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State to spend $1.3 billion to replace ancient Red, Orange Line cars

Gov. Patrick said today riders of increasingly decrepit Red and Orange Line trains will see relief in 2019, when the first of new cars begin arriving under a schedule set by the MBTA board of directors:

The project will deliver at least 226 vehicles; 152 Orange Line cars, replacing the entire fleet of 120, and 74 Red Line cars with an option to increase the fleet to 132. The new cars will provide improved reliability, accessibility and energy efficiency. New car features include increased capacity and additional seating, wider and electrically operated doors, four accessible areas per car, LED lighting, modern HVAC systems and advanced passenger information and announcement systems. The MBTA expects to award a contract for the cars by winter 2014-15, with the condition that the final assembly of the cars will take place in Massachusetts, providing further investment in the Commonwealth. Following required extensive pilot train testing, Orange Line car delivery is scheduled to begin in winter 2018-19 and Red Line car delivery in fall 2019.

Also today, he announced the state will begin work to "rebuild and straighten" the turnpike in Allston and replace turnpike toll plazas with "open road" detectors.

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Comments

THIS (Red and Orange fleet replacement) is perhaps the single best investment in the MBTA at this time. Now let's just hope they don't screw it up and go with an unproven contractor like they did with the Green Line Type 8s and the new Huyndai-Rotem coaches for the commuter rail. At least they're doing a bundle deal to maximize similarities between the Red and Orange fleets, allowing for a better exchange of parts and maintenance. I'm secretly hoping they go with articulated trains (doubtful) to increase capacity by 10% and increase convenience and safety by who-knows-what %.

The oldest Red Line cars will be at least 50 years old when finally replaced, assuming it really does happen in 2019 or 2020.

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They won't be articulated. The specifications call for A-car/B-car "married-pairs". The A-car will have a control cab on one end, but the B-cars will have no control cabs. That is a change for Boston, which has usually ordered pairs with both cars having a control cab. So a six-car train will only have three cabs (one at each end plus one in the middle) vs. the six cabs on a six-car train of the existing equipment. That will create a little more space for seats and standees in the b-cars.

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They could still make it A-B articulated pairs. But I'll take it. It's a capacity increase. It is even better than A-B-A-A-B-A, and one step away from being A-B-B-B-B-A!

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They have issued the final specification and put out the formal request for bids today. There is no opportunity to make the A/B cars an articulated pair unless they want to start over and put out a new specification. Considering how long it has taken to finally get to this point (just asking for bids), I doubt they would consider delaying the procurement for that.

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with this proposed configuration, should a pair of cars that happens to have the control end need to be taken out of service. IMO, this doesn't justify the minimal additional seating and standee space created by eliminating the second control cab from the 'B" car.

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Besides creating some additional space, it should also result in some cost savings. They will need half of the radios, half of the controllers , half of the ATO signal equipment etc compared to equipping every car with all the equipment found in the cab. Back when they used to run a mix of 4-car and 6-car trains, it made sense for every car to have the ability to lead, so they could quickly make-up and break-up shorter or longer trains. But now that they run only six-car trains at all times, four of the six cabs on a train are not used, sometimes for weeks if sets aren't broken up. Right now, if the car leading a train goes disabled, an inspector will cut the controls on the bad car and run the train from the 3rd or 5th car. If the entire train has a problem (like low air pressure on all six cars) they have to push the disabled train with another train tached on. Won't be any different under this configuration, except there will only be 2 extra cabs available to control the train vs. 5 extra cabs, and there will be a greater chance that the nearest spare cab controls won't be facing the direction of travel. But that really doesn't matter, the disabled train still has to be unloaded whether its being controlled from the third car or the sixth car, and the inspector controlling the train still needs to depend on radio instructions from the motorperson at the front of the train, no matter what direction the cab is facing.

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one car at the back every other train would be very useful. right now only two bikes can take a train during off-peak hours.

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Two per car - preferably one at each end.

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I'm all for providing preference, or advantage, tolocal business in procurement of goods or services that are already provided/made in Mass, but when the goods aren't made here, doesn't it just increase our procurement costs to require bidders to manufactur them here? Does the state think that the bidders are just going to eat the costs of spooling up operations in Mass instead of just factoring it into their bid price? Not sure I understand the logic there. That said, huzah for the new orange line cars. I assume they will still have faux wood paneling in them?

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It sure does! It's basically a hidden stimulus package to benefit the manufacturing industry in MA.

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And how many factories are there in Massachusetts which are able to build a railcar?

This requirement is a guarantee that the project will cost more, take longer, and produce a worse product.

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With all due respect, aren't the current Red Line cars the second newest the fleet? What about the Blue Line?

How old are the Red Line cars? I moved to Boston in 1998, and people were still talking about how nice the automated announcements were.

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There's three different fleets. The oldest of which is from 1969.

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Then it's likely you are in the old red line cars. They are LOUD! Plus they use a PA system with the clarity of an adult talking in a Charlie Brown Christmas of the same era...

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The 01500-01600 Silverbirds were at one time, the smoothest riding rapid transit vehicles I've ridden on. Even smoother than New York City's R 44 Cars. They had very comfortable seats and a nice seating pattern, like DC's Metrorail. Then they "gutted" then, replace the seats with the New Yor city pattern of all side seats. I heard they weren't maintained a deteriorated badly. Now, thery're shells of their former selves.

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Hey Slumerville hippies, howse that Green line extension coming along? Feeling upset yet?

Lets see...new train on track 61....new trains on other lines...station improvements.... good job taking all that time for community feedback and waiting till the state doesn't give a crap any more.

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it's going along very well.. they just got funding for the Union Square branch and already have broken ground.

Why don't you fact check before you post..

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Blue Line cars were all replaced between 2007 and 2009.

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The red line has three batches of cars made at different times. The oldest batch, 66 cars, are from 1969-70. Another batch of 46 is from 1987-89. The "new" ones with the automated announcements are from 1993-94, and there are 82 of those.

The blue line currently has the newest trains in the system, the entire fleet was replaced with cars built in 2007-2009.

Everything you ever or never wanted to know: http://www.transithistory.org/roster/

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The BL fleet is now 100% brand new.

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the BL fleet consists of the newest rapid transit cars in the system. But they've been running since 2009 - hardly brand new.

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4 Years old Blue Line vs 30-50 year old Red/Orange line Cars. Do you really need to make a debate on the meaning of "brand new?"

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... will argue over anything.

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I'd love to have seating in the new cars like the seating in the old Pullman cars from the 1950s ... those cars not only had built-in pull down handles, they had bench seats that were not divided into "seats" - worked a lot better than specifying a "seat width" that was less than that of the average female rear/average male shoulders sans coat.

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I think there were benches. This would be in the early 1970s on the Ashmont line. I could swear there were long plastic benches.

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The original "silver birds" which are now repainted red and are some of the oldest in the Red Line system, originally came with seating akin to that of a commuter rail car. They were also originally also slated to only run on the Braintree branch and operate much like an inter-urban line.

However, soon after their introduction there was outrage that no one on the Dorchester branch got to have the new cars. Public pressure forced the cars to be run on both branches.

Then not all that long after, it was determined that these commuter-style seating arrangements were not a good idea. In fact people seated in a seat by the window could not get off at their stop of the train was rush-hour crowded with other people holding on to seat handles (like on buses) in the access aisles. So they were rebuilt to return the cars to the same config as their earlier counterparts with the bench seating along the outer sides of the cars.

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I would love to see them purchase fully articulated trainsets like the ones in Berlin, Munich and Toronto (among others) and are currently being considered by the MTA in New York. This would go a long way to help the Orange Line's capacity issues.

I can't insert the links into the above for some reason, so here are the urls for the recent NY Times article on them: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/21/nyregion/no-door... and the Wikipedia article on the Berlin, Munich, Toronto, etc cars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movia

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I was recently on those trains in Berlin, and while it's very cool to look down the looooooooong length of the train, I do think there's something to be said for having the ability to switch cars if there's a crazy person, homeless guy, weird stench, subway preacher, mariachi band, or what have you that's bothersome.

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With a single car with closed doors you have nowhere to go. With articulated train you can always "escape" further down the train or closer to conductor. With the train connected there are more witnesses and more people to call for help should something go wrong too.

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How about no more Big Red cars though, mmkay?

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Articulated cars would stave off any need for seatless trains, but otherwise, your next solution is longer trains. Hmm, 8-car trains, or a couple rush-hour sets without seats in the middle?

A Green Monster is necessary for those Red Sox crowds.

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is coming, people immediately scurry away from the middle, because no one wants to be in those cars. Not sure what the solution to that is.

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Put the seats back in.

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What, no comments about the straightening of the Turnpike at the A/B tolls?

I'm all for upgrading the kit on the Red and Orange lines, but it seems to me that the much bigger news is going to be the realignment of a major interstate highway in the middle of the urban core.

Has anyone heard whether the Turnpike realignment is going to be accompanied by some development of the old Beacon Yards by Harvard or (especially) the upgrading of the remaining tracks over there particularly w/r/t the Grand Trunk? Am I going to get my West Station? A RER-type train between 128 and North and South Stations? Is the realignment being designed with any of these things in mind?

There are so many possibilities here! Let's not screw this one up!!!!

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I don't think there's much in the way of possibilities as far as the Grand Junction. It either continues to exist after the project, or it doesn't (and it will, of course, continue to exist). I'm positive there's a land swap deal here; Harvard gives the state a ROW along the tracks, and in turn they get a huge parcel where the tolls/interchange is. Everybody wins! No impact on Brighton Landing/"West Station," I would assume -- it's too far east of that. I'm just hoping they leave room for four tracks, not just the simple double-track (for a paralleling rapid transit line, to eliminate stops on the Worcester Line).

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What I meant by West Station is a big intermodal thing - not Brighton Landing. I'm talking Commuter Rail, RER-type frequent service between 128 (no more Newton commuter rail stops) , a change for cross-river RER-type trains to N.Sta and Cambridge, local AND intercity bus terminal - hell, we could even have a connection to a dock on the river for water transportation!

w/r/t Grand Junction, I meant a track reconfiguration so that trains from South Station/BBY could get to North Station and points north without having to go out to the existing track and then have to reverse to get over the bridge.

My overarching point was this: this is a once in many generations opportunity, and if we blow it, we're going to miss a major, major, major economic development opportunity. Just think: BU Allston Ghetto as a desirable address!

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Why would you want a big intermodal station there? It's not within walking distance of where anyone wants to be. It isn't even along any transit lines that would take people where they want to be.

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Have you looked at a map lately? Ever?

This area is literally in BU's backyard, is super close to Harvard Business School and borders a part of Harvard's someday massive Allston campus. It is also walkable to Allston Village, the residential section of Lower Allston, Cambridgeport and, for those in even reasonably decent shape, Central Sq. in Cambridge and even Coolidge Corner in Brookline.

Also, the entire notion of what I was saying is that there should be a transit stop there (on the commuter rail tracks for an RER type intraurban high frequency service). Also, the B branch of the Green Line is also only a couple of hundred feet away.

A critically important part of any realignment or redevelopment in this area is the inclusion of at least a pedestrian (and probably even vehicle) passage between the site and Comm Ave./Brighton Ave., which passage is east of Linden St./Cambridge St. and west of the BU Bridge (i.e. over the mainline tracks and realigned Turnpike). I don't see that in any of the plans, and I find that very troubling.

(As an update to my earlier post, the Globe has now published the concept plan for the realignment.)

(I have no idea what the hell is happening with the html stuff here, sorry. I tried my best)

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The 1800s (the newer Red Line cars made by Bombardier) are by far the best vehicles the T owns. Why don't they just solicit bids for more cars of that design, with any incremental improvements that have been developed since they were built?

When Toyota wants to design a new Camry, they start with the old Camry, and analyze what worked and what didn't. They don't reinvent the wheel every time. That's how to develop a reliable and affordable product.

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"increased capacity and additional seating, wider and electrically operated doors, four accessible areas per car"

You can't have all four of those things at once.

More seats means less capacity. Wider doors and more wheelchair spots mean fewer seats.

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Always running 6 car trains instead of 4 car trains off peak seems bad for several reasons:
1. It wastes lots of electricity (and money), thus producing more greenhouse gas. The MBTA is the biggest electricity user in the state!
2. It puts many extra unnecessary miles on old cars, leading to more breakdowns.
3. The odds of a car breaking down in a train of 6 cars is higher than on a train of 4 cars.
4. Higher maintenance costs from all the extra car-miles.

Then there is the reason for just running 6 car trains: Poor operational management tools and skills.

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If you don't know what you are talking about please don't try to BS people here with made up stuff.

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I know Mark's opinions aren't usually taken kindly around here, but what is said is essentially fact. Except #3. I'm not sure what he's trying to say in point #3. So please, anon, if you have no idea what someone else is talking about, don't try to BS people here with your inane ramblings.

Anyway. There's technically nothing preventing the MBTA from running four-car sets. Not now nor in the future when these cars arrive. It's essentially just a management issue.

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Point 3 is about statistics. If a subway car breaks down on average once per 100 miles, 6 cars give more shots at hitting the breakdown lottery than 4. On the other hand, if empty cars are far less likely to break down than cars laden with passengers, running 6 car trains helps give the system inflated statistics of car reliability (miles between breakdowns), making management look better. Vehicle reliability is one of the very visible statistics in the National Transportation Database. http://www.ntdprogram.gov/ntdprogram/data.htm

My point about management is this: Operations would need to be on their toes and constantly be aware of public events that could drive up demand for 6 car trains like baseball, hockey, basketball games, concerts, charity walks, and festivals. Electronic aids to assist include entrance gate monitoring at stations to know when lots of people are waiting on a platform. The automated system in Paris does things like that and schedules trains more often with high demand.

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I can't think of a time anymore when the Orange Line or Red Line has more than a few unused seats. Not at 10 am (trains are actually crammed full), not at 10pm (ditto).

While a four car train may be more fuel efficient, there is not any time other than 5am on Sunday when you could get away with that anymore.

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Personally, I think that weekend headways should be equal to weekday headways. Just use four-car sets instead of six. I think this is the ideal solution, and everybody wins.

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I like more frequent service too but this represents a very big increase in operating costs. Adding more trips means adding more labor, and that cost dwarfs any potential savings on electricity. Running 6-car trains at worse frequency is much more cost-effective than 4-car trains at better frequency, although as I said earlier, the more frequent service is better from a customer's perspective.

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Well off-peak, of course :)

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Davis is near the end of the line. You don't know how busy that train was in the downtown portions, for instance.

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Someone else besides me who makes a comment defending Markk. I agree with your point with reference to Markk.

Remember people, regardless of associated branding, truth and value of content depends on the content and ultimately have to be judge on that. To be fair, branding is trust system, it can help shift through the crap.

That said, in this case, married pairs can be good news rather than articulated trains. With married pairs, one can send on 4 car trains on low ridership times. The only requirement is management allowing it, whereas 6 car articulated trains would make it not possible.

However, there is a few counterpoints. First, if it really worthwhile to go back and forth sending out 4-car trains and 6-car trains just save some miles. I believe there was a time we ran 4 car subway trains. I believe there's a reason why we left that behind. Does Boston how times that low, consistent, and long enough (4 car trains for the last two cycles are probably not worth the effort for example) to care?

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The power difference is minimal in terms of overall cost. So is the maintenance difference, which has to be weighed against the cost of coupling and uncoupling cars much more frequently. There's also the question of shuffling around sets in the yard. There's a significant advantage to having uniformity of sets, instead of finding the wrong train blocking the one that you need, and having to do extra work to get that sorted out.

The big cost factor in first-world transit systems is labor. And a 4-car train offers no labor savings over a 6-car train. The whole point of trains is that you can run longer ones without increasing the amount of staffing, thus improving productivity. That's their inherent advantage over buses.

Is it possible to upsize/downsize trains on the fly? Yes, it is conceivable, and it is done in some places with newer systems, usually ones that are completely computer controlled, or have better operational discipline.

Does that make it worth the trouble for the T at this point? Probably not.

Also, you have to account for the fact that there are plenty of "off-peak" rushes on the Red Line (and the other lines too). We have reached the point where 6-car trains every 5 minutes don't have enough capacity for the traditional peak commute. At other times of day, the Red Line is often still very busy, and running 4-car trains would end up creating a totally unnecessary capacity crunch. The T already shoots itself in the foot in numerous ways, let's not create another problem.

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It is non-intuitive, I know.

In the "old days" the MBTA ran 2 and 4 car trains. 2 in off peak hour and 4 in peak hours and that was on the Red, Orange, and Blue lines. In fact it was possible for the original "Silverbirds" (now the older trains painted red) to run as a single car much like a Green line streetcar, and they did experiment with this on Sundays running single car shuttles on the Quincy branch early-on. These were later rebuilt into married pairs like the rest of the fleet.

Operating 2-car sets meant that at some point they would have to have a yard crew hook up trains to make 4-car sets, then break them apart to make 2-car sets. It was actually a cost savings in man-hours and overall operation cost and down time to stop doing that and just run all 4-car sets.

When the T determined that 4-car sets were inadequate, they implemented a station platform extension program on the Red, Orange, and Blue lines to allow for 6-car trainset operation. The idea was that they could accommodate more people that way. With a little observation power you can easily find where the platforms were extended on these lines where it was needed.

The MBTA of today does not look at all like it did back in the 70s and 80s.

So 6-car trainsets were implemented to accommodate more people, and with the elimination of having to couple and uncouple combinations in the yard they realized man hour savings.

Keeping trainsets moving is better than allowing them to rust sitting in the yard somewhere. The odds of a trainset breaking down does not correlate to how many cars are in a train set.

The T is tackling its electric consumption by implementing wind power and solar power but some of that is being resisted by communities that don't want that in their back yard. Blame them, not the T.

They also wanted to convert to all CNG buses like those running out of Forest Hills but no city or town wanted to license CNG refueling depots. So there are only 3 refueling depots for CNG buses all in Boston. They would be running all CNG by now (long ago actually) and have cut their pollution ratios down drastically but the PEOPLE said no. Blame them, not the MBTA.

While the T may be a big consumer of electricity they do not pay the same rate as a residential customer. They only pay pennies on the dollar.

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Around when the T switched to 6-car trains, they also put in a new signal system that couldn't handle as many trains per hour as the old system. So the overall capacity is the same, but passengers have to wait longer, and there's a bigger chance of traffic jams.

Just a few years ago, there used to be 4-car trains off-peak, and 6-car trains peak.

The CNG buses are terrible. The T has been running them less and less. I've been seeing a lot of diesel buses off-peak on the routes that were supposed to be all CNG.

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