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Harvard bars men from gym

At least during certain hours to accommodate some female Moslem students. Miss Kelly suggests why this is a bad idea, including:

... It's sex discrimination, pure and simple. It would be unthinkable to announce that men are "uncomfortable" working out alongside women, therefore Harvard is going to limit some gym hours to men only. It's likely against the law in a federally-funded institution. So how on earth is it acceptable to discriminate against men? ...

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Comments

Harvard could get around this issue by
requiring both sexes to wear head-to-toe
Burquas while working out.

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I’d have to agree, as there’s many milder forms of Islam where this wouldn’t be an issue (as I’m sure there’s some radical forms of Christianity that would see this as an issue).

Look, you can never accommodate everyone, and your goal should be to provide the most people with the most options. Limiting male / co-ed time at the gym doesn’t do that.

If anything, Islamic women should use their time here as students to learn about our views and what's socially acceptable here, as they may then take it back with them and become the next Bhutto someday…

A place of education shouldn't be making accommodations for anyone’s religion, because it's a slippery slope. What’s next, limiting class discussion about Islam, barring pictures of Mohammed?

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If they feel so uncomfortable, why don't they just walk down to Porter Square and join the women-only gym, HealthWorks?

Tolerating other religious beliefs does not mean we should tolerate their discriminatory and unjust practices.

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if women-only gyms are considered legitimate and non-discriminatory, why are women-only hours in gyms different? Harvard, like HealthWorks, is a private institution.

Though I do wonder if the Harvard gym would offer an equivalent number of men-only hours.

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Harvard accepts federal dollars. Title IX and all that ...

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If you forego the sexual discrimination, might you be liable for religious discrimination?

Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com

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Not if you treat everyone fairly, without bias to religion. If anything this is religious discrimination also, because they’re attempting to force others to conform to the wishes of Islam.

Saying only Christians can use it would be religious discrimination, saying everybody can while it goes against some relions views, is not discrimination, but the opposite.

They’re trying to institute discrimination in the veil of their religion, and it shouldn’t be accepted just as we shouldn’t accept the 10 commandments on a courthouse courtyard. It’s interjecting religion into a secular sector.

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that separates women and men, other conservative religions, and societies, do as well, including some in mainstream America. We also have women-only schools and colleges.

And the #1 reason not to go join another gym is probably that a membership to the Harvard gym is included, when you are a student there, whereas they would have to pay to join Healthworks.

What is important to note are which hours are being set aside? (it's not clear from the link) if they are 'prime-time' hours, then I can see a cause for complaint. But if the gym is accommodating the requests of some of its members in off-hour time, I think that's a reasonable compromise. The better compromise seems to be how BU's gym (again from the link) can set aside areas of the gym for certain groups.

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This is hilariously backward. Imagine the possibilities. The Orthodox Jews can lobby for a new gym, no menstruating women allowed. Gay-free workout hours for traditionalists of all stripes. Wiccan Fridays, only thirteen people allowed in the free weight room at a time. Except I don't think Wiccans work out.

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Accommodating such a request opens the doors for others, and it begs the question of where the line is to be drawn.

While I'm not a Harvard student, I can say that the prevailing attitude in society is for inclusive facilities, and the burden to make special accommodations of this nature is on those who demand them.

If you go to Harvard you can expect to enjoy the facilities offered by the university without question. If you simply cannot tolerate the presence of the opposite sex or some other group, you are free to make the extra effort needed to separate yourself from them on your own terms, through your own efforts. As others have mentioned, Healthworks is just down the street.

Limiting a huge percentage of the student body from access to Harvard facilities seems to be a knee-jerk response on the part of those who are rightfully worried about showing the kind of blatant disregard for other cultures that we've tried to break from after centuries. Yet it appears as though in their desire to do good, they've taken it to an extreme, and forgotten that they are not operating in a cultural vacuum. There is another, dominant culture that views this sort of exclusionary practice not simply as a strange idea, but as a strong negative that goes against many years of hard work and struggle within the larger culture. Which is not to say that a dominant culture should always have the balance tipped in its favor - we've seen the dreadful results of that - but any accommodation made should be looked at in a broader context.

While the beliefs and practices of other cultures should be respected as much as possible, it is not logical to blindly accept each and every practice and belief, and place limits on the majority to further them. While this risks a trip down a slippery slope of cultural superiority, the alternative is no better. In that case, we simply accept anything and everything because a few people declare it to be acceptable. Co-existence is fine, but when you make demands of others, and limit their behavior the slope is equally as slick.

Cultural adaptation goes both ways. We should be open to other ways of living, but we should expect the same from others. Are we not told cautionary tales of ignorant Americans who travel to other nations and expect them to behave like Americans?

The reverse applies.

You can't expect every aspect of your culture to be accepted in the larger culture you are entering into, especially when it flies in the face of one of the most significant movements in that culture and most importantly of all when you are making demands on the larger group and restricting their behavior. This is why the notion of a private, women-only health club doesn't bother me, but a large institution imposing such a thing within its own confines most certainly does.

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What about the Jewish Little League team in Colorado? Should they be forced to forfeit a Saturday game (in a league that has banned Sunday games)?

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However, if I were the coach of whatever team they were supposed to face, and I found out that they had been rejected in favor of a lesser team, due to their not playing on the Sabbath, I'd ask my own players if they might be willing to show solidarity by refusing to play the game on the Sabbath also.

Suldog
http://jimsuldog.blogspot.com

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I support the team, and here is why:

- It's a one-time accommodation.

- The league has already made an accommodation in the exact same manner for the exact same reason. An accommodation that I assume to have ruffled no feathers, and become an accepted policy.

- There is no reasonable argument possible for someone to find the accommodation damaging to the social environment. (Unless they're an anti-Semite, but who cares what they think?).

- The accommodation itself isn't taking something away from anyone. I'm assuming they've had no problems up until this point with the scheduling the games during the week on account of the fact the league doesn't play games on Sunday, and the team in question hasn't played a Saturday game up until this point.

In Harvard's case, you have what is essentially sex discrimination, and a move to impose a social order of "women and men cannot coexist" in an institution where such a thing has not been accepted, and has been actively rejected. The little league case is essentially a scheduling debate with no additional issues coming along with it.

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As a male harvard student, member of the harvard gyms, and a registered libertarian, this should right piss me off, but it doesn't really bother me. Granted, I don't use the QRAC where these hours are being set, but even if it were at the gyms I do use, I wouldn't have any difficulty adjusting my workout schedule to it, just as I set it to the other 8 hours of the day it is closed. I'm there for an hour or so a day, a few days a week: what happens during the time I'm not there I really don't care. The gym is open quite long hours to accommodate me, I see no problem in it using a few hours a week to accommodate these women.

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Pierce, admirable sentiments, although at this point it doesn't inconvenience you, as you say. It probably does inconvenience other students, who reasonably expected to be able to use the gym whenever it was open.

What if the ladies come back after the trial period and say that six hours isn't enough? (You can be fairly certain that that will be the case.) What if they want ten hours a week? Or twenty? What if the students who work at the gym during the women-only hours have to be women? Where will the line be drawn?

How many students get inconvenineced for the handful of students that are accomodated?

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I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the outrage here. It's not like Harvard only has six evercise bikes that these Muslim women are hoarding at the expense of everyone else on campus. It has 2 major gyms--of which the smaller and lesser-used one is the one with the women's hours. Plus, almost all of the upperclass dorms have weight rooms with basic exercise equipment that can be used at any time. Believe me, this is not a major inconvenience to the student population.

That said, I believe Harvard Hillel created its own weight room for Orthodox women who were uncomfortable exercising around men. Perhaps the Muslim women could find a space and petition the Undergrad Council for funds for something like that?

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It has 2 major gyms--of which the smaller and lesser-used one is the one with the women's hours.

Right there is the reason this is okay and legal. If women had 1 hour more each day to access fitness facilities, there might be an issue (depends, though, on a few other factors). But based on the above, there is not a single moment of the day when a woman can work out that a man can't.

Nothing to see here folks.

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Harvard just threw nine families into the streets of allston and construction on the womens gym in underway.

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First of all, I doubt any of the responders here went to Harvard except for that one fellow who seemed not to be bothered by it. The rest of you philistines go to pieces over nothing.

Harvard is a private institution - last time I checked, so were many universities. Is it discrimination if you have an all women's floor? I'd wager most people here are self entitled white people (who couldn't even get into Harvard) and their outrage is foolish.

Now, a generally better solution to the situation is one of two things - reduce other student's sports fees, or perhaps make one gym women's only. Limiting a few hours as a consideration to a certain religion is not the end of the world; in case you forgot Mass had these crazy ass laws like not being able to buy booze on sundays...and when I was a kid stores were closed on Sundays. Riiiiight.

If this directly affects you, because you are a student, write the dean. If you aren't currently attending Harvard, shut your hole. The rest of you don't need to worry; I'm sure the gym at Framingham State will still let you in.

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1) I went to Harvard. The degree in Medieval Literature did me a lot of good, believe me.

2) There are no sports fees, at least not for basic gym services.

3) I don't know if there are any all women's floors anymore, but there were definitely all-male floors when I was an undergrad (1996-2000), and they were most often the 1st floor of a dorm, in case 'intruders' got in.

4) There's a great diversity of religions and cultures at Harvard, and it was one of my favorite parts of the school. I honestly never remember there being much of an issue in the way we accommodated each other. It wasn't about being rigid; it was about being flexible, and I think the students and administration did a pretty good job of respecting each other's differences.

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Thank you very much - see, an informed opinion. I went to BU, we had sports and ticket fees and all kinds of nonsense - it was part of the big 'misc tuition fee' pile.

At BU in the early 90s, there were a few 'specialized' dorms and facilities; I remember one of my lab partners was on an all girl floor and they were all baptists in warren towers. It wasn't the 'norm' but the fact that the school was willing to accomodate is what counts. The only part of BU that bugged me was not enough girls in the ENG programs. =)

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But I must confess -- I spent little time in its sports facilities.

I was pleased by Pierce's post (both in tone and content). I see no problem with the accommodation being made in this instance.

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Grad and professional school students do pay a fee, that differs from school to school. I could be wrong but I think there is a fee that undergrads pay, it is just worked into tuition/board/etc at the beginning of the semester.... kind of minimized expense through mandatory membership.

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First of all...HAHA... this is laughable...you act all condescending about how people don't have a right to an opinion about this issue because they didn't go to Harvard...and then in your next post we find out you went to BU. I went to Tufts, and have to say that this is type of discrimination is commonplace and outrageous at higher ed. institutions. For example: at Tufts, the sexuality center is called the LBGT Center. (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender). Where is the "S"? Well the straight kids can deal with their own sexual problems or questions, while the minorities have their own department and faculty to go to. Similarly, there is an Asain house, a Black house, a womens house, a Hispanic House, and so on. Yet the Greek system comes under continuous fire for being largely white.

This is the exact same B.S. that is going on at Harvard. No one cares if a student from the majority has a problem, nor do they really care if a minority student has a problem. All they really care about is not looking bad, and appearing to be overflowing with tolerance.

Additionally, isn't college supposed to be preparing you for life post-college? Schools like Harvard and Tufts are the most tolerant and excepting places on the planet; yet these students still found something to complain about because it didn't conform to their archaic (and oppressive) religious beliefs. Imagine if the Orthodox Jews Males at Harvard said they couldn't work out because there might be a menstruating female there also. By your logic, Harvard is obligated to set aside special gym hours only when only males would be allowed inside.

But I don't know... I'm just a simple minded "philistine" (once again..HAHA) of a Tufts grad...why don't you clarify it for me Mr. BU?...or should i say Mr Framingham State?

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are u kidding me? If one was to go to a country that had a moslem majority, would they be so accomodating? If they don't want to work out at the gym with others, they can find themselves another 'female only' gym outside campus. I swear some of the so-called 'practices' are absolutely ridiculous.

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Oh, please, Harvard, spare us the righteous political correctness. Enlightened Westerners rant without compunction about the Islamic world’s backward treatment of women. Yet Harvard expects its male population to be respectful of Islamic women’s medieval notions about men? Would a fair-minded person sense a double standard here? The question scarcely survives its statement.

It is unfathomable why parents of young Harvard men who are paying staggering tuition would allow their sons to be treated as second class citizens. News flash to Harvard: the young men you are banning are the customer.

If a small group of Catholic men sought, in good faith, to ban women from the gym for similar periods of time because their skimpy outfits had become near occasions of sin for them, we all know damn well what Harvard’s response would be. Why is this different? We all know why. The “protected class” is the right sex and the right religion.

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This is ridiculous! This is what too much of the PC baloney leads too.
I visited the UAE a while go and they have quite a large number of foreign workers who are

Christians.And guess when Sunday mass is?? On a Friday!! Yes for them Friday is their Sunday and day of prayer.
So did the UAE and all the muslims there "show basic courtesy" to other religions as some mentioned earlier? Where infact more than 60% of the population are from foreign countires on work permits. Yes they do tolerate other religions but they expect everyone to adhere to their friday as the holy day and the non muslims understand that its not their home country and they do adjust. Its called assimilation!. Otherwise stay back!

I am not much of a relgious person, so i dont love any religion in particular or hate any and every religion/culture has bred their fare share of hate in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

However, the US has gone above and beyond to accomadate everyone on this planet and there is a point when things are taken for granted and people cross the line.

If they feel uncomfortable working out in front of men, then either stay in your own country or they should pool some money togther, buy a treadmill and a bike or whatever,
and workout in the privacy of your home! Or find an existing gym which is womens only!!

You bloody well dont stop the whole train! If you are nudist you don't expect the entire world to turn nudist! You either assimilate or you find your own nudist island and mind your own business there. Well i propose all the nudists at Harvard should demand a time slot to workout in the nude, because they are uncomfortable working out with clothed people. How about a trial to that?? Will Harvard comply?? And no i am not a nudist :)

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There used to be several time slots where the swimming pool in Central Square was "men only" so that the men could swim in the nude.

Does the Y still do this? I think it went out with the last renovation, but I'm not sure.

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Let's not forget the naked men of JP.

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