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State extends late-night weekend T service
By adamg on Fri, 02/06/2015 - 8:26am
At least through June 19.
MassDOT officials say they'll release detailed late-night stats next week. In the meantime, they expect the extra 90 minutes of service on Friday and Saturday nights will cost $16.4 million on revenues of just $2.1 million. But the program has benefits such as increased economic activity from night owls and making Boston more attractive to young professionals.
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Comments
Wasteful
The young professionals they keep trying to court are mostly taking Uber and completely avoiding trains and buses on the weekends. Young professionals love transit to get to work, but overall it's not convenient going out on the weekend.
It sucks because this is a great program for kitchen/bar staff to get home cheaply after work, but with all the problems the T is having I think that $16.4 million would be better off somewhere else.
Uber
I'd like to see a source for this because I really doubt that. $2.65 for the T or $10+ for uber? If I was a college kid on a budget, I wouldn't be wasting my drinking money on uber when there's a cheaper alternative. And if you actually rode the service, you'd see it was is mostly college kids going to/coming from the bars.
And I hate to break it to you, every ride on the T is subsidized. Do you think $2.65 covers the cost of a ride during the day? It doesn't. Hence why the T is in such shambles with its finances. However the subsidized cost per ride during the day is far less than the late night service.. that I will agree on. (I think it's like 8 bucks for late night.. but I know Ari will correct me if I am wrong :) )
College kids aren't young
College kids aren't young professionals, they're college kids and you're absolutely right they're taking the T late at night. However, when city politicians/tech companies/whatever industry du jour the city is trying to impress is talking about young professionals and the importance of late night T service, they don't mean college kids. Let BU/BC/Northeastern run shuttles for their students, leave the MBTA out of it.
And of course the T loses money on every ride, public transit is heavily subsidized.
yeah but
College Kids may become young professionals. Plus not all young professionals are rich and can afford uber too. You're making a broad stroke..
And what about me? I'm neither but I ride the late night service often.. so where does this leave me. No College is going to run a bus for me.
Every other city runs a late night service at a loss, they do it as a public service. Why can't the T too. We want to be 'world class' yet we have a subway that shuts down at 12:30. That's pathetic and sad. This needs to change.
We need SOLID late night service to attract ridership. How can we attract solid "worker" ridership when its always on the chopping block. I certainly wouldn't get a job where I had to work that depends on service that may disappear once funds dry up.
Exactly this.
I have friends who work late and they wish the T ran until 2:30 every day. They love when they get to take the T home Friday and Saturday nights but now that Baker's in charge they're worried about it being taken away.
Colleges and the T
No no no!! Let BU/BC/Northeastern/Harvard/MIT/Emerson/Suffolk/Emmanuel/Wheelock/Berklee/Tufts/Lesley/Simmons/Wentworth/MassArt/Fischer/etc... charge all their students a small charge on their student fees that entitles them to a T pass on their student id's (or a regular Charlie Card given out) that runs through the school year.
The universities (and medical institutions) all benefit from having the T but are not paying into it (Longwood actually runs its own transit service though and some Universities have shuttles). This would be an easy way to help carry the cost of the system without really adding many more riders to it. How many students will be paying into this but not riding the T because they already have cars or just don't ever do it. They pay a myriad of student service fees, for services that many don't use anyways - this would be just one more.
Harvard should chip in a
Harvard should chip in a microscopic fraction of its $30 billion dollar endowment to keep the T running past the pathetically early hour of 12:30 on weekends.
Liberty Mutual, State Street,
Liberty Mutual, State Street, Fidelity, MET Life, as well as some of the other largest companies in Boston should too. Also, MA Restaurant Assoc. I know UHub commenters have some issue with Harvard (one of the biggest job creators in the state) but there are plenty of companies with money who benefit from the T.
No correction needed
But what is rarely mentioned is that the average cost paid for a trip, after accounting for senior/student/etc discounts, monthly passes and the like is something like 66¢ for bus trips and $1.02 for subway trips. 69% of trips are paid for by passes (just 59% of late night trips, so it's definitely attracting discretionary riders), and almost no one pays full fare, something like 4% of trips are paid for by a Charlie Ticket which pays $2.65, as opposed to a card ($2.10) or apss.
Anyway, subsidy per ride overall is something like 93¢ for trains and $2.50 for buses (which generally range from 50¢ to $4, with some outliers). I have the data for that somewhere, but I'm sitting on a plane right now …
Not every T ride, however, is subsidized. The T is working on some data, apparently, that shows that at certain times of day certain routes make money. That 1 bus with 70 people on board? That bus is making money. (It would make more—and cost less—if it didn't have to wait in a traffic jam.) I believe some Silver Line service turns a slight profit overall. But if you broke it out by hour, full trains at rush hour certainly make money, but they subsidize the rest of the service. But you can't just cut all but rush hour service: people take the T because it affords them flexibility (this came up with Commuter Rail when they proposed cutting service after 7 and everyone pointed out: hey, if you cut the late trains, I'm driving in, in case I have to stay late).
What I'd be interested to see is whether there's significantly more subsidy for post-midnight service than pre-midnight service. And as we wrote here, there are significantly more people taking the T earlier in the evening thanks to the availability of late-night T service. That is extra revenue for the T, and more patronage for local businesses (and fewer inebriated folks on the road). I also contend that late night service affords the city the ability to host more concerts and other larger events, which are major economic drivers, by allowing multiple shows per evening, here.
As a young professional
I would rather take the T every time. I live right off of Fields Corner so it's incredibly convenient
The young professionals they
Not even remotely true. Have you been on a Late Night train at 2 am? It's packed with people my age, especially since after a night out dancing/eating/whatever, we don't want to spend an extra $20 getting home when there's a perfectly good train or bus nearby.
speak for yourself.
I wouldn't give Uber a nickel. I don't care much for cabs either.
The T at 1 AM, on the other hand, is awesome. I love it.
None of the Ts service that I
None of the Ts service that I know of break even (maybe the Cape Cod train). Is the revenue only being counted on the rides taken during late night hours, because obviously many people who take it home would not have taken the T out if the T wasn't going to run later. While some would take cabs/Uber, many would just drive, so some of those trips should be added as well.
Also, the Globe (and here) has included the revenue and cost of late night service, but not others. How about the recently added Needham and Greenbush lines weekend service, is that breaking even, how much is that costing? How about all commuter rail line service after 9? How much do those lines cost and how much revenue do they bring in (using the same calculations as above, so apparently monthly passes don't count).
A small increase in the T
A small increase in the T fare (like 5 cents) would easily cover the cost of late night service.
Subsidy vs time of day?
Lots is being made about the revenue shortfall for the late-night service. I'd love to see a chart of subsidy vs. time-of-day. I wonder how late night service compares to other off-peak times, like weekend mornings.
From the Globe article
You can get some idea about how the late-night subsidy compares from this line from the Globe article: "But the T ultimately pays a high subsidy — $7.68, nearly three times the cost of a regular subway ride — per passenger."
It's not broken down by time, but it gives you a ballpark figure.
I know how big the late night
I know how big the late night subsidy is. I want to know how that compares to other off-peak times (Sunday mornings, holidays, etc). For all I know maybe the typical, non-rush-hour subsidy is also $7+.
This may be difficult to find...
It really depends on how you "cost" it all out, everyone will see the situation differently...
The nature of peak hour service is actually quite expensive and inefficient. Think about the additional manpower, equipment, and space required for a pair of 3 hour peaks. Despite reduced demand, offpeak hours and weekends may actually have lower subsidies per pax then peak hours.
To your question: You asked for an apple, I offer an orange. The average subsidy per passenger roughly under $2 per weekday and weekend. With no "peak hour" service, weekend service is likely to be cheaper. This is dependent on who you let run the numbers of course!
Let's simplify the question:
Let's simplify the question: is there data on ridership broken down by hour, or even by day? The MBTA blue book just had "typical weekday boarding" for most lines.
The larger point is that if people are going to be using this data to evaluate the success of the program, they have to provide context or rationale for success criteria. You can't just eyeball the per-ride or overall cost, scoff, and say "too expensive!" By presenting late-night data without the context of other off-peak data, it invites these sorts of sloppy conclusions.
>The nature of peak hour service is actually quite expensive and inefficient. Think about the addition manpower, equipment, and space required for a pair of 3 hour peaks.
I suspect it's mostly dependent on the how full the trains are. Costs probably scale primarily with train frequency, while revenue scales with boardings. Peak trains are more full than off-peak ones, so you get more revenue for the same per-train cost. You also have all sorts of fixes, keeping-the-lights-on costs that you incur regardless of the number of riders. No numbers to back any of this up, just back of the envelope rationale.
Late Night T , SouthCoast
Late Night T , SouthCoast Rail , imploding rolling stock , realistically where is the money coming from? I would be in favor of a surcharge increase , temporarily , to the state tax , dedicated to rolling stock and infrastructure improvements. Thats all, .
NB On the horizon , $240 million ,
''Earlier this month, the agency began soliciting bids for 30 of the self-propelled rail cars, which can run on the existing commuter tracks and mimic regular subway or trolley service. The 30 cars — called “diesel multiple units,” or DMUs — would cost about $240 million, according to Joe Pesaturo, the MBTA’s spokesman''
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/01/11/mbta-asks-for-bids-new-train...
DMU - Not New
The Diesel Multi-Unit , (DMU) is not a new thing. Far too many GenX and Millennials are not familiar with them because they all went out of service before they were born.
The Rail Diesel Car (RDC) was the work horse of the Boston & Maine RR (name before the MBTA bought it out).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car
The DMU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit is simply a modernized version of it.
The problem however is that there are no USA manufacturers of these types of rail cars. The last manufacturer, Colorado Railcar went out of business a few years back and its assets purchased by a rail holdings and management company. Only a few Colorado Railcar units were ever built and are in service. Most were demo units
The DMU is the workhorse of many European rail lines by the way.
See this promo video by Bombardier for the AGC units built for France.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df2/df07092007.wmv
For those that do not understand what a DMU is, this is a primer. It is also somewhat on the high-end of "nice" when it comes to amenities, but each class of DMU can be customized for the service it will perform and the market in which it will operate. Note this video is several years old now.
A DMU is not a subway car and should not be characterized as such as some press outlets are doing. This is again the result of a journalism pool that is unaware of the history of railroading in this region and what an RDC or DMU really is.
The following statement in the Wiki article for the DMU is worth making special note... "In the United States only FRA-compliant DMU systems are permitted on freight rail corridors. This is due to the Federal Railway Administration setting higher coupling strength requirements than European regulators, effectively prohibiting the use of lighter weight European-style inter-city rail DMUs on U.S. main line railways. This has greatly restricted the development of DMUs within the U.S. as no other country requires the much heavier FRA compliant vehicles, and no export market for them exists."
While not evident to most, freight does run on MBTA tracks in some areas and any DMU to be designed will need to meet USA FRA standards, so buying a DMU off the shelf from a foreign manufacturer will not likely happen.
Boston & Maine RR RDC
Fun Fact Add to, NHRR one available on request...
Pike
I wonder if the tolls from Mass Pike drivers between 1 and 5 in the morning cover the costs of emergency services during those hours? If not, why is the Pike even open then to serve so few drivers?
Replace "T" with "highways" and see how ludicrous the discussion becomes. So why should late-night T riders have to justify their existence?
I don't know what late hour
I don't know what late hour Pike specific emergency services you mean. However, time-splitting the Pike seems foolish. Does the Turnpike operate at a loss overall? No it doesn't; but applying your logic Pike drivers during the rush times are probably "subsidizing" people who use the Pike at odd times..... but the Pike users I guess don't mind; that attitude is the issue here. I guess you are saying that rush hour drivers on the Pike should be concerned that they are paying for the Pike 24/7.... but that doesn't concern them.
It would be no big deal for all T users to pay a couple of extra pennies a trip to cover the cost of late night service. That wouldn't resolve the T funding problem... but it would solve this small issue.
Does the Turnpike operate at
Yes it does. Highways are not profitable.
That is a false dichotomy. It
That is a false dichotomy. It doesn't have to operate at profit to not operate at a loss.
The Mass Pike is a toll road
Therefore has income to pay for its operation, AND Big Dig debt service. This is a double fee for most drivers who are already paying gas taxes to use the road. Thoughtfully, in our state laws, people with toll receipts can seek a rebate from the state for the state gas taxes they paid to travel on the pike. They are paying tolls there, so deserve their gas tax back.
Meanwhile, that late night T service costs about $16 per passenger ride (8x fare receipts), and more than most Uber rides. Hence, Uber is the more efficient service for late night.
The turnpike, to lower late night toll taker costs, is implementing all electronic tolling.
Some of the southern states
Some of the southern states take $2 from the federal government for ever $1 they put in. Perhaps we should kick them out of the union?
Lot of commercial activity
Lot of commercial activity those hours , like food?
Are they planning to
Are they planning to implement morning or mid-day service on the T at some point as well?
Do monthly passes get counted as revenue?
I would think many night owl T riders have monthly passes, if these aren't counted as revenue in that time period wouldn't that naturally skew numbers lower? Do the stats reflect a pro-rated monthly pass for that time period for those using monthly passes?
According to the presentation
59% of late-night riders have monthly passes. Not sure how that was counted in the revenue.
I've been using it pretty consistently, so I'm glad they've extended it.
Playing the subsidy game is
Playing the subsidy game is absolute bs.
Transportation acts as a network, not a one time thing. So for the revenue, you cant just count rides taken during the period, you also have to count rides taken during regular service that would not have been taken if the late night rides didnt exist. I also see nothing about calculating additional sales taxes generated, which help fund the T.
Breaking up subsidy during late night vs all day is dumb because it can be so easily manipulated
Example (made up numbers)
The per ride subsidy is actually -$0.25 (a profit!) between 7:30am and 8:00am and an astronomical $3.27 between 1:30pm and 2:00pm. We should eliminate service during that afternoon time period!
Subsidy on a per passenger basis is also misleading because it gives the impression that every additional ridership will cost the system more, rather than the opposite.
Why not show the TOTAL subsidy of the 90 minute period compared to say the TOTAL subsidy between 12:30pm and 2:00pm?
Finally, if late night service on weekends wasnt beneficial, then why do NYC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Philadelphia, DC and presumably many more offer it?
If SEPTA, which still uses tokens and requires you to buy your commuter rail ticket from a window can find money to fund late night weekend service....
Does MBTA really want to do worse than SEPTA?
>Subsidy on a per passenger
>Subsidy on a per passenger basis is also misleading because it gives the impression that every additional ridership will cost the system more, rather than the opposite.
Misleading, but obviously some measure of utilization is needed to decide if it's worth the subsidy. If there were *zero* passengers on the late night T, the subsidy would be $16.4M instead of $14.3M. It's definitely a case where both extensive and intensive numbers are needed.
But the point is that saying
But the point is that saying that each rider "costs" the MBTA $x is misleading, because the average reader is just going to think, adding N riders is going to increase their costs N × $x. The truth is, until and unless additional riders start increasing the energy costs to move the train, or increase the wear-and-tear on the vehicles, or cause them to add additional train cars, each new rider costs nothing overall, and therefore makes the cost-per-rider decrease a minuscule amount. Dividing the total cost by N causes the cost-per-ride to decrease as N increases. This is not immediately obvious nor intuitive to most people, and should be explained in articles quoting a cost-per-rider figure.
This discussion about "young professionals" is a distraction
Actually, I think it's complete crap. On the list of reasons why "young professionals" leave Boston (and I don't believe that there is "too much" of that going on), I believe that the T closing at 1 a.m. is very, very low. I've never hear anyone seriously say that's why s/he left, nor have I heard anyone say that the Tube closing up at 12 or 1 was why s/he left London for New York or some other place where transit runs later (notwithstanding TFL's push to extend the operation of the Tube for, in part, a similar reason).
On the contrary, and only as an example, "my monthly rent for a crappy apartment is astronomically high" is a very common reason people leave both cities (and New York, for that matter).
There are lots of reasons that the T should run later on the weekends and possibly on the weekdays as well. This focus on "young professionals" being able to have a good time as a justification is silly, and should be stricken from the conversation - particularly given the madness endured by hundreds of thousands of people every day for the last 10 days. In spite of the extension, the program is definitely on the chopping block because of the T's myriad problems, and "young professionals who need to have a good time" is not a political constituency that is going to save it. Hundreds of thousands of angry voting and late commuters (and their employers), on the other hand, well, that's a group that the pols might listen to.
The mayoral candidates said
The mayoral candidates said late night T service was the #1 thing Bostonians brought up to them as an issue.
# 1 issue, eh?
Let me accept that arguendo, and ask this:
how many of those Bostonians were young professionals and how many were late or early shift blue collar workers?
I'll give a hint on what I think the answer is: in nearly 20 years living within or very close to the City, and my observations of the demographics of the voter turnout in places like A-B (or even South Boston, where the young professional's favorite, Mr. Linehan, was recently elected), it doesn't seem to me that there are too many "young professionals" (at least as that term is being used in this discussion) who are voting in the mayoral election, let alone showing up at campaign events.
Why does it matter the career
Why does it matter the career of the voters who are told the mayoral candidates late night T service was so important?
Why the class warfare some people on here have against anyone who hasn't lived in Boston since insemination and has a "blue collar" job (many young professions don't make anything near many blue collar workers in Boston, others do, and some make more. But its irrelevant, the point is the people of Boston were asking for it and are using it.
Career doesn' t matter, but you know that.
Career doesn't matter but for the notion that when people use the term "young professionals" (which I put in quotes for this reason), they mean (among many other things this term is code for) people who do not typically work early morning or night shifts. Accordingly, the motivation for this cohort of people wanting later T service is mostly for non-work related trips. The "blue collar" reference was to people who would be riding the T at the later hour to go to or from work.
Lastly, I was suggesting that I do not think that these "young professionals" made up the majority of people asking for late-night T service during the mayoral campaign. In my experience, people who need the T to get to and from work at late hours are not able to go to campaign events to ask for things like that because they are too busy.
Many nurses, doctors,
Many nurses, doctors, restauranteurs, programmers, people in finance, etc. work very late hours. Many blue collar workers work 7 or 8 to 4 or 5. Many blue collar workers go to bars as much as young professionals. You generalize so much about things you don't have many facts about, and why you are so sure you know more about what people said to Mayor Walsh than he does is baffling.
Nice try.
Why you seem to think that the young, of any color collar, had much to say to Walsh or anything else related to politics is similarly baffling. And no, I will not look up the voter turnout numbers as they relate to demographics for you. I will let you find out for yourself that I am right.
Finally, the hypocrisy of your complaining about me using generalizations without supplying facts while using phrases like "many blue collar workers" without supplying facts is astounding.
South Boston
I hope that when late-night service becomes permanent, South Boston will have more options than just Broadway Station. The #9 bus, which conveniently connects the western Green and southern Red Lines as well without going to Park Street, somehow isn't even considered one of the key bus routes that has late-night service (but the line is standing-room only for 15 hours per day.)
Standing room only on the #9
That's because South Boston resident riders of the #9 bus like to put out seat savers on the bus. If you move their space saver to take a seat, you get slashed.
Kidding aside, I also find it strange that the #9 is not a key bus route.
But Southie does seem to hate public transit, so maybe that's why.
That is actually odd that the
That is actually odd that the #9 isn't a Key Bus Route. The Key Bus Route program is supposed to cover the 15 busiest bus routes, and the #9 is the 11th busiest (discounting the Silver Line), according to the 2014 Blue Book (p. 52)
London, like most cities, has
London, like most cities, has all night bus service when their rail is closed.
been there, done that
about 12 years ago we had a similar service called the "Night Owl". Buses ran the same routes as the trains.
It lasted maybe 3 years and was axed due to 'low ridership' and 'high costs'.
Whether we like to admit it
Whether we like to admit it or not, buses have a certain stigma.
That, coupled with the fact that fewer people will use the service if it differs from the regular service, and the inherently lower user-friendliness of a bus service (have to find where the stop is, have to wait out in the cold for it, have to pay attention for your stop, etc.), are why Boston's Night Owl experiment was unsuccessful. Not to mention the fact that the T didn't really want to run it, and they had to pay drivers much higher than during the day to get any of them to work all night.
London's night bus service is more successful because the buses there don't have quite the same stigma they do here (they're also a lot nicer!), and more in London is open late at night than in Boston, so there is obviously higher ridership.
oh i know
it also didnt help that it was cash only.. no passes accepted.
MBTA Operating Costs Via NTD...
Gross costs for MBTA service, by mode:
Bus -- $2.72/revenue minute of service [$3.32/pax]
Subway -- $3.65/revenue minute of service [$1.87/pax]
Streetcar -- $4.09/revenue minute of service [$2.17/pax]
Commuter Rail -- $7.89/revenue minute of service [$9.97/pax]
Trackless Trolley -- $3.57/revenue minute of service [$4.63/pax]
The RIDE -- $1.23/revenue minute of service [$49.60/pax]
Ferry -- $8.89/min [$8.60/pax]
(NOTE: I'm in the midst of doing the math to calculate net costs as you read this.)
Here are some U.S. cities
Here are some U.S. cities whose transit systems run later than Boston's late-night weekend experiment:
Phoenix
Houston
Baltimore
Seattle
Miami
Philadelphia
DC
Cleveland
(I won't mention NYC, Chicago, LA, and San Francisco, since those are too obvious.)