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Decaying Roslindale gas station set to decay some more after BRA postpones vote on replacement condos

The BRA board had been scheduled to vote on a proposed 17-unit condos building at Weld and Centre streets tomorrow, but has postponed the vote to let the developer answer neighborhood concerns about its overall size and height.

Developer John Sullivan first proposed replacing the long closed Weld-American gas station with condos this past spring.

Residents applauded the general idea but said that at four stories, the building was too tall - in particular for residents living down a slope behind the building.

In a message to the Longfellow Area Neighborhood Association this week, BRA project manager Chris Tracy wrote:

Based on the dialogue at our public meeting on August 27 and the public comments received by the BRA we have asked the proponent to consider this feedback and respond accordingly. In particular, the BRA has heard from the community that the size and massing of the proposal is too large, therefore, we’ve asked the proponent to reconsider the size and massing of the building.

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Comments

"Housing is too expensive BUT DON'T BUILD MORE HOUSING OK!?!?!?"

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building $2,500 per month apartments is exactly what a working class neighborhood wants.

Let's try not to turn Rozie into another Southie, JP, C-Town yuppie neighborhood.

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You would prefer that all the multifamily housing that is affordable to families be bought up and renovated into luxury condos instead?

Because that is what will happen. Money can go into these, or it can take over your neighborhood.

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Worry about your N Shore suburb and well worry about our neighborhood.

Thanks,

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..we need the input of outsiders. there are still too many uneducated, cranky townies in boston. luckily that demographic is getting smaller by the month!

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... is getting old. (correction "has long since gotten old").

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The pot of gold windfalls repeatedly described are new. Many families who sold before, in the bleak urban flight period were lucky to get 70k for a multi family. That's about what my mother got in the early 70s for her Medford family home.

It was a 3 floor Victorian with lots of intricate trim on Manning Street, right near the river. It's probably at that windfall value level now.

Case and Shiller's research on home price trends is probably the most useful guide to boom and bust cycles. To assume there will always be windfalls is infantile. A decline trend bust cycle will happen. We haven't abolished those cycles.

So while you may gloat over big scores now, a significant downturn can make a hash of it fairly soon and a more nuanced and long frame view is a great way to get out of the rut of glib repetitions that eventually go south.

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You want a magic fairy to come down from outer space, wave a wand, and make brand new, energy efficient, modern apartments cost less than old, unrenovated POS apartments in 100 year old houses. Yes, they'll be more expensive than existing apartments. MORE IMPORTANTLY, yes, they'll help suppress rent inflation in existing units.

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Hey, my house was built in 1860. If your going to call it out as POS at least have the decency to get the age correct!

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Aren't these condos and not rentals?

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Expected asking price $475,000+

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I do believe Rozzie had a higher median single family home price last year than Westie, so yeah, way late there. Triple Deckers on Belgrade are going for close to a mil, and condos in 2 families 400-500k.

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and get out of dodge. Buy a cheap farmhouse in upstate NY or ME, or some bungalow in Key West and live like a KING! Boston has turned into a yuppie sewer, and the wave of yuppie-dom won't stop until the entire city is the Disney World of the North East. Boston as you knew it as a child is ovah! It will never be the same. People say "Build more housing, that'll change it!" Bullshit. The richest assholes on Earth have been moving to a few select cities in the US, and Boston's one of them. The area can't possibly absorb that much influx of money and keep a legitimate affordable housing stock. None of these new folks give a shit about Boston's "charm". IT'S GONE! This isn't Boston anymore, it's some Harvard, BU, Tri-state scum bastardization! Bulldoze all the triple deckers, all the old factories, keep the Paul Revere house and new people will still come cause they don't give a shit. They want fancy colleges, and gleaming buildings. Make money, man, and move somewhere normal, where normal people can live. It sure as hell ain't here.

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" Boston as you knew it as a child is ovah!"--- Good ! It was one of if not the most racist city in America. I have lived here my whole life and nothing makes me happier than when I go down to Castle Island or West Roxbury and see all kinds of people enjoying what this city has to offer. Are there things I will miss,yes,but in my mind the positive far outweighs the negative. If you hate it so much get out while the getting is good and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

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By Manny on Thu, 09/17/2015 - 8:33am
" Boston as you knew it as a child is ovah!"--- Good ! It was one of if not the most racist city in America. I have lived here my whole life ''

Grew up in Somerville
By Manny on Tue, 09/15/2015 - 2:49pm
''I grew up in Somerville. Spent the first 35 years of my life there and never had a desire to leave. I lived there when it was called Slumerville for legit reasons in some parts ''

Best of both worlds ?

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So I have to be in the city limits and not less than a mile from the border to be from Boston ? Ok, you got me. Somerville was so different then, when we crossed the city line the sun would come out and birds would sing.

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If those of us who actually live in Boston as long as you have Somerville started to pontificate about Somerville as if we lived there, talking it down and whatnot, would you be cool with that?

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How was the poster "talking down" about Boston? It was one of the most racist cities in the country. It's still one of the most segregated. It IS great to see people of all types at Castle Island. It IS great to see people of color be able to walk and through and live in West Roxbury. We shouldn't water down the truth and just bc the poster grew up in Somerville doesn't mean they aren't right.

Yes, I was born and raised in Boston - just in case you were wondering.

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...if it was accurate and you knew what Somerville's issues were. Was Boston not one of the most racist cities in America ? Has that not changed for the better? We can talk about Somerville's issues back in the 70's and 80's and beyond if you like. I don't wear rose colored glasses and think that all was perfect.
I don't get this "if you lived there" business. Was I unable to see Boston's problems from a few streets away ? Was Channel 5's news cast different in Somerville? Did I not see people move into Somerville from Boston to avoid busing ? Did parents from Charlestown not send their kids to parochial schools in Somerville to also avoid busing ? Did the Globe have a special Somerville edition? So the Winter Hill Gang wasn't a Boston gang because Winter Hill isn't in Boston? Get over yourselves.

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not like the same shit wasn't going on in Chicago, NYC, and it was obviously much worse all over the South. The 60's and 70's weren't pretty ANYWHERE in urban America, so let's move beyond that.

I see what's been happening gradually over the past 2 decades (give or take) in Boston is an absolute exclusion of the middle class, working class, and the poor/destitute of the city. Same as in NYC, DC, SF, etc. In a rush to make Boston a "destination" or "world-class city" the city's entire identity of the past 150 years (or more) has been steamrolled. Ethnic enclaves don't really exist anymore, and it can't possibly be a destination for newer groups of immigrants. At least not the way it used to be. Where could they possibly afford to live?

Newcomers always say "Cities change, get over it!" Yeah, well, this particular change is FAR out of step with what has happened before. It's not the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Chinese, or Vietnamese moving here looking for a new start in life. It's the coddled class from all over the US and the world.

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Are you serious? And yet, tons of 'diverse' people still moved here, even though the 'townies' were so mean and racist? The only unusual thing about Boston compared to other large east coast cities is it maintained a majority white population while orhers had greater 'white flight', and because it didn't become majority minority (today, the city is around 50/50) it's racist? Just like Seattle is racist because it's 'so white'? I lived in L.A., which is majority Hispanic/Latino, and I'm white non-Hispanic; I never whined about the fact I was a minority, and understood natural migration patterns. I'm white, grew up here in neighborhoods with whites, blacks, Spanish speakers, Asians, etc. My racist mom would tell me and my brothers and sisters to treat everyone equally and as individuals, and would meet and welcome new neighbors, regardless of the skin tone or ethnicity. And your post received 14 up votes? Sad. And you wonder why so many 'townies' are cranky and unfriendly. For such a mean, racist, cold, unfriendly place, we sure have a lot of people who come here to live, go to school, and work here. This is a huge country, with plenty of other cities, the majority of them could use a shot in the arm, because they aren't in nearly as good, thriving condition as the Boston (area), and they're cheap, much cheaper, to live in. Yet tons of people still crowd into this expensive, cold, racist, unfriendly city. Wow. Just wow.

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Your point? I still know people of color that won't come to live here due to Boston's reputation. It's still incredibly segregated and yes we were a well known racist city. Does that mean everyone one was racist? No. Try to look at it from someone that doesn't have white skin.

I had friends who still had bottles thrown at their cars while driving through Southie in the late 90's. I knew people from Southie (and no this isn't a Southie bash - just examples) that would piss on gay ppl when they tried to go to the infamous St. Paddy's day parade. Literally piss.on.them. Do you remember busing? DO you remember the hate that was spewed?

Yes, we are changing and that is awesome but we have been slow to change. That is just the truth.

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you do not remember that whole busing thing ?

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was implemented in a scandalous fashion, and did incredible damage that is still obvious today. And if you remember it it, than you remember the extreme levels of street crime and violence of the 70s and 80s, most of it not committed by white 'townies'. The violent crime wave that hit urban America in themid to late 60s, into the 70s, 80s, up to today, was well established by the time busing was implemented in the City of Boston (just Boston, a geographically small big city, none of the surrounding metro area). Most people in city neighborhoods not still over-run by this violence looked at places like Roxbury, and the massive middle class abandonment and redlining in places pike Mattapan, with horror. There was a HUGE amount of (more often than not unreported) violence committed by black perps, against whites (much more common than the reverse), and each other. Busing needless to say made the situation far worse. I can't believe any sane, intelligent person would defend busing today. It was a COMPLETE failure, and the people who fought it were correct, even though they were demonized by our very smug, class conscious elite (left, right, doesn't matter).

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To help this process along? I want fancy colleges and gleaming buildings.

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If Walsh steps up to the plate and supports housing in the neighborhoods then he really is committed to solving the housing crisis. If not, well, there's always 2017.

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Link to the PNF (for renderings):

http://www.bostonredevelopmentauthority.org/projects/development-project...

So, I like that it was kind of postponed, but not for the reasoning. The building is drab (at best), but such is all projects like this across the city I feel, so w/e. What I would love to see, however, would be for them to actually work with the existing streetscape - they should continue the ground floor retail around the corner, and have 3 levels of condos on top. Put the parking/entrance after the corner and not directly on Centre, and keep all the parking behind. Might need to bury the garage with retail/commercial/offices on the first floor, but, it would just flow so much better with the rest of that street.

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Is there a need for that there? There's already a lot of retail right there and there's plenty of empty spaces 'downtown' I'd rather have housing or parking for the housing.

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I guess your right - but AFIAK there is only one building with a vacancy and its upper level office space (from what I remember, haven't been down there for a few weeks). Just figure if they could tie it in with the rest of the commericial block and continue the street wall for the block it would flow way better - maybe just have one commercial space (for say a restaurant) that connects to the existing commercial with the rest of the run in door garage/non commercial facade.

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The City had ruled out accessing the property from Weld Street.

For those of us in the neighborhood; we would love to be at a point where we can get the developer to make the proposal more aesthetically pleasing....Our first priority is to get the size of the building to fit more appropriately to the neighborhood. Our second priority is the get the City to implement a traffic plan that does not further hinder traffic to the area; promotes better pedestrian access while not increasing parking issues in the surrounding residential streets.

We realize that the existing lot is an eyesore and are pleased to have someone come in and develop the land. We are NOT however going to settle for just anything that gets put in front of us.

I personally am grateful that the City did not just rubber stamp the proposal just because it was 'as of right'. Apparently the City representatives were listening very well at the community meetings. There is no doubt that there was likely a substantial amount of constructive criticism during the comment phase as well.

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I know the neighborhood well, I grew up near there and spent years going past there. Its pretty crappy compared to other commercial districts (Centre Street in West Roxbury around the rotary, or the Square), and the that has been a shit hole blighted plot for years. Isn't the ground contaminated, too? If they can build a building of that height by Roche's and Bellevue, they can build it there.

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Surveys found there is ledge that prevents putting anything too deep.

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Burying the garage adds a huge cost onto these kinds of buildings, kiss any pretense at affordability goodbye.

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of West Roxbury.

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Unlike the people who were mad about the Roberts St.building, this seems more reasonable. 2-3 stories might work better. Pretty much, most of us in Roslindale probably have a 3 story (including the roof) tall building next to where we live so that's par for the course.

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.. with no elevators (and essentially all of the grounds devoted to parking). It still looks like there may be unsold units in this development.

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And nobody what's to pay $500k to live smack in the middle of 2 housing projects.

Shocker!

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5 stories is hardly towering overhead. Nigh every building on Commonwealth Ave is 5 stories. There needs to be higher density in Roslindale and that means slightly taller. Such will drive transit improvements to the area and bring in more accessible shopping for those who can't drive to Roche or Stop and Shop. It's the way to motivate the neighborhood to be a viable, affordable area for people without cars.

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For example, the new buildings on Belgrade can and should be high because they are surrounded by commercial buildings and train tracks. The new building at the end of Cummins Hwy. is also tall given the site. In this case, I don't see a problem with accommodating neighbors in single family or smaller multi-family houses.

There are plenty more places to build tall, high density buildings without unduly impacting residents. For example, the bus lot by Forrest Hills, as planned.

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you would know the houses directly behind the proposed structure are about 15-20 ft below the grade of the land for the proposed structure.

So Ya, 3 stories is already like 5.

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This is not downtown. Roslindale is a mere 3.5 mile portion of a great City. We do NOT need buildings that mirror areas that are already more dense. I moved here specifically because the area was mostly low rise or small multi family homes while still being part of the City.

More housing does not promote more reasonably priced accommodations. We only have to look at some of our other City neighborhoods to see what a misnomer that is.

The outlying neighborhoods of Boston should be able to retain the charm that drew so many to the area. Roslindale is a neighborhood that is conducive to walking to shopping. There are bus routes that take you right up either Washington Street or Centre and Spring Street. We could use some ramped up public transportation, but we are not T desolate either.

Do you live here?

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is hardly a skyscraper. For a little neighborhood center, that seems wholly fitting and not out of character with the rest of the neighborhood. Density of this kind seems like the best way to preserve lively town centers (remember that when most of Roslindale was built, there was no Dedham mall, etc). That all said, it sounds good that the community is involved and the developer will be responsive to local opinions.

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Are you new here and referring to the "new" Dedham mall or are you trying to reference the old mall being built?

Also Weld & Centre is FAR from a city "center" as is Rozie.

Character of the neighborhood? What character does an apt building add to a single family/multi family neighborhood?

Yes there are CONDO'S across the street where evergreen travel once way, but that's not the same as an Apt complex.

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My point is that Roslindale was built before malls, big supermarkets and shopping centers. If you wanted groceries, you walked down to your little local grocer. Ditto butcher, baker, hardware store, etc. With competition from the Targets and Home Depots and Macy's of the world and more people driving everywhere, we have to reimagine these small neighborhood centers. And again, I don't believe that a 3-4 story building is any kind of threat to the character of places like Roslindale Square.

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Weld and Centre is over a mile's drive from Adams Park (the titular center of Rosi Square). It's directly across the street from the Arboretum's western meadow.

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in response to the original comment and thinking broadly of the resistance we keep seeing to denser/taller neighborhood housing. As I said, community process is a good thing and it sounds as if the height issue here is legit but 3-4 stories is not going to turn anyplace into Downtown Xing or ruin the character of a neighborhood.

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This is not a town center.

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Lol. I grew up in (and around) Rozzie. WTF are you talking about? It used to be the hood and in the past 10-15 years, yuppies (*cough*) moved in thinking it was an extension of JP/West Roxbury. I assume you are also part of the movement to keep chains out of the Square? News flash, there is already a 7/11, D&D, Dominos, Staples (used to be Ashmont Lumber), etc. Go away NIMBYs.

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Oh how I miss Ashmont.

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Back when you used to shop at Parke Snows? Did your gang get malteds at Brighams?

If you think Rozzie was ever the hood, you had a very sheltered life.

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Actually, no, I spent most of my time not being in Roslindale and being elsewhere in the city, thank you very much. And, I don't know, the Archdale was a lot worse, the projects on Washington St weren't great, the Square run down (hence the 'rebrand' to the 'Village'), out by Hyde Park ave (which is still hit or miss). Wasn't Codman or Uphams or Roxbury, but it was what it was before gentrifying. And, yes, I had a very,very sheltered life spending my formative years in pools halls across the city.

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Even in those horrible days of the 80s, one could get a CVS like experience at Rix, groceries at Kellehers, and the video games at the Spa where Romano's is were awesome. Archdale was never too bad (in fact, it is probably the most dangerous now than it ever was, which shows how dangerous it was) and unless you are claiming that the used car lot where the soccer fields are on Hyde Park Ave that was a chop shop is an example of "hoodiness", there's not much for you to throw your hat on.

Unless you are from West Roxbury, then yeah, Roslindale is the "hood."

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Compared to what it is today, it was worse and is much better. Lets just take this recent example (2012): http://www.universalhub.com/2012/police-somebody-had-quite-arsenal-rosli... . Thats serious business - had one friend from that street, and another grow up down the street (at the end of his was a crack house, since gone). Saw a play or two going down on philbrick/jewett. Few other things. And ArchDale is definitely not worse now - it had gone a pretty long time recently without a shooting. What you are saying is Roslindale wasn't blighted - its too very different things.

But, you know, like you said, I am just a sheltered kid and didn't spend all that much time around there - too busy playing pool, losing quarters at the old Downtown Arcade. Sure it wasn't Castle Square or anything - maybe we are thinking of two different time periods (80s/90s).

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Look, a lot of the people who grew up on my block ended up in bad places, but I would never call Roslindale "the hood." And why would you claim such a rough past by pointing to something that happened 3 years ago. I'm old. The double homicide on Washington Street over 5 years ago is "new" to me. Back in the 70s kids on my side of Healy Field used to go to Healy Field to fight Archdale kids. But no, Roslindale, compared to a very large swarth of Boston, is and has always been very safe and stable.

Now Jamaica Plain, on the other hand, or definitely the South End.

I will end all of this with this. Back in the late 1990s a female friend was living on Delford Street, a dead end road that begins at the Archdale Projects. I once asked her if she felt safe in the area, since for Roslindale, it was dangerous. She laughed and said that the only time she felt possibly unsafe was one time she was using the payphone at what is now Domino's at midnight and a guy stopped and asked the same question. She was born in Haiti and grew up in Dorchester. Yeah, the hood.

Vinny Chris has no teeth!

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I think we have varying definitions of the hood. I even outright said it wasn't anywhere near as bad as other parts of the city. I also said that incident 3 years ago was new, too - not sure why you are calling me out on that (or repeating what I already said)? JP, depends, like anywhere else, on what part. Egleston still isn't that great imho. The South End was straight up shitty though, I can't think of a redeeming section of it.

For the record, you started attacking me first by repeatably saying things like I was a sheltered little kid from Westie. And, yup, not as old as you, I guess you win. Either way, I agree, nothing more to gain here (its not even fun anymore). I have nothing to prove either way, and remember, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

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out of the term "Westie kid" being used as an insult here?

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He's Rozzie enough to be insulted by the claim of being from Westie.

You know, I kind of like this kid.

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;)

I feel I owe you a pint. No kissing to make up though - don't think my wife would appreciate it - unless you are actually Johnny Depp, at which point she might actually enjoy that...

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We are not discussing Roslindale Square and whether or not there should be chain stores. If residents don't want chain stores; they will not patronize them.

As far as the Weld American site is concerned; you damn well better believe NIMBY! I do not want large scale development in my back yard and will exercise my right to prevent it.

My family has lived in Roslindale for almost 60 years. We work toward Roslindale being a neighborhood for any and all families to live and enjoy life. Even when things were gritty it was still a family neighborhood. That's what we want and will continue to work toward.

When you are a homeowner or resident of the neighborhood your opinion will matter. For now, you are only noise pollution. You want to live in a building that is 4 stories or more tall - that has a plain, boring, sterile interior - all the power to you. Live in a location that has all those fine amenities waiting just for you. Leave my neighborhood alone.

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And my family has been in the Rozzie area longer than yours (3 generations). I personally moved to a different side of the city and actually own a 100 year old house, thank you very much. 4 stories isn't tall, get over yourself. Don't worry, I am sure it won't hurt your property value and the condos will be priced high enough to not let the 'undesirable' in. Large scale development? its 17 units, all 2-2.5 bedrooms which is family friendly, as far as I can tell from the floor plans there aren't any studios or 1 bedrooms at all. You want to keep it a family place, this is how you do it, otherwise its just developers buying up triple deckers/two families for 900k+/550k+ for gut renos and flipping them for 450k+ a floor - great way to price out families, or working class people like my grandparents were when they moved into Rozzie from Dot.

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not a meadow of wild flowers. As I said above--it's important to get neighborhood input and all and it sounds as there's plenty of room for compromise but this isn't a towering glass building or a housing project and the current site isn't pristine or historic or particularly attractive. The more I read the less I'm understanding what people are objecting to.

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I heartily agree that the Square is for foot traffic. But we absolutely need more density to keep the Square alive. For most people, if they don't live within a couple blocks of shopping, they won't walk to it, and they (stupidly, unless they have disabilities) drive instead. Even 3-4 blocks -- they drive!! It's like people forget what feet are for. (and that driving costs at least 50-60 cents a mile once maintenance, insurance, payments etc are factored in)

Rozzie Square will NEVER sustainably fill all the empty storefronts with anything other than chain stores unless many more people live close by and are walking back and forth (and thus shopping) on a regular basis. I am all for any housing that is put up close to the Square. Traffic is potentially a problem but these days plenty of people don't need or even want a car. Stick 10 Zipcars next to each building and you're good.

I actually wonder if a lot of the traffic issues around the square have to do with other issues than housing -- I'd love to see a study of where people are actually coming from and where they are going, and why they chose that route. There must be a better way to organize traffic in that area.

The location of this proposed development IS walkable to the square, by the way, if you are willing to spend the unbelievably inconvenient 15 minutes or so it would take to get there.

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A TON of the traffic issues in the square are all the busses. There's probably 20 bus lines that go through there in some fashion. Add in people double parking on Corinth, and random peds who duck out anywhere across the street, and it's a nightmare.

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If we're talking about height can we discuss the tragic waste of space all those 1-story buildings in the square are? You'd think we could get some of those renovated, especially now that the landlords have driven out most of their businesses with high rent.

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Knock down the old Bob Pita's building (which apparently is a disaster in need of serious reno anyways) and put up a 4 story building please.

The apartments above Redd's should start construction in a few months after their patio closes for the season. It's a start.

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that showed the late 19th buildings of 2-3 stories which look perfect to my eye for a modest Main Street. Retail/businesses/offices on the first floor, offices and residential on the 2nd and 3rd. And now they're mostly one-story. When and why did that happen? It does seem like a waste of space.

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A lot of the one-story buildings there used to have two or three stories. I think the upper floors got torn down in the 1960s and 1970s by landlords who just didn't want to deal with maintaining decaying floors they couldn't rent out. At least in Roslindale Square, there's talk of adding the floors back - look at the battle royale that ended with Tony the butcher getting ready to move down Washington Street.

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Transit improvements? Ahahahahaha.

The masses have forgotten about what happened in the winter as it is. You don't hear a peep from them as they have been lulled back into a sleepy state.

The Needham line isn't even back to the their regular pre-storm schedule. It's September.

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Sure, the times have changed by a few minutes for each run, but that is because of the lightning back in June.

And you might be new to the area, but in my lifetime (45 winters) only a few have come anywhere near what we endured last winter, and none were even close.

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Born and bred here my friend. I've been on the T daily since I was about 10 years old - over 30 years now. Orange line, red line, green line and buses. The fire was actually in April. So if they can't fix a signal issue in 6 months when the weather has been perfect what do you think is going to happen this winter?

Yes, last winter was a crazy scene but in the last week on the CR alone my train has been late twice and then got stuck at FH with no ETA on when we would be able to move forward. 3x in a week. This is normal. Maybe you are ok with it but alas I am not. Again, this is all happening when the weather has been good.

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Don't make the same mistake like all the development in Southie. The BRA relaxed the rules on parking creating a parking nightmare. Ask anyone foolish enough to buy property in a Southie without parking.

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...24/7 resident parking would help a lot but for some reason people oppose it. smh.

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This development has close to 2 spaces per unit (17 units/29 spaces) and exceeds the site's zoning requirement for on-site parking. Parking is not an issue with this development. If there's any occasional parking congestion on surrounding streets, it's due to Kelleher's patrons on weekend nights which has nothing to do with this proposal and will remain in place regardless of what happens here. The surrounding residents could choose to institute resident-only parking on their streets to mitigate this if they want to, that's their call though.

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Is it really a good idea to built residential units over a former gas station? Has the land been decontaminated?

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Yes.

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Let's get it straight: "new" is not automatically better; "development" is not automatically improvement. We've held this neighborhood together for decades and now we're going to victimized for our success? How is that fair in anyone's universe? Two stories is the maximum height already in this neighborhood - and that's how it should remain.

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How in the world do you make a triple-decker with just two stories?

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