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City council not the only thing on Boston ballots tomorrow: There's also a referendum to change Dudley Square's name

WBUR reports on the non-binding ballot question tomorrow that seeks to change Dudley Square's name to Nubian Square.

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Of the Dudley family's connection to slavery?

I'm guessing that since the Dudleys were white men, and since they can't speak for themselves, it's okay to assume that they were the stereotype taught over the years.

I mean, that's what we do now, right? Make assumptions based on the stereotypes associated with groups of people?

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Does it matter?

As the article states:

Dudley Square boasts a diverse population, comprised of a 55.6% Black and 22.4% Latinx residents, according to the 2010 census. The Nubian Square Coalition believes that the name change more accurately reflects the people who call the area home

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But yes, perhaps a campaign that lead off with "why don't we rename the square something the black folks in the area can look with pride" would be better than a campaign that lead off with "Dudley was into slavery, so we must remove his name," but that's now how they did it and that's how they are selling it. They saw that its the name of a dead white man and decided that that fact, in of itself, was wrong.

And sure, 55.6% does sound impressive, but back when some folks wanted the area to be where the city hall of the City of Mandela would be, that number was a lot higher. Give it another few decades and the Black and Hispanic numbers will be reversed. The one thing my years in Boston have taught me is that when an area starts getting named for an ethnicity, it's a sign that that ethnicity is declining in the area.

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something the black folks in the area can look with pride

Like I see through the whole fragile oppressed white male victim complex you're trying to weave here but this is a pretty bad take.

They saw that its the name of a dead white man and decided that that fact, in of itself, was wrong.

You have a source for this or are you just assuming?

The one thing my years in Boston have taught me is that when an area starts getting named for an ethnicity, it's a sign that that ethnicity is declining in the area.

Ahh another assumption I see.

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Have you been following this at all? Have you seen what the proponents have been using as their arguments.

Yes, someone is definitely playing the victim here, which is understandable, except the culprit in question has been assumed guilty in the eyes of the proponents with scant evidence to support the contention that he did anything.

By the way, welcome to Boston. When you visit "Boston's Little Italy," I hope you have enough Italian to get by.

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They saw that its the name of a dead white man and decided that that fact, in of itself, was wrong.

Please provide a citation for this quote. Unless you're just assuming this is what the proponents are saying? Gosh can't image that you'd editorialize to make it seem like oppression of white people or whatever.

I mean Chuck Turner testified that Dudley had such political influence at the time that he was '“obviously involved in every aspect of the Puritan political action,” including upholding slavery."' That and his son enacting runaway slave laws in the colony. Do you have evidence refuting this? Won't somebody think of these dead whites guys legacies?!

Still, pretty hilarious that you demand evidence while making statements that are clearly your personal opinion.

The one thing my years in Boston have taught me is that when an area starts getting named for an ethnicity, it's a sign that that ethnicity is declining in the area.

So anything backing this or nah, just more galaxy brain takes? Its the North End, I'll be walking over there for lunch. Never heard anyone call it Boston's Little Italy but thats pretty anecdotal but then again, very little references to that name to be found. It also used to an Irish neighborhood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Next!

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Kambon has also been on the vanguard of other name changes, namely for the change of New Dudley Street to Malcom X Boulevard. "We're inundated with names of former slave owners like Warren Street, Ruggles, Codman, Columbus."

I mean, it's in the article Adam linked to above. I could have done a small amount of deeper research, but there's your quote right there. Dudley was a slave owner, except that there is no proof that he was. Again, I'm sure that people in the Dudley Square area are down with the idea that one can be accused of something, even by tenuous connection, when there is no proof of it, no?

As far as Turner's assertion, I would say that the former councilor, too, was obviously involved in every aspect of Puritan political action, but again, without proof, that's just an assertion. The best he's got is that Dudley was around when slaves were around.

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They saw that its the name of a dead white man and decided that that fact, in of itself, was wrong.

"We're inundated with names of former slave owners like Warren Street, Ruggles, Codman, Columbus."

That quote is about Warren Street, Ruggles, Codman, Columbus being named after slaveowners, do you refute that they owned slaves? Also, think I caught you tangling your narrative, remember there is nothing in that article about Dudley being a slaveowner or not.

"The primary reasons why we've got this campaign is we want to take down the name of a family who supported and advocated for legalization of a law to enslave African people,"

Oh and then theres the bit about his son signing runaway slave laws. Still nothing in there about the motivation being because they were white lol

I mean, it's in the article Adam linked to above. I could have done a small amount of deeper research,

Please, indulge us!

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For example, I see Dudley being brought up alongside “other slave owners” (a clear implication) while you don’t. I ask for proof that Dudley had anything to do with the slave trade, and the answer is to not show proof.

This morning I pondered where the proof is for the claims that he was a slave owner or was personally connected to the slave trade. This evening I still don’t see proof. These people have been working on this for years. Perhaps they should have found the proof before making the claim.

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"other slave owners" doesn't appear in that article or anywhere in this thread, where did you conjure that up from?

See your hammering away at this point about because you don't wanna identify the real issue with Dudley, that he was part of the colonial government, governor and deputy governor at multiple points, during a time that slavery enabling laws were passed.

Its right there in front of you, you being willfully obtuse doesn't change that.

But hey just for fun:

In 1641, Massachusetts passed its Body of Liberties which gave legal sanction to certain kinds of slavery.[10]

"There shall never be any bond slaverie, villinage or captivitie amongst us unless it be lawfull captives taken in just warres, and such strangers as willingly selle themselves or are sold to us. And these shall have all the liberties and Christian usages which the law of God established in Israell concerning such persons doeth morally require. This exempts none from servitude who shall be judged thereto by Authoritie."

Wiecek notes that the reference to "strangers" is derived from Leviticus 25: 39–55 and explains that they could be ruled and sold as slaves.[10][12] For the Puritans and citizens of the colony, "strangers" would eventually mean Native Americans and Africans.[10] Even though the Body of Liberties excluded many forms of slavery, it did recognize four legitimate bases of slavery.[10] Slaves could legally be obtained if they were captives resulting from war, sold themselves into slavery, were purchased as slaves from elsewhere, or were sentenced to slavery through the governing authority.[13] This made Massachusetts the first colony to authorize slavery through legislation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_Massachusetts#cite_n...

https://www.mass.gov/service-details/massachusetts-body-of-liberties

Timeline
May 6, 1635
The first committee for the laws comprised of Governor John Haynes, Deputy-Governor Richard Bellingham, John Winthrop, and Thomas Dudley was formed to "frame a body of grounds of laws, in resemblance to a Magna Carta" (as recorded in John Winthrop's journal)

May 25, 1636
Another General Court assembled and Governor Henry Vane, Deputy-Governor John Winthrop, Thomas Dudley, John Haynes, Richard Bellingham, John Cotton, Hugh Peter, and Thomas Shepard were entreated to make a draft of laws "agreeable to the word of God, which might be the fundamentals of this Commonwealth, and to present the same to the next General Court."

Thanks for playing!

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Why did that happen, named after Ben Franklin in 1980 the residents wanted to
change the name to "Harambee Park" Swahili meaning "pull together"
Why don't we just rename everything.

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How is your pronunciation of the natives American languages doing?

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And what did the First Peoples call it?

If you want to play that game, you might want to brush up on your local native languages.

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I really can't name any, but the residents must have someone. Nubian??
I mean O'Bryant School, Melena Cass Blvd., Bruce Bolling has a building . I don't know
some Black Religious man??

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Oh you're almost getting it.

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(never gets old)

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Is it just because it sounds cool?

I'll vote for it if they spell it Noob-ian.

Dudley Square is old school and original.
#SaveDudley : )

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Youre name says you in Dorchester, why do you feel you have the power to decide what another area changes their squares name to?

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I have a vote though, which is what I said.

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There was a store named Nubian Notions that was the heart of Dudley since the 60s. Earlier this year or maybe sometime last year it was closed (gentrification rent hikes) so the name change is homage to what used to be the pillar of that community. Hope that clears it up

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That Nubian Square was the only possible option.... there's been no true process to generate a name that more of us would embrace.

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... has a lot of important state (colonial) history behind it. Named after one of Massachusetts' earliest governors (whose last home was in Roxbury and who is buried there):

Thomas Dudley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dudley

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It's historic. Just saying.

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Out of curiosity, what is the process for getting a proposed name change for a part of the city on the ballot?

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Hypocrisy is always interesting. Why don't the Nubians get a pass?

. While they were the victims of slavery, ancient Nubia, also known as the Kingdom of Kush, also utilized and traded slaves. Modern day slavery has persisted in the region through the 21st century, particularly during the second Sudanese civil war, which ended in 2005

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I copied and pasted text from somewhere. It must be true - I copied it and pasted it in a quote box. That completely settles the argument with truth, because TEXT.

Of course, we have no idea of whether this came from a history text book (modern or 50 years old), a 1868 encyclopedia, or an English translation of Mein Kampf!

In other words LINK TO YOUR SOURCES PLEASE.

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Wow this article got people all kinds of racist, I mean mad.

Having read the article it seems like Walsh knows this will "lose" (reading these comments I guess he knows the voters of Boston) but also wants to see the vote take for Roxbury itself to see if a name change should be studied.

For folks who are confused about why "Nubian", this is a great article about the history of one reason why, having to do with people's experience in the area over decades.

https://www.baystatebanner.com/2016/04/20/a-nubian-notion-to-close-doors/

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The Nubians were as bad as the Dudleys.

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Fast forward say 50 years -- Nubian Square is in the midst of a vibrant community of say Pacific Islanders who have been displaced from their home islands because of Climate Change induced Sea Level Rise.

On the ballot for the election is the proposal to change the name of Nubian Square to some important Micronesian Leader from the past or perhaps to memorialize one of their islands now only visible at Neap Tide

The suggestion to change a name tied fundamentally to the history of not just Boston or even Massachusetts but all of North America -- to a name which has some at best minor resonance with some people who are possibly temporary inhabitants in the area -- makes no sense

Its even more illogical than the naming of Cape Canaveral after the John F. Kennedy -- which did happen temporarily after JFK's assassination. Thankfully more sane heads ultimately prevailed and Cape Canaveral name which went back to the days of the Spanish Conquistadors*1 was restored with only the NASA installation called the Kennedy Space Center.

Finally, as has been pointed out by others -- the Nubians [or their descendants in that part of Africa] have been slave Traders and Owners for Millennia [with some indications that the practice is still happening]

*1
from the Wiki Cape Canaveral

In the early 16th century, Cape Canaveral was noted on maps, although without being named. It was named by Spanish explorers in the first half of the 16th century as Cabo Cañareal. The name "Canaveral" (Cañaveral in Spanish, meaning "reed bed" or "sugarcane plantation") is the third oldest surviving European place name in the US. The first application of the name, according to the Smithsonian Institution, was from the 1521–1525 explorations of Spanish explorer Francisco Gordillo.

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