Half the members of Tufts sorority quit when national won't let them add transgender member

Tufts Daily reports on the action by members of the Tufts chapter of Alpha Omicron Pi after the national told them they couldn't accept a transgender person.



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    Don't let

    tv and movies, or even what your hear in the media (the whole "people always talk about the bad news" idea), lead you to much of an opinion. Greek life varies greatly by organization, school, and chapter.

    National is right.

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    A transgender woman is not a woman.

    They haven’t traveled through the world as women and been shaped by all that this entails. They haven’t suffered through business meetings with men talking to their breasts or woken up after sex terrified they’d forgotten to take their birth control pills the day before. They haven’t had to cope with the onset of their periods in the middle of a crowded subway, the humiliation of discovering that their male work partners’ checks were far larger than theirs, or the fear of being too weak to ward off rapists.

    You failed science

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    Plenty of XY women out there have and haven't done those things.

    They are still women ... because they say they are women.

    Here's some news for you: the Opinion section is not fact or reality.

    Sure, they just have to worry

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    Sure, they just have to worry about things like being fired, or walking down the street and being beaten or murdered (unlike straight biological women who are the least likely to be victims of violent crime of all demographics, trans women are far *more* likely to be victims of violent crime.)

    about that...

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    I'm a woman by birth and by identification, and I don't think I'd done any of these things by the time I was 19. (Frankly, I still haven't done many of them.)

    They may not have suffered through the items on this list, but I am certain they have suffered through many many others.

    A transgender woman is a woman because she says she is.

    Well by that logic

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    A transgender woman is a woman because she says she is.

    I'm witty and urbane because I say I am, Kevin Baugh is a head of state because he says he is, and my stapler is sentient because (for all I know) it thinks it is.

    If you want to make an case for letting people be what they want to be and act how they want to act, you might not want to use such a ridiculous talking point as the pinnacle of your argument.

    roman im curious

    which other groups of people you use your privilege to oppress and denigrate, or is it just trans people you don't respect

    I'm equal opportunity

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    Regardless of who or what you are, if you say something dumb like "I'm a magic pony because I say I am", you're going to bear the 'oppression' (oh please) of hearing me call bullshit.

    Calling Bullshit

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    Uninformed by science, facts or reality, as usual.

    If you can find me a science

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    that describes how people *feel* about themselves that's an actual science with boring and mundane things like falsifiable hypotheses, empirical evidence, mathematical formalism, and predictive power, and not a bunch of squishy wishy-washy participation trophy nonsense, I'll shut up and listen.

    Until then...no safe space for you!

    No, you won't

    Plenty of science has been published. You either wouldn't understand it or wouldn't be willing to accept it.

    A quick trip through your posts shows that you have a woeful inability to do the most basic research or link to anything that supports your random hypotheses.

    Here - check this out. Plenty there if you feel like doing a proper meta analysis or research synthesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed It ain't our job to school you, and you'd just claim that everyone is cherrypicking no matter how much reality got thrown at you.

    And here's why I won't

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    Typing in 'gender fluidity' (in quotes) to the search box yields three results (without quotes yields more, but interspersed with real science):

    Trans-Specific Healthcare: Challenges in the Context of New Policies for Transgender People.
    Tagliamento G, Paiva V.
    J Homosex. 2016 Aug 18. [Epub ahead of print]
    PMID: 27537428

    "It Has No Color, It Has No Gender, It's Gender Bending": Gender and Sexuality Fluidity and Subversiveness in Drag Performance.
    Egner J, Maloney P.
    J Homosex. 2016 Jul;63(7):875-903. doi: 10.1080/00918369.2015.1116345.
    PMID: 26549494

    Queer Youth in Family Therapy.
    Harvey RG, Stone Fish L.
    Fam Process. 2015 Sep;54(3):396-417. doi: 10.1111/famp.12170. Review.
    PMID: 26283240

    The abstract of the first one reveals its methodology is interviewing subjects about how oppressed they feel and how the "language of technical discourse" is hampering access to good medical care. In Brazil.

    The title of the second one means it's not worth clicking on.

    The third abstract is about case studies in therapy techniques that "nurture queerness" and is predicated on the "noteworthy change" in attitudes about same-sex relationships in popular culture.

    Explain to me in whatever four-letter words you like, Dr. MIT, how that even remotely fits the definition of science. I'm feeling magnanimous this evening, so I'll also allow for a couple of invocations of your military service, an open prayer to the Two Wheeled God to strike me down the next time I get off a city bus, and even a threat to deport me and the rest of my kind once Hillary gets elected and builds the wall.

    Way to support the point being made

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    The point of research is not to pick out titles of articles that you find odd or amusing.

    The point is to evaluate ALL the peer review literature through critical evaluation and synthesis.

    You really very clearly don't know how to do research at all, as you so clearly and empirically demonstrated.

    Classic misunderstanding of science

    I rest my case about your research skills.

    Your analysis has the following flaws:
    No working hypothesis or research question*
    Confusion surrounding what science is (method) versus what it is applied to (subject matter)
    No description of search strategy and methods
    No inclusion criteria
    No methodological quality criteria ("has a funny title" doesn't count, dear)
    No meta analytical or synthetic methodology or praxis
    ... among other flaws here.

    If you were one of my students, I would recommend multiple Coursera offerings to improve your understanding of the absolute basics of both science, scientific method, and evidence synthesis.

    * beyond "drag queens turn me on and freak me out so it OMG proves not science!"

    Some basic rules

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    A person introduces themselves as male or as female. The exact specifics of their gender is only your business IF:

    1. you are their doctor
    2. you are their lover
    3. they have chosen to inform you

    Otherwise, they are the gender that they have introduced themselves. What parts they have, etc. are NONE of your business. Their gender according to you is completely meaningless, because what you think or believe does not matter because it is none of your business.

    Got that?


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    Case 1: An ambiguous or slightly masculine-looking person introduces herself as a woman.

    Case 2: A dude in a suit and tie with a beard introduces himself as a woman.

    Case 3: Some person of unspecified gender introduces themselves to you as the wallet inspector.

    Case 4: I'm deliberately trolling you right now, but I demand that for the remainder of this thread you assume I'm a woman in every post that's a Fibonacci number removed from this one. At the conclusion of this thread, and in all the other ones, I'm a man.

    Case 0

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    It isn't your job or your privilege to decide. Ever.

    Mind your own business.

    You mind yours

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    and kindly refrain from telling me what I am and am not allowed to think.

    Think what you want

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    Inside your own head.

    Keep that filth to yourself. Some other person's gender is none of your business.

    What else isn't my business?

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    I'm going to have to start keeping a notebook of things that free people in a free society ought to be able to think, say, and do, but for some reason "can't" because somewhere, someone on the internet will be offended.

    You don't need a notebook, jerk

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    I'm going to have to start keeping a notebook of things that free people in a free society ought to be able to think, say, and do, but for some reason "can't" because somewhere, someone on the internet will be offended.

    You don't need a notebook, jerk: one small-sized sticky note will do. Now pay attention:

    1. You are allowed to think whatever you want.
    2. You are allowed to say whatever you want in any forum that grants you that license. You may say whatever you want about someone's gender in your living room; you may not in my living room. You are also allowed to "say" what you want on the internet, in a forum that allows you that privilege; however, you may not do so free of consequences. That is to say, you use your freedom to express your contrary-to-facts opinions about gender, and I use my freedom to say that you're an ignorant jerk.
    3. You are allowed to do what you want with your own person and your own property. Beyond that is off limits.



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    You win the day's award for most extreme Straw Man argument. Like people that said we couldn't have gay marriage because people would be marrying their turtles or cars next. (Was that also you?)

    Do you also think that gay people aren't real? Or do you take them at their word when they tell you they are gay? If you take their word for it, I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to do the same for transgendered people telling you they identify as another gender.

    Not that I think it will change your clearly very closed mind, but there is plenty of research saying that there is a genetic component to people's gender identity.

    Here's one, for example: http://ts-si.org/files/doi101016jbiopsych200808033.pdf

    I can't wait until many, many years from now when your viewpoint dies out. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I have to hope that our current hateful, fearful, anti-facts political and social environment will not last.

    Everyone needs to try to accept one another and work together for a better tomorrow, dang it all! :)

    Of course, of course

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    If I don't automatically accept a person's say-so on their gender identity, no questions asked, I must be some sort of unspeakable evil. The only good and moral thing to do is to be completely credulous at all times no matter how counterfactual or contradictory people's pronouncements may be.

    Listen. I don't care if you're gay. I don't care if you're straight. And after much soul-searching, I don't really care what restroom you use. But I draw the line at being told that I have to believe whatever you say just because you say it.

    False Equivalence

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    Arguing with you won't do any good (especially on the internet), so I'm not going to. But I would love to sit down and honestly discuss viewpoints with someone that shares your views.

    For the life of me, I can't imagine why someone wouldn't accept that identifying as the other gender makes a person happier- for whatever reason. And that they should be allowed to do so, since it is reasonable and does not interfere with the health or happiness as others. They still identify as PEOPLE, not unicorns or pickles or whatever, and should be treated like any person has the right to be.


    A transgender woman is a woman because she says she is.

    I'm witty and urbane because I say I am, Kevin Baugh is a head of state because he says he is, and my stapler is sentient because (for all I know) it thinks it is.

    If you want to make an case for letting people be what they want to be and act how they want to act, you might not want to use such a ridiculous talking point as the pinnacle of your argument.

    Let me help with that.

    No helping with that

    Roman is the Paul Ryan of UHub - he's used to being "the smart one" in the room, but only because he never enters rooms full of smart people.

    That's where it all falls down. Easy to be 'the smart one" when the people you surround yourself with are convinced by rhetoric and never demand actual evidence.

    Easy as pie

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    Especially when that room full of dummies doesn't have the unfortunate habit of stomping its feet and throwing a tantrum when you point out that their 'science' is an echo chamber of self-affirmation and subjective opinion.

    I'm still waiting for your explan--no, explanation isn't the right word--condescending screed on why an article about gender-bending drag performers should be counted as a scientific paper. Is it because it appears in PubMed results? Is it because I should accept it as science because it says it's science?

    Get your house of cards straight, Swirly. Tolerance and acceptance of your fellow human beings should be predicated on sound moral and ethical arguments. It shouldn't be predicated on bullshit.

    Not worth bothering with

    Anyone who can't tell the difference between subject matter of a study and scientific method isn't capable of understanding any explanation about science whatsoever.

    Go back to middle school and start over.

    With all due respect, the

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    With all due respect, the notion that the measure of a woman depends upon the depth of her suffering says more about the individual who believes this, rather than accurately defining an entire gender identity.

    Well obviously

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    As a white middle class American, I'm less of a woman than a woman living under Taliban rule.

    I can't be the only one who

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    I can't be the only one who sees the paradox of someone who doesn't adhere to ideas of gender wanting to join a campus Greek organization?

    I forgot his board is

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    I forgot his board is adherent to groupthink on a number of issues as the stereotypical fraternity/ sorority I was trying to make a comment about

    lol uhub meeting

    yeah sure sign me up for the next one, and i'll show him just exactly how much groupthink there isnt.

    Good for them!

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    Not all Greek houses fit the stereotypes, and living in a fraternity or sorority can be a wonderful experience and teach a lot about responsibility, since members do the work for house upkeep, meal planning and serving, finances and setting room/board costs, etc.

    Sometimes, part of the experience is making decisions knowing that National may not be happy with them - in the past, integrating the house or going co-ed, these days admitting transgender students. Reading the article, it sounds like both those who stayed and those who left are committed to the goal of including transgender women, just divided on whether to accomplish that by breaking with the national group or working from within. Kudos to them all for acting on their principles and working towards inclusion.

    I personally don't believe in

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    I personally don't believe in this whole gender as a social construct thing, to me a transgender will never be anything but their biological gender. That being said, I also believe in letting people do whatever the fuck they want if they aren't bothering me. It costs me nothing to call a trans person by their desired pronoun and treat them as their desired gender even though I think they are ridiculous. It costs me nothing if a trans man uses the bathroom next to me, as long as his prosthetic penis doesn't spring a leak and he pisses on my shoe.

    So with that in mind, it is these girl's sorority. If they decided they wanted to offer a bid to a trans person, then that is their choice to make and their national organization should have supported them. I do think they are being a little dramatic with the mass quitting to score points in the current SJW climate of colleges, because ultimately they ended up giving the bid to the trans girl anyways. But, that is their choice to make as well.

    Gender A Social Construct

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    I am a gay male, and I too think that the whole gender-as-social-construct thing has gone too far. People "identify" as something and then expect everyone to kowtow to it at the risk of appearing uncool, intolerant and politically incorrect, regardless of whether one is factually what they "identify" as. In my time I have known many transgender people. Some of whom I am happy to call friends. I personally am fine with whatever one wants to "identify" as, and I treat everybody with the respect they deserve. The inherent problem is that the very fact that one "identifies" as something implies a choice. One could just as easily turn around tomorrow and "identify" as something else. And I have known any number of people over the years who have done just that as well.

    "Gone too far"

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    I am a gay male, and I too think that the whole gender-as-social-construct thing has gone too far.

    "Gone too far"? FFS, you make it sound like it's a Humvee being driven all over your personal lawn and crushing your garden gnomes. Before we rouse the troops and stop it going wherever it's gone, perhaps you could tell us exactly where that is and how it's caused you any harm.

    If you can be prosecuted

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    for a hate crime or subjected to institutional sanctions (for example at a university) on the grounds that you don't agree with what someone's told you and dared to say so out loud, I'd say that has potential to cause real harm to real people.

    Gone are the days when 'sticks and stones...' was the standard response to even intentional name-calling and bullying. Now there's places where 'I disagree' is just as bad as a cross burning. You lefties have nothing to be proud of with that and if you were being honest with yourselves you'd admit it.

    Please explain

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    What is the "biological gender".

    Or, rather, which of many of them are you speaking of? I'm talking phenotype here, not even social construct. Nature has a bunch of them.

    I identify

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    as a unique and special snowflake and extend the same courtesy to all the other equally unique and equally special snowflakes. Except anons. They all look alike.

    Sexuality and gender

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    Another confusing issue is sexuality, which is different than gender. I know a trangender woman who had previously been a gay man attracted to other males. As a woman she is still attracted to males. I asked her "do you now consider yourself a heterosexual woman?". Her reply was that she still considers herself queer as it is a big part of her identity and being. So here we have a woman attracted to men who considers herself queer. Things do get confusing.

    "Reeves added that on Sept.

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    "Reeves added that on Sept. 16, the representative asked the national organization if AOII Delta could extend a bid to a transgender woman."

    This is an example of a question better left unasked.

    Yup precisely

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    It would have been easier to just do it, and then if someone at National found out and wanted to do something about it, they'd have to take the heat in the court of public opinion for it.

    That said, I can imagine the current members asked first because they wanted to avoid a scenario where National revoked the transwoman's membership and humilated her publicly. From what I understand, because the Greek scene is really popular at Southern colleges, a lot of national chapter employees are very conservative and traditional, and it's likely the Tufts chapter members were trying to avoid putting the new member in a situation where she'd feel unwelcome.

    Racial integration was the same way

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    From what I've read, a bunch of fraternities just went ahead and admitted African-American pledges and got booted from their respective nationals. But what you say about wanting to avoid bringing unwelcome attention on an individual makes sense.

    Ugh, reading the comments on

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    Ugh, reading the comments on this thread was like getting lost on the internet and accidentally clicking on a Trump-supporting article. Lots of stupid and ignorant comments (and it seems like they're coming from the usual suspects)

    Being offline

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    oh I know. I've been offline from UHub a few days so I'm catching up on threads.

    On this thread I'm more disgusted at the LIKES under some of these comments. Sigh. Alot of ignorant people out there apparently..