By adamg on Fri., 1/31/2014 - 8:14 am
The Jamaica Plain Gazette reports plans to replace the concrete-dropping Casey Overpass are on hold because the Massachusetts Historical Commission is raising questions about Massachusetts Department of Transportation plans to significantly alter what turns out to be the rather historic rotary on the decrepit overpass's southern end.
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"historic state parkway"
By Sock_Puppet
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:17am
You gotta be kidding me.
What's next, historic landmark status for piss stains and graffiti?
Scenic drive
By Crankycoffey
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:31am
Putting a traffic light in a scenic drive does seem problematic. Why can't they just leave the rotary alone if they are talking about maintaining the beauty of the area, which is part of their argument?
Yes indeed
By Sock_Puppet
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:58am
It would be a shame if motorists were prevented by a red light from appreciating the local scenic elements, such as the back parking lot of the T facility, the mental hospital, and the dental implant building, at the speed at which they are best enjoyed.
The pleasant sounds native to the scenic Forest Hills Rotary Park - squealing brakes, the melodic screech and crash of metal and glass, and the mellifluous cursing of the inhabitants - would all be reduced by this dastardly plan.
great usage!
By Robert Paulson
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 3:03pm
Mellifluous...well played!
Oh, this is nothing
By adamg
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:49am
Spring Street in West Roxbury turns into Bridge Street in Dedham on a bridge that crosses the Charles. That project was held up for years (or maybe it just seemed that way to those of us who had to drive over it) because of concerns about the historic original bridge there. The state managed to save that bridge, but by encasing it in concrete, so there is no way to tell the bridge was ever even there (at least at Paul's Bridge over the Neponset, there's a marker).
Jump in a canoe sometime.
By chaosjake
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:13pm
Jump in a canoe sometime. Both those bridges look pretty good from the water.
Paul's Bridge: https://picasaweb.google.com/m/viewer#photo/112537...
Bridge Street/Spring Street: https://picasaweb.google.com/m/viewer#photo/112537...
Both pics fail
By willisan
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:13pm
to load
I get a picture of a Mack
By kvn
Sat, 02/01/2014 - 9:00am
I get a picture of a Mack dump truck I was going to buy for the Big Dig.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CJufBCVq_k8/UNd...
high-speed traffic circles are bad design
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 12:17pm
Why would someone want to preserve an early example of really bad traffic design? There's a reason why they don't do these anymore in most of the world - they're unsafe. This isn't an important piece of architecture or park or landscape - it's an example of WHAT NOT TO DO.
Actually, I find this
By Hyde_Parker
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 3:39pm
Actually, I find this interesting. The parkway system in Boston and Cambridge must be historic, as one of the first urban "highways" in the US. While I'm not privy to what documents MHC is using to evaluate the overpass (they're public, but I can't be bothered to do the research at this moment.) Does anyone know if the Casey Overpass was included in a larger nomination to the National Register of Historic Places, or is it listed/eligible on its own?
This post make it sound like all of a sudden MHC has thrown a wrench in MassDOT's works. MHC's involvement here is pretty standard and MassDOT should have known to expect it. MHC is required by law to look at a project's effects to resources listed on or eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places whenever public money is involved, a process called Section 106. It's likely that MHC will make a finding of "No Adverse Effect" or ask that the overpass be photographed, but will not ask for its preservation. From the JP Gazette article: "MHC has repeatedly requested design alternatives and more proof for altering the historic state parkway. The back-and-forth has already delayed the overall Casey Arborway project’s start date once." Well, sounds like there wouldn't have been a back-and-forth if MassDOT had just given MHC what it needed in the first place.
Misleading
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:44am
This post is a bit misleading. The linked article doesn't say they don't like the plan, just that they haven't released their decision and that in the past they had asked for more information on alternatives. AKA they're slow.
OK, "dislike" changed.
By adamg
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:50am
OK, "dislike" changed.
Heaven forbid we should
By Scratchie
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:50am
Heaven forbid we should redesign a historic parkway so it's safer to drive on.
Oh, so "controversial"...
By Sally
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:01am
I just don't get this. The redesign of the overpass is always presented as this "controversy" when, as far as I can actually see, the vast majority of neighbors and people affected are in support of the new design. I know there are concerns and people who are worried about the traffic patterns but all in all it seems like the Whole Foods kerfuffle--a very, very small fraction of people against and a huge majority for it and yet it's presented as this near-even neighborhood rug of war.
I'd like to see an actual
By Scratchie
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:06am
I'd like to see an actual poll on the subject. Every time it comes up around here, the pro-overpass crowd is extremely vocal about their "right" to drive as fast as possible through any neighborhood in the city.
I missed the meetings...
By c1josh
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:19am
but I do drive over the bridge regularly. To get around the rhetoric for just a moment I'd like to point out that the issue is not about how fast you can possibly get through some neighborhood, but how may people can get to their jobs in a reasonable amount of time. I wish that public transportation was a better option, then we wouldn't need as much infrastructure like this bridge, but for me at least, driving takes half the time that the 'T' does (and is much more reliable).
Perhaps
By BostonUrbEx
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:46am
Perhaps instead of having the ridiculous DCR maintained MA-203 should be MassDOT owned MA-203. Then maybe some MBTA buses could actually run on the road. The road is even wide enough that BRT could be implemented in a meaningful way, offering a circumferential route, and circumferential routes are what the MBTA is sorely lacking on.
What buses do you want to add on Morton Street
By Ron Newman
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 10:35am
besides the already-running #21 and #31?
I'm refering to DCR owned road
By BostonUrbEx
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 10:40am
MassDOT owns that end of 203. DCR still clings to the other end. I think the Jamaicaway and Arborway are ridiculous roads of the past. They could be more efficient and safer, for all modes, inclusive of cars as well.
I'll bite
By Sock_Puppet
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 10:54am
How could the J-Way be more efficient and safer?
I'm not saying it's efficient and safe now, just asking what specifically could one do to improve it?
1. Enforce speed limit
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:21am
1. Enforce speed limit
2. Change the rotaries to 4 way intersections with red lights
3. Return the inner bypass road between Jamaica Pong and the Arboretum so pedestrians can get between safely and cars cant speed between them and then suddenly have to slow (other than rush hour, which is most of the week, this is what happens)
why does this bypass road even exist?
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 12:09pm
There's no need for it - even during rush hour this has absolutely no benefit except allowing cars to drive 20-30 mph over the speed limit on a very short stretch.
Agreed that speed needs to be enforced (or even better - physical traffic calming measures - like more crosswalks, or even raised crosswalks) - motorists might be annoyed, but it would help traffic flow better during rush hour.
Easy
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:24am
Just build an upper deck on the J-Way for one direction of traffic!
And they could change the name too
By Stevil
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:38am
To the Tobin Way.
What part of MA 203 are you referring to?
By Ron Newman
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:40pm
It runs only from Forest Hills to Neponset, and the current MBTA service map shows one bus line or another on every part of it.
I'm a nearby resident, and I
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 12:55pm
I'm a nearby resident, and I support keeping or replacing the overpass, to make it easier to walk across the area (especially to the T station) without crossing a very wide surface road.
As a pedestrian, I'm not at all happy with the end result of other recent MassDOT overpass-removal projects, like Sullivan Square.
A signalized roadway carries fewer cars per lane per hour than an overpass. So in order to maintain traffic flow, MassDOT typically gives the new surface road more lanes than the former overpass. (The Casey is doing just fine traffic-wise with one lane each way. There's no way the surface road would be that narrow.) They also give the traffic lights very long phases -- good for getting a lot of cars through per hour, but really bad if you're a pedestrian waiting to cross. These two things make the area significantly less pedestrian-friendly.
Sullivan Sq is not a comparisson
By BostonUrbEx
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:33pm
Sullivan Sq was not redesigned with the removal of the overpass -- it was simply left wallowing in its filth and existing sadness. Sullivan Sq is due for an overhaul soon, however, and that will address traffic, pedestrians, transit, and aesthetics all in one design.
Forest Hills Station access
By Matthew
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:36pm
Actually, the project includes the construction of a new headhouse for Forest Hills Station much closer to the South Street businesses, north of where the overpass currently runs.
Access to Forest Hills will be vastly improved, from both north and south, after construction is finished. This is something that should have been done originally when they rebuilt the station, but better late than never, I suppose.
Regarding the wider, 6-lane, surface road ... well, MassDOT still has many stick-in-the-mud engineers who can't get their head out of their level-of-service ass. So that's something that still needs to be fought. But it's going to be way better than a new overpass, and way easier to fix. Keeping the current overpass is not an option at all: it is beyond repair.
Time marches on
By dmk
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 12:55pm
At the time the station was designed and later built in the mid-80s the Casey Overpass was not an issue, and it was also designed with the Arborway "E" streetcar in mind, though in the end the MBTA killed that beyond Heath Street Loop. In fact the casey Overpass support pylons are buried within. Those supports can be seen at track level from the Orange line platform, and they go down at least another 30 feet beyond that. Recent arrivals to that part of JP (like in the last 20 years) will have no concept of what the actual grade level used to be. That intersection at Washington and Morton under the bridge is a man-made hump in the road that didn't exist before 1983. The real grade is that of Hyde Park Ave at Tower Street.
A "new head house" is misleading. It will not be new, rather the area on Washington Street will be rebuilt to accommodate the Rt 39 bus and re-distribute the existing bus berths that now use the Washington Street side of the building. The current employee parking lot is being eliminated.
This will have traffic issues of its own. As of now only the Rt 38 has to cross Washington Street traffic to get into the station, but Rt 39 will be added. These extra buses trying to get into the station could cause a gridlock if the inbound lane is blocked by traffic stuck at the signals at the current bridge. Putting up signs that say "Do not block intersection" may not be enough. Indeed, that almost never works.
One must remember that under the Washington Street upper busway is the Orange Line platform and the "yard tracks" that extend beyond that, as well as 2 tracks of the Needham Branch MBTA commuter rail, so no serious structural changes will happen. What is there will be augmented within the structural weight limitations of the foundation under it. You'll get a new awning or extension of what is there now, a driveway cut or two, and new pavement. That's it.
Are you aware...
By 500Monkeys
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:37pm
(beat me to it)
Two part answer
By erik g
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:20am
Well, that's partially the fault of a small but incredibly vocal minority, and partially the fault of the contemporary reporting standards of print and television. This is the same standard of fairness that brought us the global climate change "controversy" and who give anti-vaccination advocates equal time. I've mentally shunted the pro-overpass crowd into the same slot: obstructionist assholes whose minds we will never change. Unfortunately, they're apparently really good at the "obstructionist" part, so we get to look at a huge crumbling eyesore for a while longer.
Not quite
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 10:24am
I think there is a definitely a very vocal, very visible group of people who are adamantly pro overpass, like the bike store guy.
However, I think there are many more people who are simply concerned that the traffic issues which will be caused by a street level solution are going to be much, much worse than projected. I put myself in this group. I don't use the overpass often, but do drive down Centre St to the J Way every day. I think traffic into the South Street rotary is going to be a mess for quite a while. I still believe a replacement overpass, at a much lower height would have been a better solution, but I accept that this is a done deal and can only hope that I'm wrong. It's a false equivalency to say the choices are street level replacement or crumbling eyesore.
With a major piece of infrastructure, I don't think that only the interests of the local residents should trump what is best for the city, especially in a case where the vast majority of residents in Forrest Hills moved there after the bridge was built. This seems more like moving to the Fenway then complaining about the Red Sox traffic. A healthy vibrant city needs some options to connect the various pieces together.
well said - this Roslindalian agrees
By Jeff F
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 10:54am
I'm not a traffic engineer, so I'm just hoping that the new plan works as advertised and bringing the strong north-south flow down to street level doesn't end up isolating the neighborhoods to the west from their main access to downtown. Between you, me and the dog, I think a lot of JPers would be just fine if it did.
Why would the JPers want to impede anyone's commute?
By Sally
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:07am
You make it sound as if there's some underhanded NIMBYism going on when what I see is people actually having a vested interest in an important part of their neighborhood in a broader way--not just as a pass-through for traffic or as a transportation hub. That area can be better--much better, not only for drivers but for businesses, T commuters, residents, pedestrians, cyclists, visitors to the cemetery, franklin park and the arboretum. I live on a street that gets a LOT of traffic coming from this area and so many speeders that cops regularly stage very successful speed traps. I'd like to see better managed traffic but that's not because I have an evil desire to make commuters from Dorchester and Milton miserable--I just want a safer street.
Clarification
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:23am
My objection, I guess, is to the viewpoint that the people who live in the vicinity of the overpass have more of a right to dictate the outcome of the replacement than people who use it, because those people are just drivers from other parts of the city. It seems to be a very locals only viewpoint, especially given the long existence of this overpass. I don't see it as NIMBY so much as an 'I don't care about impacts to the city beyond my neighborhood' attitude. We're not talking about knocking down a neighborhood to put in an expressway here, just fixing the existing, failing infrastructure.
If the at grade solution is a bottle neck, then traffic will simply start moving through all the other ways through JP, whether it's Centre St or Green St or Eglestone Sq. There's going to be more commuters on the side streets, not less I suspect. Again, I hope I'm wrong.
Can a pro-street level person explain the solution to this problem? Currently, you can drive from the South St. Rotary to the 'historic' one without stopping. With the at grade solution, this car will have to stop I would assume at least one light and that light will have to be long enough to give pedestrians enough time to cross the new wider street (six lanes instead of four, right?) This longer stop is going to reverberate through the traffic flow into the rotaries, jamming the other roads in and out of the rotaries as well as South St., Washington St. and Hyde Park Ave.
Business will die
By dmk
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 1:17pm
History will repeat itself.
When the current station was built in the mid-80s and the roadways re-configured (yes... this is not the first time...) the businesses on Hyde Park Ave rolled up the sidewalk and for a long time many of the store fronts were boarded up. Reason... construction prevented people from gaining easy access.
The concept of people walking or cycling is a great idea but should be something that is personally embraced. Imposing it on others is not acceptable. especially given populations that cannot cycle or walk due to physical impairment or age. It is a great philosophical vision but not one easily implemented on current society.
Of course if any of these people want to ride me on their handle bars let me know. PS - I don't own a car.
Construction and the aftermath will see many delays in buses just getting into and out of the station - same as happened in the 80s when the current station was built. It was a traffic bottleneck before and continued to be afterward. Anyone that has lived here long enough can tell you that. Newbies cannot possibly see or fathom that, but worse, they refuse to accept the testimonials of those who have gone before.
Unfortunate for many, while the immediate neighborhood has taken steps to improve their vision of their immediate neighborhood, few communities outside of that were truly engaged in the project, and had no opportunity to really understand what all of this meant and why they should attend planning meetings. Elected officials did their best.
MassDOT has a reputation of foisting their plans on people regardless of what residents want. Ask any neighborhood activist in Mattapan about the "28X" bus project. In the end however, the people did kill that plan. The T spending ARRA funds on the articulated buses for the 28X busway (think of a streetcar reservation with Silver line buses - diesel not electric) that never happened is yet to be resolved.
MassDOT frequently scheduled meetings in odd places and gave little notice of dates, and used times when fewer people could attend. They are to be held at a 10-foot pole distance and held in strict scrutiny.
You mean JAPErs?
By Stevil
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:39am
Didn't you hear? It's called JAPE not JP!
there's no E in plain.
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 3:06pm
this makes absolutely no sense - it would be JAPL - or pronounced "japple" I'm from the japple. or JAPN - or I live in the japan.
I don't think the at grade
By tenfortyseven
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:44am
I don't think the at grade road system will efficiently carry all expected vehicles as the State claims. More likely, a lot of the commuters traveling thru will avoid the new roads all together, the result being much of the traffic mess will just be shifted elsewhere, probably the smaller neighborhood roads. Glad I don't live there.
Obviously you don't live there.
By anon
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 3:39pm
How exactly can you cut through smaller neighborhood roads in that area? I think all of us would like to know.
If you lived through the last mess...
By dmk
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 1:47pm
If you lived through the last mess when the current MBTA station was built, you would likely not make that statement.
Maybe not right there in JP (not JAPL) or better-stated "Forest Hills."
Example - When Washington Street or Hyde park Ave gets backed up, people will use Florence Street to try to see if the other road is any better. It won't be of course but people will try anyway to get around the blockage. When that happened in the 80s when the current station was built, those who did not know the roads got an education as they went down street after street, some one-way, and some dead ends, trying to find a way out. Cars were clipped and dented and some people were struck. I lost track of how many people asked me how to get out of the area.
I avoided the construction area completely.
I went up over Centre Street to the J-Way skipping Forest Hills as did many. If I wanted Dorchester I went Cummins to Legion as did many.
People on buses won't have a choice. Bring a sandwich and bottle of water
You assume people using side streets will actually know them. They won't. The side streets will be populated with people who don't know where they are going and who are looking for a shortcut around the traffic jam.
One way streets? Really? Watch. People will be going the wrong way all over trying to sneak through, and the police don't have enough people to watch every street for that. Same thing happened in the 80s. Unfortunately, a lot of them no longer live there. They bailed.
Draw a 1/2 mile circle around Forest Hills on a map. All of those streets will be impacted.
Been there, done that.
3 reasons why you're wrong
By Matthew
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 3:15pm
MassDOT did plenty of community outreach. The community wants the overpass gone. The bridge dead-enders are in the minority. Get over it. This is not the 1980s, and thankfully, it will never be again!
Reasons why Shea Circle should go
By 500Monkeys
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:51am
The Shea Circle rotary was constructed long after the most significant historical period of Boston parkway creation. It destroyed some of the Olmsted-era routes that served as the southern entrance to Franklin Park. When the Casey Overpass was built in the 1950s, all hope of safe and sensible recreational connections between the Arboretum and Franklin Park for pedestrians and cyclists was gone. Because of it's large diameter, lack of lane markers or traffic lights serving any kind of traffic calming function - not to mention enforcement of speed limits - Shea Circle has one of the highest rates of car crashes in the state. MassDOT's plan for it - derived with ample community input and after studying many options - calls for slicing up the marooned island of land in the center and reconnecting the pieces to the surrounding parks and civic areas while creating a signalized intersection that provides safe crossing for pedestrians and cyclists and improved safety for motor vehicles. Significanly, their plan calls for the creation of a fine looking parklet to the south near existing housing. And it's overall net effect is to enhance the public's access throughout the historically important southern reaches of the Emerald Necklace. To me those public safety issues coupled with enhanced accesss trump the preservation of a rotary that is somehow on the National Registry of Historic Places (hence MHC's oversight).
http://arborwaymatters.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-ca...
The Casey Overpass was built to span three rail lines that no longer exist as surface-level impediments to car traffic: the old elevated Orange line, the South Street trolley turnaround to the Arborway Yard, and the elevated heavy rail line to Providence. The trolleys are long gone and the other two rail lines were sunk below grade in the Southwest Corridor trench more than twenty years ago. Now it is the bridge itself, with its abutments, piers, and ramps that impedes rational and easy routes for motor vehicles throughout the area. The Casey Arborway Project is designed to address all that.
The construction period will surely be no picnic for abutting neighbors (like me) or commuters who regularly use the Overpass, but the important thing to keep in mind is that with the bridge gone and that footprint freed-up the vehicle routes for all can be improved. MassDOT's plans, based on peer-reviewed data and formulated with plenty of citizen oversight and local knowledge, call for other very significant enhancements to the area. In addition to a tree-lined boulevard where a crumbling and unnecessary bridge now stands, there will be a new plaza with direct T-platform access at the end of Southwest Corridor Park, a renovated plaza on the Station side of the Arborway, improved access to the Forest Hills Gate of the Arboretum, dedicated bike and pedestrian pathways throughout, a newly expanded upper bus bay at the Station, the parklet south of Shea, and better recreational access to Franklin Park.
The MassDOT plans deserve and have the community's support. And they certainly deserve the Mass Historical Commision's support so that we can gird ourselves for the construction period, enhance and reconnect this broken portion of the Emerald Necklace and get on with the important work of healing the community from the lengthy and devisive process that got us to this point.
Thank you
By Sally
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:39pm
Your posts are always informative and helpful and unlike most of us amateur blatherers, you seem to know what you're talking about.
Thanks but
By 500Monkeys
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:49pm
I'm just an informed amateur blatherer who attended many of the meetings and read through all the material made available. Then I studied the deeper history trying to understand the divergent opinion within the community. That effort didn't achieve the desired goal... but I sure learned a lot.
It's not Shakespeare
By tachometer
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:28pm
But still more than I would expect from 500 monkeys banging on 500 typewriters to come up with.
Well maybe
By dmk
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 1:58pm
That has nothing to do with the design of the circle. It is due to morons who fail to respect the traffic laws of who has the right of way in a rotary. Same thing happens at J-Way and Centre. That one is scary.
The other day I was crossing a main street near a school. The crossing guard asked this kindly senior citizen if he wanted to cross. I said "sure" and she walked into traffic with her big-ass red stop sign and reflective vest and stopped all traffic.
Except of course the the blatant idiot who whizzed up behind me. When we yelled stop, he said he didn't need to stop because the crosswalk guard was only allowed to cross children - not regular people! Mind you, regardless of any of this, both of us were already standing in a crosswalk halfway across with traffic stopped on the other side.
So the circle has a lot of accidents? Sure thing, but don't blame the circle of dirt in the ground. That is not the moving part causing the accidents. The accidents are caused by living, breathing, breeding human beings who are allowed to vote as well, and who likely got their drivers printed up at Staples.
Of course, there are people who insist that the trees on the J-Way actually jump out in front of cars to cause the accidents. Based on MassDOt statistics, there may be some credence to that one.
So...
By OrangeKrate
Tue, 02/04/2014 - 9:23am
because people are idiots we shouldn't try to redesign roads that have high accident rates?
I honestly don't think the
By tenfortyseven
Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:54am
I honestly don't think the State listened to the pro at grade people more than the pro overpass folks. I think it came down to choosing the cheaper alternative.
Cheaper is better
By dmk
Sun, 02/02/2014 - 1:59pm
Yup.
And if the design fails, they will blame it on the neighborhood groups. What people fail to grasp is that teh no-bridge option was their plan all along. The public meetings are required by maw but that does not mean that they have to listen to it and do something different.
Same is true for many federal agencies as well.
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