain a search warrant or alternatively, the person must consent.
Spot checks on passengers backpacks and handbags, without a warrant or consent, is an illegal search.
Not my point.
I know it would be unconstitutional if that is why they were "going through" her bag. My point is, they may have been going through her bag for some other reason, something unrelated to random-checks. Neal makes us believe they were doing this because she was chosen in the random-check. Maybe she was the suspect in some crime and they were legitimately going thru her bag in search for evidence in that case? It was left vague at best and misleading at worst.
It may or may not be unconstitutional.
It is up to the people to decide what "unreasonable" means. In theory anyway.
I'm pretty sure it was a random check.
As they had set up the lobby to do random checks checks of passengers' bags. I think it was a reasonable assumption that stopping and searching the pocketbook of a woman who had just come down the stairs on her way into the station to catch the train was a random check. I had no reason to think otherwise.
Do we know if
MBTA officers can refuse a rider access to tide the train if the rider does not consent to a search?
yes, they can.
if you do not consent to the search, you are asked to leave the premises immediately. if you refuse, and enter the subway anyway, you can be subject to arrest. i have no idea if they have ever done this, but they can.
And of course you can leave
And of course you can leave the station and walk to the next station down the line that doesn't have this nonsense.
Neal, you know what they say about assuming?
It seems you have an agenda against this whole policy, don't peddle it with your assumptions. Get back to us when u have some facts please.
Yes, I do have an agenda against this policy.
And I gave you the facts as I saw them. You just don't seem willing to accept them as I have reported them. That's your choice, I guess.
Facts?
To Neal: Yeah, like I said, get back to us when u have some facts. "I saw seven Transit cops and a police dog standing behind a machine at Arlington St, one going through some woman's pocketbook last night." You call those "facts" that support your theory that this was something to do with the random-bag-searches? You don't say what lead to the bag being searched. You don't say you heard any officer tell her they are searching her bag due to the random-search policy. You don't even mention that there was a random-search detail set up. You saw something after the fact and then convinced yourself that's what it was. You're like someone who "saw" a car accident after hearing loud smashing noises and then turning to see the aftermath of an accident. The only thing your "facts" mean is that for some reason unknown to you, a cop was "going through" some lady's bag. Nothing more, nothing less. Get back to us when u have more/better facts if you want to advance your agenda better.
To Anonymous: I can think of a lot of reasons why cops would be going through some woman's bag other than for explosives. Can't you?
I can think of a lot of
Pray tell.
Hello?
Let's see?
1. Witness/victim says to police: "That's her officer, she is the one that stole the (fill in blank), she put it in her purse."
2. Suspect 1 says: "ok, I gave the (piece of evidence) to my girl, it's in her purse."
3. Smell of marijuana in car and the only thing the lone girl driver has on her is her purse.
4. Woman is arrested and has purse with her at time. Officers conduct an inventory search of her belongings.
Need more?
What was it you were saying about assumptions?
Oh yeah.
In what scenario
do MBTA police rifle through a woman's handbag that is not a random search for terrorist explosives?
Random searches
Wait, if they are random bag checks, doesn't that by definition mean they have no legitimate reason for doing so? In fact, if they have a legitimate reason to search someone, they probably can't, because then it's not random.
Yes, we're also free to call them
They've been doing this for a few years simply because they can. Again, same thing today: seven cops and a dog outside of Government Center station, when they should be elsewhere on the system. A coworker of mine whose son works for the T as a CS agent told me that her son recently had to wait about 45 minutes for the MBTA Police to arrive after a rider was assaulted at Community College during rush hour, were there more police patrolling the system rather than playing security theatre, the response time may have been better. It doesn't make the system safer. It doesn't protect anyone. And they haven't found any bombs to date (plus, anyone with ill intentions could simply walk a few blocks to the next station). It's nothing more than a huge waste of resources and fare & taxpayers' money. I've already written to my state rep and senator about it, asking that the MBTA be directed to stop the program until it can be proven that there is some sort of public benefit to it.
Neal.
Most of those 'security shows' you see in some stations are paid for by federal grants.
So you might want to write your US rep or Senator. I doubt that would do much good though since most of them probably helped get that grant money in the first place.
And that makes it less wasteful somehow?
Federal grants or not, it's useless showmanship and a waste of resources and time that could be put to much better use, not to mention an appalling abuse of the spirit of the Fourth Amendment (whether or not it's actually Constitutional, despite the MBTA being a government owned entity and body politic in its own right). I'd rather the T be spending its grant writing efforts on actually improving the reliability and addressing actual threats to the safety of the system.
No I'm just saying
For every million dollars the T gets in these types of grants, maybe 50K of it goes to this type of stuff. the other 950K might in fact go to some good things that you probably agree with.
Its the feds who decide what this money gets spent on, not the MBTA.
Yes, we're also free to call them
They've been doing this for a few years simply because they can. Again, same thing today: seven cops and a dog outside of Government Center station, when they should be elsewhere on the system. A coworker of mine whose son works for the T as a CS agent told me that her son recently had to wait about 45 minutes for the MBTA Police to arrive after a rider was assaulted at Community College during rush hour, were there more police patrolling the system rather than playing security theatre, the response time may have been better. It doesn't make the system safer. It doesn't protect anyone. And they haven't found any bombs to date (plus, anyone with ill intentions could simply walk a few blocks to the next station). It's nothing more than a huge waste of resources and fare & taxpayers' money. I've already written to my state rep and senator about it, asking that the MBTA be directed to stop the program until it can be proven that there is some sort of public benefit to it.
How many employees are there?
How many employees are there? You would think with all the encounters documented online and giving them these pdfs that the employees would start to learn the new policy... Or are they just refusing to understand.
Catches them off guard
There have been several situations where I've had to explain the rules to MBTA employees, and my take on it is that they just HATE being wrong, and being called out by an ordinary peon, to the point that they'll go to the ends of the earth to defend themselves even if they know their argument has no legs. Probably even a gut reaction, to avoid losing face, then snowballing as the official assumes the complainant will give up at the flash of that big, scary T patch. Then the complainant doesn't give up, so the official calls in the big guns. And...scene.
But at the end of the day, no terrorist attack on the T, so hey, the system works!
Well someone have to do
Well someone have to do something about this. Perhaps it is time to put the time and wait for the 30 to hour long wait for the big guns so some employees finally starts to accept that the rules have changed.
Where is it in the bill of
Where is it in the bill of rights that any douchebag with a Powershot can be Jimmy Olsen?
Didn't someone just post this
Didn't someone just post this thing about a year ago, are we just recycling stories now?
Recycling at the T, now there's a thought
T employees keep proving unable to comply with their own rules, so we keep posting about that. This is merely the latest in a long line of such incidents.
Two Points
One, the presumed reason for this is to prevent terrorism. But that's such a BS answer. I mean I'm sure an afternoons trip to the library could provide you with far more detailed info on the T as part of the public record than you could ever get just snapping shots with a point and shoot or even an SLR. Hell it's not like you need crystal clear resolution on photos so if I was a terrorist I'd just walk around with my phone held in my casually and take video. Or if I did want high quality images I'd grab one of those Flip hi-def video things, that looks enough like a phone that no one would notice it. Harassing people taking art photos of the subway is pointless. And it's not like those pics aren't out there already. I mean I a Flickr search for "mbta" brings back almost twenty thousand images, inclduing really detailed pictures of tunnel infrastructure like this one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/kvegas/3338211358/. And no one is doing anything to try and suppress these. The cat is out of the bag on pictures and info about the T.
Secondly, I don't think it's fair to blame these random T proles for harassing people. Shit roles downhill and I'm sure they've been told that it's illegal to take pictures on the T and no one ever bothered to update them on that. I put more blame on the T brass who promulgated an unenforceable policy and then didn't inform their personnel of the change. I'm sure that this photo policy was implemented after 9/11 when everyone went stupid with fear over terrorism and they didn't bother to change it until people started raising a big stink a few years ago.
If moron one
If moron one continues to enforce a "no photo policy" at the MBTA that ended 3 years ago, I think we can hold moron one accountable and moron one's boss accountable too.
I wonder if the union
is in the best position to get this straightened out quickly.
It'd be a PR win for the union and a black eye for MBTA suits.
Flash mob, minus the flash
Can someone just organize a flash mob of people with cameras to go to multiple stations simultaneously, with flashes turned off and the media notified?
It'll be a fun media opportunity and will make it very clear and very public (even to T employees) that people are indeed allowed to take pictures in stations within the safety guidelines.