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Groups propose an Arboretum gateway in Roslindale Square and new path to Forest Hills
By adamg on Tue, 03/08/2016 - 9:34am
Proposed pathway entrance at Roslindale Village train stop.
WalkUP Roslindale, Livable Streets and Tufts University are proposing a new bicycle and pedestrian path that would let people get from the Roslindale Village T stop to Forest Hills without having to step foot on Washington Street.
The proposed path would run on MBTA owned land along the Needham Line tracks, then travel along the eastern edge of the Arboretum to the existing Bussey Brook Meadow path to Forest Hills.
Washington Street is unpleasant for pedestrians and unsafe for bicyclists; the Gateway Path will provide a better alternative to reach Forest Hills, where walkers and cyclists can avail themselves to the many amenities around Forest Hills; continue on to the Southwest Corridor Park; or board the Orange Line. ...
Current routes from Roslindale to Forest Hills through the Arboretum have steep hills and are more than twice as much distance as the proposed path.
The groups have an online survey up and will hold a "visioning" workshop on the proposal at 6:30 p.m. on March 30th at the Roslindale Community Center.
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Comments
Sounds Great!
I would love to see this become reality.
Good use of unused land
You can go from the Roslindale Station to Forest Hills without using Washington St, if you go up either Arborough Rd or Fairvew St which connect to the trails in the Arboretum. With that said, as the piece noted, those streets have very steep hills along the way. If this trail avoided most of those climbs, it would be wonderful and heavily used.
Arboretum Gateway Path
The path will avoid the hill!
Looks great
As with all bike paths, I'd love it if it was primarily used as a bike path vs. a hey I'm going to walk my dog with the extending leash or walk side by side with my friend and our strollers path. There are lots of great paths in the Arboretum and Pond for that.
I'm interested to see that a path could fit along the Hemlock Hill side of South St. In my recollection that hill drops right down to the road there fairly steeply?
Agreed
I agree with your sentiments. I deal with these scenarios on the path marked for bicycles daily on the southwest corridor. I don't know how this could be enforced though...
Bicycling along walking paths is also an annoyance
I agree that with using a biking solely for biking. But in the stretch from JP to Forest Hills too many folks don't care to respect distinctions between paths walking and biking paths This is especially true along the path parallel to the English High. Too many folks ignore the signs noting which path is for bikes; they also seem oblivious to the obvious that the bike path is wider for allowing biking in both directions. But then when on my bike I can not count how many times I have fantisized spraying walkers with skunk spray when the are blocking the bike path along the SW Corridor..
A path from Roslindale to Forest Hills might mirror the Minuteman Path which, for better or worse is a path for walking, jogging, strolling and biking. But if there were two paths from Rozzie to FH then, assuming the frequent inability of walkers and bikers to repect distinctions, at last the overall traffice on the two would hopefully keep the congestion on either path to a minimum.
Nevertheless I would still be tempted to spray eau de skunk around walkers on bike paths (and vice versa).
are bikers just bikers
because they can't get along with others? Can't relate w humans and so can't get a job that pays for a car?
Um, what?
This is a path proposed to make it safer/better for people to use their bikes as a method of transport from Roslindale to Forrest Hills. In that context, people using it as recreational dog walking path or whatever isn't a good thing. As Waquiot noted, walking to Forrest Hills from Roslindale is not impacted by cars/buses/traffic in the same way.
You might was well argue that bikers should just ride down the sidewalks of Washington St because why can't the pedestrians just get along with them.
What part of
combined bicycle/pedestrian path do you not understand.
Fair point
I had missed that part of the description as I was thinking that the bike link is what is badly needed vs. a nice walking path.
The issue for me is that a bike path is easily degraded by too much foot traffic to the point where is it a recreation vs. transport asset to a community though. Another nice place to walk is not badly needed in Roslindale compared to better transport links.
And I appreciate your point
abotu a bike link being degraded by too much foot traffic, even if the path is intended for mixed-use.
Time of Use Separation
The Minuteman serves many purposes depending on what time of day people are using it. You get dog walkers and recreational joggers in the early morning and few cyclists, followed by heavy bike commuting use, and then elder and dog walking at mid day. Then you get school traffic and evening commute traffic, followed by more dog walking and after work jogging.
Most conflicts hit on the weekends, which is when the faster cyclists tend to get out early or just avoid the path altogether.
Drumpf
n/t
People in their enclosed
People in their enclosed steel boxes honking at everyone get along and relate to people??? Not everyone wants to be a sucker and hand their paycheck over to Exxon Mobil. Not everyone wants to be killed by a texting driver, hence the need for bike and walking paths(preferably separate so no one gets hurt).
Not at all
I have a good job and a good car. I choose to bike to-from work because of environmental concerns and quality of life benefits (health, exercise, fresh air.. .etc.). Biking in and around Boston is getting better every year for several years now.
Let me flip it around - are car drivers just car drivers because they can't get along with others? It seems to me like most drivers these days would rather be texting, facebooking, tindr'ing, etc. while driving than actually paying attention to the road. Also, drivers are generally either in state of rage - on the verge of going postal, or just flat out inattentive and clueless. That's hardly representative of a group of people that get's along with others.
You would love it if everyone were more like me!
Because I'm a wonderful car driver! Never ragey! And I'm so respectful as a pedestrian. And when on my bike, I never ride on the sidewalk, and when on mixed use paths, I always shout "on your left!" when overtaking pedestrians. You'd love me.
I'm totally hearing this in Donald Trump's voice.
Now there's a man who's probably never been on a bike.
Not sure if serious comment
Or ridiculous parody trolling.
The updated proposed
path map has the path on the southern side of South St. and not on the Hemlock Hill side, so it would be at-grade.
Not a bike path...
As advertised it would be a mixed use, bike and pedestrian path. And while I agree that some dog-owners are completely out-to-lunch when walking their dogs, I also frequently see bikers get overly belligerent and escalate what could be solved by an "on your right" into a "get off the path, douchebag!" Also, I've been nearly run over on four occasions by bikers ignoring red lights over the last two years. These would have been life-altering impacts as the biker was traveling at full speed when they ran the light. Suffice to say, interacting with Boston bikers writ large has negatively impacted my opinion of bikers in this city.
I'm a biker and a dog-owner, if that makes a difference.
A Great Idea
Who is paying for it? I have lots of great ideas for the T (Trains that work, etc.) but if the bike path takes money away from GLX or the saving of the Mattapan line, you have to question its viability.
You have a transportation corridor here, through land owned by the T, going through land owned by Harvard, that is leased by the city, with DOT money needed. I'm sure an adroit state senator or two coupled with a few smart state reps can get the money, but DOT is going to counter that Route 128 needs a few more ramps to save suburbanites 1.5 minutes off of their commute time.
Well, the Needham line is
Well, the Needham line is eventually going to get choked into nonexistence by increasing traffic amongst other parts of the corridors and South Station expansion project going nowhere. When that happens, they'll be looking at litigation from WX and Needham (who got weekend service returned by suing for lack of access). But if they have a nice bike path that gives the state more support to not do a train project, because while busses aren't enough hey busses plus bikes is the same as real transit right? So doing this may save money in the end.
There was pipe dreaming of
There was pipe dreaming of extending the Orange Line to Needham in this corridor, what happens to that idea when the money trees start blooming again? I rather see the old trolleys come back from Heath , cut through the Arbs , and use this corridor.
The trolley lines have been
The trolley lines have been ripped up in pretty big chunks, so getting the GL back would require new tracks -- and, practically speaking, removal of parking on Centre street. JP will never let it happen. OL is Rozzie/WX's best bet.
Thus the pipe dream , but the
Thus the pipe dream , but the trolley tracks back to the Arborway were supposed to happen , but.......
And the O line extension is more viable than many other ideas floating around, the Southcoast Rail thing one of them. At least there is a critical mass of demand there.
The MBTA has full ROW for
The MBTA has full ROW for commuter rail AND subway at least down to the square, so if they wanted to run a spur it would literally be the cost of a station and a handful of signals. Even expanding the ROW further down (which would include a couple bridge jobs) would be more on the scale of a pared-down GLX as opposed to Trolley to Arborway, which would essentially be building a whole new line.
DCR Territory
Isn't this DCR territory, not DOT? Thus DCR would theoretically foot the bill?
Nope
The T is part of MassDOT, obviously, and the Arboretum is owned by the city of Boston - with a 1,000-year lease for Harvard.
It's worth examining
I do take exception with the characterization of Washington Street, as I walk from the Forest Hills to the Square every day and see many cyclists commuting as well. That said, a path separated from the street would help drive bicycle (and foot) traffic, which is a great idea. And since at Forest Hills the Southwest Corridor Park begins, they would basically be extending that by a mile or so.
Of course there's people who
Of course there's people who do commute on bike right now, but there's no denying that the crazy traffic and tight, unpleasant corridor of Washington isn't ideal. The nice thing about bike paths is they present an attractive alternative to people like me who want to bike but aren't strong enough cyclists to feel safe doing it in mixed traffic.
But unpleasant for pedestrians?
Sorry, it is not.
My only issue comes at Ukraine Way, but that is because I don't want to wait for the walk portion, and as a sometimes driver I don't want to hold up traffic, and lastly those taking right turns tend not to stop and wait until it is clear. Ukraine Way to Healy Field, on the other hand, is not a bad walk at all.
Just because it is a bunch of triple deckers full of minorities and light commercial doesn't make it unpleasant.
But as far as biking goes, I cannot comment on that except that people do ride it with the bike lanes provided and my wife dislikes riding it.
I mean I personally find
I mean I personally find walking through shaded nature preserve to be more pleasant than having cars and busses zoom past (or not, and belch exhaust right onto the sidewalk where I'm walking)
But yeah, there's no significant safety issues walking up Washington. That doesn't mean a bikepath isn't a great idea.
Oh, it's a great idea
People would very much prefer walking through nature to walking along the street, but I think this proposal (and you) are overstating the state of Washington Street.
Erm...
Triple deckers full of white people would make it no more pleasant to bike on. Aside from being treeless and not too visually charming, it's also kind of potholey, crawling with traffic and buses, and for various reasons, both drivers and peds don't behave well much of the time there--lots of jaywalking, speeding, double parking, no signaling, and several busy parking lots that people tend to zoom in and out of.
Just because it is a bunch of
I think that's clearly not the intent of that statement on the site. It's in the context of how heavily-trafficked and congested Washington St is, which I think we all acknowledge. Not referring to who does or does not live there. I walk it a lot too and find crossing it difficult and avoiding cars trying to dart out of side streets an exercise as well.
I'm sorry, I just don't see it
And mind you, I am 100% in favor of this path.
Other than Ukraine Way, I've barely had trouble with intersections. Maybe because I walk on the Healy Field side of the street, but the only times I consider the walk unpleasant is when it is raining, it's too hot and/or humid, or when the sidewalks and intersections are not clear of snow (no, the cold doesn't bother me). I don't see how they can do anything about the weather.
I really don't want to seem obtuse about this, but every afternoon, there I am, 18 minutes to the Square, 23 minutes to the door, and I love it.
Washington Street
I like to ride my bike from Roslindale up to JP with my kids sometimes. While I don't mind riding on Washington Street by myself too much, I absolutely view it as unsafe for kids.
I have to admit
I do not love the bike ride to or from Roslindale to Forest Hills. Partly the road conditions which could be improved (and some of them will be as part of the FH work) but also because of the buses, speedy, careless drivers, and also a lot of cuckoo pedestrians--there's just always lots of erratic activity on that stretch. I would LOVE to see an alternative, and I'd be happy to share with walkers too, though I'd nix the extendable leashes and lungeing pooches.
We're missing the bigger point here
...which is that there's a million-dollar opportunity staring us in the face: software that lets architects add human beings to renderings without making them look like posters for a David Lynch film.
Great Idea
Fantastic proposal, particularly with the commuter rail single ride from Roslindale about to increase to $6.25. Quick and scenic hop over to Forest Hills to save money and hopefully relieve some congestion on Washington St.
Would be great to have a
Would be great to have a dedicated pedestrian path so those walking don't have to constantly be looking over their shoulder for a cyclist whizzing by shouting ON YOUR RIGHT! Sometimes you just need to take a relaxing walk after a long crappy day at work... no offense to cyclists.
Like almost the whole rest of the Arboretum and Pond?
Or any sidewalk in town?
As the bike activists on this
As the bike activists on this site love to point out, the Arboretum paths are mixed use. (ie run for your life you poor pedestrian suckers, we important bicyclists are trying to win a Strava segment here.)
Bicycles in the Arboretum
are allowed on paved paths only. That is a rule that is so often ignored and I've never seen a park ranger call anyone out for violating it. And it's not only the kids on their dirt bikes riding down narrow steep paths for fun, I regularly see the "commuter" biker cutting across the grassy areas especially in the Levintritt Shrub Garden.
I am grateful when Arboretum cyclists ring their bells or say "on your left/right." I wish more would do that. I have been startled and almost hit more than once.
dogs in the arboretum
I have had much more problems with dogs in the arboretum, negligent owners who let their dogs go off leash. This is not enforced at all by the city or Harvard. Ive never had a bicyclist jump on me, I have had off leash dogs do so.
Sorry
you've had this experience. I walk in the Arb usually twice a day and have never had an unknown dog jump on me.
Animal Control and the Park Rangers patrol regularly. I've seen park rangers almost every day for the past month.
People who don't control their dogs are bad news for everyone, including responsible dog walkers, especially since they tend not to pick up after their dogs. But there has been a marked drop off of dog walkers on the Bussey Hill side of the park. I can often walk 30 minutes and never see another dog. Now toddlers running full speed at my dog . . . that's another story.
Not always sure to ding or not to ding
When I'm biking on a shared path/walkway I'm not always sure when to ring my little bell or say, "On your left". Why? Well some people react in horror and inadvertently end up more in my path.
When there is "sufficient" room to pass safely I usually don't bother, since even a single bell ring will cause the walker to look over (usually with a surprised look.) I don't want to come off like I'm saying, "Here I come! Out of my way!" I really DO want to share the path and if making my presence known makes everyone feel safer, then great. The worst reactions are A) I ring my bell and the walker shoots me the death look and makes an exaggerated jump "out of the way" OR B) I don't ring and, even though I'm no where near even brushing past, they are startled and lash out in some way.
Bottom line: It's hard to be polite and courteous to everyone, since everyone has a different version of what they expect from me.
If you ring
your bell behind me, I'll smile and wave and say thanks!
When biking on the SW
When biking on the SW Corridor I'm hesitant to call out "on your left!" anymore, because I've found that 90% of the pedestrians walking on the bike path fall into two categories:
-they have headphones in and don't hear you anyway
-they are startled and turn around, almost always stepping to their left, i.e. right in front of me. I will admit to having hit pedestrians once or twice because of this. It feels safer to me to just silently pass them if there is room. Though the safest thing would of course be them walking on the parallel pedestrian path instead, as that is why we have two parallel paths.
Which sidewalks in Boston don
Which sidewalks in Boston don't have cyclists? I've lived here for over 15 years and walk pretty much everywhere I go -- bikes are always on sidewalks along with pedestrians.
Bikes, yes
Cyclists? Fairly rare, actually. I work downtown and don't much see it. There really isn't much room on most sidewalks and many are crappier than the roadways by far.
I will occasionally ride a half block or so on a sidewalk to avoid a wrong way or horrific construction situation, but only at the speed of the pedestrians (and because walking the bike takes more space).
Boston has not gone to the same trouble that Cambridge and Somerville have when it comes to banning bikes from sidewalks in some areas. Sometimes we get forced onto the sidewalks, but must remember at all times: Bikes are Guests on the sidewalk.
Great idea....now off topic
Adam can you post about the marijuana legislation being discussed today? I'd love to hear/read the uhub communities ideas.
Back on topic, this would be cool for the residents and even if there is come added cost, it'll most likely be worth it.
I would love to have a nice
I would love to have a nice way to walk to Forest Hills from my house near the square! I am generally very pro-walking but Washington St is so unpleasant as a pedestrian that I avoid the short 1.2 mile walk from my house to the train. And seeing the way people whip around the corner under the Archdale arch makes me not want to do the Bussey Brook Meadow path/ South St dirt shoulder of the road/ South St residential area route.
How is it unpleasant?
I walk it every day. It's not that bad at all. In the summer the triple deckers and trees provide some shade, which is great when it is hot. There's a slope at Ukraine Way and a much gentler rise between Bexley Road and Cummins Highway.
Is it really worse than Belgrade Avenue or South Street in Jamaica Plain? I think not.
Unpleasant was the wrong word
Unpleasant was the wrong word. I just think that if there was a more shaded option available (especially in the scenic Arboretum, which I love) I would be more incentivized to walk.
Sorry but yeah it is
Washington is noisier, busier and the street is in worse condition.
But the sidewalks are the same
And that is my frame of reference.
If they only discussed the bicycle situation, I wouldn't have my dander up on this.
I say...
Since there's already a bike lane on Washington, I say save the money and don't build this. If they have to build it, either make it pedestrian only or incorporate physical separation between cyclists and pedestrians (like on the SW Corridor, but without relegating pedestrians to the crappy old sidewalk while bikes get to enjoy a path through the park). I'm sick of Boston cyclists treating every mixed use path as a superhighway or a drag strip.
Washington street is a nightmare
Last time I was in a bike lane on that segment of washington street, I nearly got throttled by several buses... I avoid that segment at all costs, even with the bike lanes.
*headdesk*
Bike lane on Washington Street? Ohhhh, you must mean the second parking lane (dedicated solely to livery vehicles) next to Forest Hills, and the right-turn-only lane onto Ukraine Way next to the Harvest.
Now you're thinking! That way, pedestrians could walk the entire 1.6 mile path along a hilly, indirect route, rather than on the existing sidewalk that goes exactly where they're proposing.
Ah yes, sidewalks--long the scourge of the pedestrian, who would benefit greatly from using a paved tarmac surface, rather than that ignominious concrete located 6 feet away.
Why, Jake, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were trolling for some kind of reaction here.
Seems to me...
Like I fired up my trolling motor and caught a whopper.
It comes from a place of honest critique, though. Mixed use paths are no safer for pedestrians than bike lanes are for cyclists. We need physical separation between modes. As you can see from many of the comments on this post, cyclists are already clamoring to prohibit pedestrians on this hypothetical path, because we might force them to slow down. Kinda like drivers argue that bikes shouldn't use the street, because drivers might have to slow down.
My beef with the SWC isn't concrete vs asphalt, it's the fact that pedestrians are PROHIBITED from using the park through much of its length (English High to BPD headquarters, except for two one-block stretches). The park is for bikes, while pedestrians have to walk next to the street. The author of the post I linked to about the separated tracks in the SWC documented the frequency with which pedestrians use the bike path and astutely noted:
I hear ypu
there are certainly d-bags who ride bikes as well as d-bags who drive cars, but really? How many peds have been injured or killed on bike paths by cyclists? And I speak as someone who both walks and bikes on them frequently. There are some speed-demon cyclists, ambling distracted pedestrians with cellphones and children and dogs that they're not paying attention to...I've had all sorts of close calls but nothing life threatening yet.
I'm also not sure what prohibitions against peds there are between English and BPD hq--this just isn't true.
Depends on what time frame and areal unit you pick
Deaths: Zero in Massachusetts.
How many nationally? I think there was one in NYC central park a couple of years ago.
Most injuries are not reported because they are minor, but they certainly outnumber deaths. I've seen some studies of it, and they are not common on ways separated from traffic. Collisions with motor vehicles are the biggest death and injury source for both pedestrians and cyclists.
Seriously - that's about it.
Just to give an idea of scale, here's a result from an analysis in Australia.
Source
So the standard for
So the standard for pedestrian safety is whether or not pedestrians or people will limited mobility are killed by cyclists on sidewalks and in crosswalks? That's depressing. Walkability matters when it comes to quality of urban life. People who care about their neighborhoods actually give a damn about such things. Congrats for not killing anyone as a cyclist!
ummm...
Go check out the signage sometime.
The signage is vague
Yes, there is a figure of a person walking pointing one way and a bicycle figure pointing the other way, but there is nothing that says cyclists cannot go on one path or that cyclists only are allowed on a certain path. I think a lot of people just view them as suggestions, and suggestions that are often ignored by those not on bicycles (the cycle paths are much nicer except along Columbus Ave by Northeastern.) On the other hand, while cycling along Cherry Creek in Denver, there were signs that distinctly say bicycles only on one side of the stream.
I don't think that cyclists
I don't think that cyclists would agree that these signs are optional suggestions, though I don't know for sure what the DCR would say. I (like you, I believe) am a distance runner and often run the length of the corridor... and yes, the bicycle paths are much nicer than the pedestrian sidewalks.
(And for the record, I agree with you about there being nothing wrong with the sidewalks along the Washington Street corridor.)
Oh, I run on the bike lane
And I've never had a cyclist take issue with that.
Runners are generally okay
The problem for a cyclist riding in a mixed use zone is the unpredictability of many of the slower route users. Walkers tend to suddenly move perpendicularly without warning, skaters use the entire path as they swing back and forth. Both are hazards to a bike coming from behind, because we just don't know whether they will suddenly be in the space we plan to use for passing. Runners, on the other hand, follow a straight course. I don't mind them. I very much mind dog walkers, baby carriages, people walking side by side, anybody with ear buds who won't hear my bell, etc.
Speaking for myself, when I am walking in the South West Corridor, I stay off the bike path, either opting for the less appealing sidewalk, or walking on the grass. But if I'm running, yeah, I'll use the path, and stay to the right hand edge.
I don't even own a bike and I
I don't even own a bike and I know the Washington Street bikelane is used primarily for:
Busses to stop and load/unload without pulling all the way into the stop
Cars to double park
Cars to single-park whenever it snows and the street doesn't get plowed to the curb
Trash
Washington St. Bike Lanes Suck
They are very dangerous:
Very often, when I ride on Washington, I stay in the car lane. I find that to be safer much of the time. The Washington St. sidewalks, though also too narrow, are much less dangerous, as there is a buffer of parked cars between the pedestrian and moving traffic.
This will be a public good.
This will be a public good. The southwest expressway was not going to end at Forest Hills. Why then did the alternative southwest corridor park with protected separate bike/walk paths stop at Forest Hills?
Whoville deserves equal access to safe, beautiful, speedy, healthy, active transportation commuting and recreational facilities.
Love it!
I can only speak for myself, no idea how this affect the general picture of bike ridership in the area, but Washington st. is a big no-no for me (mostly due to the number of potholes, annoying for a car, deadly for a bike) and the current route through the Arboretum is great for a relaxed weekend, but it is not direct enough for everyday use (and very hilly!). I would use it.
As long as I'm trolling...
This morning, I saw a cyclist pass a tractor trailer on the right while the truck was turning right. Luckily, the truck was going slowly, so it just resulted in an annoyed trucker, not a dead cyclist. The truck was the first vehicle waiting at a red light, then initiated a right turn when the light turned green. The truck swung wide and was angled into the side street at about a 70 degree angle and just starting to cross the crosswalk when the cyclist came up along the line of traffic on the right and whipped around the front of the truck.
WTF is wrong with people?