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Local UI expert now hates her Nest thermostat
By adamg on Mon, 02/23/2015 - 9:28pm
Kara Pernice writes she is sick of a stupid gadget that thinks it's smarter than she is:
When I turned the dial to increase the heat to 66 degrees, rather than responding by making the house warmer, or by informing me that it is now working toward this, it read, "in 1 hour and 20 minutes 66 degrees until 10:00PM.” The next day the house temperature plummeted to a punishing 50 degrees (I realize I may be spoiled) for no reason I was privy to. Here, by the way, is another usability heuristic not heeded: visibility of system status.
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Comments
Why exactly might that be?
Why exactly might that be?
Local blogger now hates posts with content.
n/t
News in brief!
Fixed, sorry about that.
Drama
That's a whole lot of dramatic writing for a broken piece of electronics. She turns it up, it doesn't work, so she gets a sweater? Doesn't look for troubleshooting advice online? Doesn't submit a warranty claim?
#FirstWorldProblems ...
#FirstWorldProblems ...
Her perseverance in this time of adversity is truly inspiring.
Sounds like she needs her
Sounds like she needs her heating system serviced, which would have nothing to do with the Nest.
The Nest "predicts" how long it will take to heat to a desired temperature based on past performance, so if the system is struggling, the predicted time will be very long and not necessarily accurate, because it's referring to the last time it called for heat. If she has a hot water system, for example, air can form bubbles and keep heat from circulating to upper floors.
Anyway, the issue probably isn't the Nest's UI. And unless it's a totally integrated thermostat, vs. a device that is really a cleaned-up version of an old thermostat (with the same inputs as an old thermostat), nothing will give her what she wants (because what she wants is a thermostat which will tell her to get her system serviced).
Signed, I am also a UI expert, but I don't blame system issues on my thermostat.
Seriously?
When I evaluated some environmental engineering proposals recently, there were a number of tech device expert types whose proposals were shot down because they couldn't tell the difference between a measurement and a prediction, or why one needs the former to validate the latter, or even how to set up a measuring plan for spatiotemporal model validation.
If you can precisely measure temperature, why would you want to predict how long to run the system and assume that temperature was reached? Predictions are valuable where you cannot easily measure everywhere, but a thermostat in a house is not that situation. Particularly when the time to heat up a house will vary with the outside temperature (and how much snow is packed around it ...) Bayesian systems need validation information - and, in this case, could probably use external as well as internal temperature to refine the model.
Now I'm glad that I kept my technophillic mate from buying one.
I am not a HVAC expert
But my understanding is that all current heating systems have something called "heat anticipators," which stop the heating before the temperature actually reaches the set point. Otherwise, the temperature would overshoot. I don't think this is any kind of high-tech algorithmic prediction thing, probably just a combination of a timer and an offset from the setting.
The "swing" setting
I set my thermostat to turn on at -3 from the setting, and it turns off at +1.
That way, it comes on if it is 65F in the house, and runs until it is 69F, and usually coasts up to 70 or 71F.
That's different from "estimated run time".
There's more to it than that.
The heat anticipator is different from the swing setting. The heat anticipator is, in effect, a little thermodynamic model of the house -- one that does not, unfortunately, take into account outside temperature or wind or sunshine, but that does take into account the temperature of the air, the temperature of the walls, and the lag in the system delivering heat. Old thermostats did this electromechanically, with a tiny heater inside the thermostat that shut off the call for heat before the room reached the target temperature, and shut it off sooner or later depending upon how cold the walls were. Newer thermostats (including the middle-of-the-road one in my house that I bought 20 years ago at Home Depot) do it with multiple sensors (one for the wall and one for the air) and a bit of logic circuitry. And the learning is separate from the heat anticipator: Even my 20 year old model had some learning capability -- if you set the house to be 68 degrees at 6:00 AM, the heat goes on about 5:45... and that's not a fixed lag, but rather one that the system converged upon over time.
Glad somebody knows
I'm glad somebody knows more about it than I do.
The case for prediction
If you want it to be, say, 68 degrees when you wake up at 6:00, you need to know when to start the system; that requires some level of prediction. Simplest case is that the thermostat knows a "minutes per degree rise" number that it can use to calculate when to start, given the current temperature, the target temperature, and the target time.
Good point
So, if it is so smart, why doesn't it know the outside temperature, too? It should be able to crunch a multiple variable problem with several input variables. It should be at least taking an input from Wunderground's nearest outdoor monitor.
What I found annoying was that it had no provisions for taking inputs from remote thermometers ... sometimes, you want the system run off your coldest room (as in "on vacation in winter and don't want pipes to freeze anywhere").
For $200, it should also have an activity or occupancy sensor ... or ways to give it additional input.
read the link below
It has alternatives to NEST.. one of which has remote sensors.
Really interested in that. I have two very cold rooms. Would be very useful for this.
It does do that
It asks for your zip code and gathers weather information from the internet. But you can attach a remote sensor.
It does have an occupancy
It does have an occupancy sensor for the room it's in, and it has support for additional inputs... in the form of installing more Nests in other rooms, and then it will try to be clever in using those additional inputs.
The key annoyance of the quoted piece is more that all of the "cleverness" is opaque; it has no ability to explain itself.
Its owned by advertising
Its owned by advertising giant Google now, what does she expect?
Nice zing....?
Nice zing....?
Not sure what your point is, though. Nest is still largely operated by the same people before Google acquired them. And while I can't speak for others, any google-designed products and services I use never seem to have issues :|
Share and Enjoy!
I was an early adopter of the electronic thermostat that I could program to turn the heat up and down at appropriate times, and override as necessary. 24 years ago, these cost $100 or more - but we cut our heating bill in half the second winter in our apartment!
I have gotten better and cheaper ones as time has passed.
The Nest concept is nice, but it always put me off somehow - maybe I've dealt with enough Bayesian modeling systems to be distrustful. Also, why? $200 for something that a now $30 thermostat does really well?
50F? That isn't dangerous to a human, but it could result in any number of burst pipes in the current temps. Sounds like she should turn it in for a refund or replacement. Or, maybe, change the batteries ...
There's no batteries to
There's no batteries to change. Which tends to be one of the things that can cause an issue in and of itself.
The Nest has a number of documented problems, so I wouldn't be too surprised if it's involved somehow. For a long time they claimed that you can use a nest without a C wire(so thermostats with only 2 wires), but what it actually does is rapidly cycle on/off hoping your boiler/furnace/etc won't respond fast enough to actually turn on. This is so it can pull power from the R and I think W wire to charge an internal battery. It could potentially damage your equipment by doing this if you don't realize what it is doing. I think they at least mention that in the manual now when you get one.
this is
This is exactly why I won't get one, along with not to keen on my home heating being connected to the cloud in that manner. I just think you're asking for trouble..
I actually was told that older heating systems just do not work well (forced steam) with Nest.
I have a 35 dollar RiteTemp one (which National Grid gave me a 30 dollar coupon for so it was 5 bucks), which does a good job at controlling the temp. Its rare we ever have to touch it, except when we're home when its normally set to 62.
Reasons I was never tempted to buy it
When I first read about the Nest I decided there was no way I'd ever buy a thermostat that took control like that. I have an idiosyncratic schedule and it was obvious that wouldn't work with a device that wants to predict what you'll want. I'm very happy with my old manual thermostat.
All I ever wanted was a smoke
All I ever wanted was a smoke alarm that would text me when it went off, not that I'd know what to do if it did text me.
My new heating system of individually tuned hot water radiators in each room will beat the pants off the Nest any day. I have to turn them down manually if I plan to abandon ship for a few days, but it becomes habit much like turning off the lights. Central air is just a crock.
easy fix
I was about ready to punch my Nest in the face for taking a bunch of energy-saving liberties while I was out that always culminated in me coming home to a house that had fallen to the thermostat's minimum safety temperature. In my case, 62.
The fix: Set the minimum safety temperature to 68 degrees. Less efficient, but warm. Problem solved! Desperate times call for desperate measures.
Whenif it ever becomes summer again, I'll let it save me all the energy it wants by turning off my a/c during the day. But until that day comes, its decision-making privileges are revoked.Sounds great
Problem solved by not using any of the features you paid a huge premium for. Where can I get me one of those?
The only reason to buy one is
The only reason to buy one is that you can remotely control the thermostat via an app. If you heat a house you aren't at very much you can turn the heat down when it's warm and up when it's freezing and your pipes would burst otherwise.
Another reason to buy it
Also, it's really cool looking. Bad software aside, ya gotta give them that.
It occurs to me that paying for internet...
at a house you're not at very often probably kills any savings one would gain over simply setting a manual thermostat at a very low level and keeping it there.
Reviews of programmable thermostats
Boston Building Resources has a blog post about the Nest and two other Wi-Fi thermostats. The blogger's conclusion is that the seven-day programmables are good enough given their lower cost and proven performance.
http://www.bostonbuildingresources.com/advice/thermostats-good-better-be...
great article
thanks! Might check out the non-nest alternatives.
I still would like the feature of adjusting the heat remotely... if nothing else.
I just leave my manual
I just leave my manual thermostat all the way down by default (which means about 55 -- plenty warm to keep the pipes from freezing), set it to 60 for sleeping, and set it to 65 if I'm going to be home and awake for a while. It's really not that hard.
I like to joke that any kind of programmable thermostat is a placebo device, since it's so hard to do things like turn the heat up or down.
On the other hand, my friend installed a Nest in his elderly mother-in-law's house. Last night he was notified that the room temperature had dropped to 45 even though it was calling for heat. So he was able to call a technician to have the heat fixed before the pipes froze. That's a major benefit of a thermostat connected to the Internet.
I just leave my manual
Isn't that special?
It is kind of hard for normal humans to adjust the heat if they're asleep. Or not home. That's why people buy programmable thermostats, but they're not super-evolved and extra-special like you are.
It's not hard
It isn't hard to turn the heat up or down with a programmable. On mine, I just push a 'warmer' or 'colder' button until it shows the temp I want, then push the 'hold' button. That overrides the program and maintains that temp until I press the 'run program' button. Definitely not difficult.
Maybe I missed pressing the
Maybe I missed pressing the "hold" button. Or maybe it looks like I've changed the setting, but then nothing happens to the actual heat in the room. I also miss the feedback when a bimetallic strip thermostat thumps as it switches on or off -- that tells me just how much to turn up the heat to get it going a little.
Then there's the electronic thermostats in public spaces with no accessible controls at all. Whenever I've called maintenance staff because the room is way too hot or cold, they've been unable to do anything about it once they see that it's this type, rather than an older mechanical one.