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The bus driver who'd had enough

Mat Marquis tweeted from the 77 bus this morning:

Driver just put the bus in park in the middle of Mass Ave., between stops. "People aren't moving back enough, so I'm not moving."

"You're already twenty minutes late," a woman protests. "Buy a car," he replies. She exits; he stands, punches the ceiling, then drives.

This was it, for me. This was the one - the commute wherein I swear off that bus forever. Henceforth, I walk to the train station.

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Comments

I understand the driver's frustration. There are so many buses and subway cars where there are open pockets no one is willing to fill. At least the driver was willing to try something other than a useless verbal reminder to move to the back.

But sense and consideration seem to be in the minority where public transportation is concerned. It is impossible to use mass transit without having to deal with the swarming noise of several MP3 players bleeding into the air (except of course for Quiet Cars (whatever happened to inside voice - outside voice?)). Now subway riders are blaring their MP3 players without even using bleeding earbuds.

Add the need for folks to take up twice their space by literally butting up against other riders. Pushing people out of the way or standing in the way of folks moving off the train seems to be the norm now.

To paraphrase the saleperson's complaint, Riding the T would be fine if there were no passengers.

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If it's the driver that looks like Jason Bay, I've seen his attitude before. He actually threatened a passenger on a bus I was on last summer to a fight because the guy asked for the AC to be turned on (in 90+ degree heat and a packed bus). This after he walked away from the bus at the station because people weren't packing in tight enough, in his opinion.

It was the most over-the-top and unwarranted behavior I had ever seen from a driver in my life. My complaint to MBTA was never acknowledged, but I haven't see him drive the 89 or 101 since then. Maybe he just got transferred?

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Whooda thunk it?

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what do you expect from dumb sheeple? cant even get boarding a bus right let alone devising a better commuting method. Hence why I bike, Boston is effing tiny people, stop being a lazy westerner, its the 21st century, get with the times. All this smug entitlement from the bus riders, yet they are the biggest hindrances at times. Just wait till gas gets more expensive, then even more @$$holes are gonna be on the bus.

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Yeah, 'coz nothing says "smug self-entitlement" more than riding the bus. :rolleyes:

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"My way is the only way, so if you don't get in line with it, you're unequivocally and objectively doing it wrong." Fascist asshole. Yeah, those 60-70 year olds with bad backs and ailing joints should just ride a bike, the pussies. You do acknowledge that there are commuters like that, yes? Grow the F up.

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If your way is better in every sense of the word than the accepted norm, why not stand up for it? And yes, if we had a better transportation infrastructure, and cyclists were given as much consideration as other commuters, 60-70 year olds with bad backs and ailing joints COULD just ride a bike. There are any number of great cycling options for people with different needs. Sounds to me like you're the one who needs a little maturation time.

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Dont even get me started on the obesity problem here in the western world, get everyones fat ass on a bike, presto! problem solved, health care costs alleviated, and it'll make the population that much easier on the eyes, you gotta be a moron to be against that. DONT BE A SOFT WESTERNER for goodness sake.

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If you really think people are obese around here, you clearly haven't been to the midwest or south lately.

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Clearly haven't been to SFO or PDX lately, have you?

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Your way is not a better way. Bicyclist are, frankly, the worst commuters in the whole damn world. I hate your kind for the suicidal/homicidal maniacs you mostly are.

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Please, do not feed the troll.

Thank you.

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I'll let loose the Border Collies to round up the jaywalking pedestrians and push them back on the curb until its their turn.

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So in other words, you're disavowing the possibility that some people are physically unable to cycle to work? I also like how "your way" is completely dependent on fairly radical changes that aren't likely to be implemented fully or soon. Yeah, "if we had a completely different infrastructure approach and also changed the mindset of a huge chunk of the population". This is comedic gold, man, righteous stuff.

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It isn't like those oldsters with bad backs could even get to a bus stop last winter, let alone climb over the packed up wheelchair ramps and up onto the snow piles to get on and off of the buses!

If those people and their tax dollars were any concern around here - other than as handy talking points when cycling is raised as an alternative - we'd have drivers who knew how to use chains and snow tires and clear sidewalks, ramps, and bus stops.

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"If those people and their tax dollars were any concern around here..."

Oh, you got it. "Oldsters" really aren't a priority for politicians, even though senior citizens vote more consistently than any other age cohort.

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Real transit solutions are multi-modal. We can't expect the bike to work for all people in all situations. I cycle, I take buses, I ride trains, I drive, and I walk. Circumstances call for different modes, I'm glad we have them all. This isn't a conversation about whether we have enough bike infrastructure (we don't), so just try to focus on the question of whether bus riders should consider efficient space utilization, and how the operator might best enable the best passenger choices.

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Right; I'd like to see people who have to commute, say, 20 miles every day be forced to have to bike there. There's a time issue in many instances that for some reason isn't being appreciated. But I suppose we could just make totally unreasonable expectations of people's lifestyles as well as change the entire nation's business and employment models with a snap of our fingers (disclaimer: this in no way excuses or even addresses issues such as corporate greed and excess, so let me just stop you right there).

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Hey, this guy's a pretty good troll. Manages to rail against smug entitlement while using the word "sheeple" and bragging about how awesome he is for biking. Someone ought to give him a talk radio spot, if only he weren't anonymous.

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I loathe people who don't move back into the train. This guy seems to have tried to get people to actually move all the way into the bus and make room.

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Too bad more drivers are not so concerned. It really is a shame when people are left standing on the curb because a few selfish (often young, but not always) riders can't be bothered to move to the back of the bus.

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this is why I've become a people-shover. If there's space in the back, and you're not using, I will. And I will "Excuse me" my way past all y'all clustered around the door and move as politely as possible, but honey, if you went to the uncrowded areas to begin with you wouldn't get jostled as much now would you?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGH

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I do exactly the same thing. People get one polite "Excuse me", then the shoving beings. Give me all the dirty looks you want, I'm comin' through!

I bet that like me, you fairly often find people drafting behind you into the open space away from the door? Turns out people-shoving is actually a public service.

I had to take it a step up the other day and ask a guy to take his ginormous backpack off because I was literally folded backwards behind him. I got a snooty "where should I put it?" but son-of-a-gun, didn't he find space to hold it down by his side? I thanked him (without pointing out that I shouldn't have had to ask in the first place).

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I notice that in cities like Chicago and New York, a little shoving is just part of the public transit routine. It's not out of malice, it's just keeping everyone honest. Here it's almost unheard of, which is why Boston's a pushover for anyone who can lower a shoulder every so often.

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Herding around the front of the bus or subway is akin to the commuter rail folks who take two seats, one for themselves and the other for their briefcase/computer bag/garment while other passengers stand in the aisle.

Kudos to people shovers on public transit. I also will give one polite "excuse me" as I'm moving towards the open space.

However, I'm intrigued by swirlygirls idea of using border collies.

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Please don't feed the swrrly troll... this isn't about hating pedestrians, it's about bus driver rage.

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I'm not sure if the train will be any better for you to be honest. Even today on the Red Line, the conductors were explicitly telling people on the platform at Central to allow the passengers inside to exit the cars or he was not going to move the train.

The trains, unlike the buses, will make no qualms about space. People getting on will make sure you squeeze in, whether you like it not. Oh the bus, you may get the illusion that you don't have to move, but on the train cars, no luck.

Also, good on the bus driver for doing that I'd say. I would be annoyed at first, but it is an issue when you have people who don't want to move out of courtesy towards your fellow passengers. Every one wants to get where they want to go, but one also need to accommodate to make room.

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When instinct does not prevail, as it usually does in large cities, you can 1) make people feel the thoughtless assholes they are with carefully selected words and/or 2) SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE

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otherwise, I think that a big issue is being missed here.

Look, I rode that bus and lots of others for a long time, and I dealt with the Green line the rest of the time. I agree that people are asses and have this misguided notion that they are entitled to a 4-foot suburban comfort zone on the T. It must be very frustrating for the drivers. I get all of that.

HOWEVER, the tweeter did exactly the right thing by getting the hell off that bus. When a person has near total control over the safety of tens of people, many of whom will be standing at 30mph +, "acting out" in this manner indicates, unequivocally, that this person was not at that time fit for duty, and he should be removed therefrom immediately (not necessarily permanently, but certainly immediately).

Perhaps the driver had something happen this morning. Perhaps he has a child who is terminally sick. Perhaps this was the culmination of a bunch of bad things in the guy's life (in which case, I feel for him), but nevertheless, if the facts are as stated, T management must identify and remove this driver from duty immediately and keep him off until a determination is made by someone qualified to make it that there is not a larger underlying problem that is putting the public at increased risk.

I hope the T takes this seriously - more so than it does with maintenance issues. As I have said before, apparently people will have to die before they address some of maintenance issues (e.g., fires in tunnels from faulty electrical connections) - let's hope that it doesn't take this driver deciding that he is going to show his unruly passengers who's boss by driving off one of the bridges over the Charles. If you think about it, the thought process and action required to do that is not very far removed from punching the ceiling.

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How did this endanger anyone?

(Yes -- I thionk you are missing the boat/point on this story)

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There seems to be some kind of importance placed on the fact that the bus was stopped. That is completely irrelevant to the point that I made.

If you found out that the school bus driver who drives your children to school pulled the bus over to the side of the road, stood up, demanded that the children be quiet and then punched the ceiling of the bus in an attempt to further his request (likely accompanied by some kind of threat, but I'll even disregard that for now), would you think that it was acceptable behavior and not report that to the school and/or bus company? Would you feel comfortable putting your children back on that bus without some kind of explanation as to what provoked that kind of behavior and what kind of sanctions were imposed on the driver?

Perhaps you have a higher threshhold for that kind of stuff than I do, but there is no way in hell that I'm putting my safety or that of those for whom I am responsible in the hands of a person exhibiting that kind of behavior. That only leads to bad endings, the accounts of which begin with, "well, now that I think about it, he did one time..."

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...was one of the "roadblocks"?

In any event, I think you are over-reacting. ;~}

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There must be something wrong with me, but very little bothers me about the idea of a school bus driver pulling the bus over until kids stop raising hell in the back, even (gasp!) raising his voice at the kids or making "some kind of threat" (e.g., "If you don't stop punching that girl in the head, I'll report you to the principal tomorrow, Steve"). I think I'd rather have a driver willing to try and establish some degree of order among unruly passengers than a guy who doesn't care what goes on while he drives. Even punching the bus doesn't seem all that crazy to me.
Perhaps the next time people refuse to move in he should just pull over and call the MBTA police.

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Bus drivers make stops all the time, this was just not at an actual bus stop.

I've been on buses before where the driver has stopped the bus until everyone moved into the back. It was not a big deal.

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I wonder if its sameone I had on the silverline . he kept stopping at every stop picking up more. no one was getting off by the way and then he did the same thing. I remember yelling out there are 2 buses behind you. I could discribe him but it may not be the same one Ill just say he was tall and short waisted. wore glasses. and when he sat down he looked much shorter than what he was. does that ring a bell or a buzzer. bombard the e mail address. it works they will move him a round like a bad priest.

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Critical thinking applied to a chronic problem. That's what we need more of in public sector employees. I love the brassier bus and train operators who are willing to use shame and derision rather than meekly asking passengers to behave like human beings.

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People arent going to change. Theyre going to be selfish and not move back.

So instead of screwing us all over, CHANGE THE SYSTEM.

1)
By buses with 3 doors (or 4 for the articulated ones). The MBTA doesnt need to invent the concept, 3 door buses are found all over the world.

2)
Allow people to board (and pay) at any door.

IT'S SO SIMPLE.

Of course, the MBTA also insists that 3 doors are good enough for the green line. Idiots.

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3-door 40-foot (non-articulated) buses might be found all over the world, but they aren't found much in North America, and they aren't offered by any builder that meets the Feds "Buy America" requirement (Gillig, New Flyer, Orion, NABI, or Nova Bus). If the MBTA speced out such a bus, if they got any bids at all, they would come at a very high cost per bus.

At least the T did get articulated buses with three doors, NYC bought ones with only two for years.

What the MBTA should do is get low-floor buses with 2 by 1 seating in the front, to create a wider aisle and more standing space. The older high-floor RTS buses have this layout (about 125 out of the 1000+ MBTA bus fleet are still this older type). When they went to buying low-floor buses in 2003, they got them with 2 by 2 seating and a narrower aisle, in order to keep the total seating capacity about the same as the old high-floor buses. Low-floor buses have less room for seats than high-floor buses of the same legnth because the front wheel-wells in the low-floor section take up space and are too high off of the floor to mount seats.

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Just because they arent common in north america doesnt mean it would be a quick addition. Look at Vegas and their 2-floor buses.

If the MBTA is ready to place a 300 bus order....then any one of those manufacturers would be willing to do what it takes to get a 3rd door in there.

And the MBTA did take a positive step with their last bus order, which has the rear door 1 row back, and longitudinal seating across from it.

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There are about 60,000 transit buses in the U.S., and annual orders are in the 5-7000 range. A 300 bus order from the MBTA wouldn't make any of the builders blink as far as building a unique customized bus, at least not for a hugh increase in price.

The last 40-foot MBTA bus order was from New Flyer, the rear doors are in New Flyer's standard location for their D40LF model. The longitudinal seat is located across from the door because that is where the diesel tank is in a New Flyer bus (that seat is on top of the tank). NABI (the builder of the 2003 and 2004 CNG bus orders) puts the rear door more forward as standard in their design, but offers the door farther back as an option.

North American low-floor buses actually have a high-floor rear with a standard engine/drive-train set up. There would be no way to easily customize any of the present designs from NABI, New Flyer, Gillig, Orion, or Nova Bus with a third-door behind the rear-axle without a major redesign of the bus. Many European builders have off-set engine designs, which can better accomodate a 100% low-floor bus with a third door opening, but they would have to be willing to set up a U.S. final assembly facility to meet the U.S. FTA Buy America requirments for funding, and would be unlikely to do that for just one order from one operator unless they were confident that the investment would result in more orders to justify the added cost to them. Note that Orion is owned by Daimler and Nova Bus by Volvo, the 1st and 2nd largest builders of new buses in Europe. Both firms offer very different designs through their North American subsidiaries vs. what they offer in Europe. Presumably, they believe their North American designs are more appropriate for the North American market.

The double-deck buses in Las Vegas are offered by the British builder Alenander-Dennis in partnership with the U.S. builder El Dorado-National. They meet Buy America because final assembly takes place in the U.S. They made in investment in their plant, hoping to get more U.S. orders.

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Very knowledgeable reply.

I'd wager that the MBTA is far from the only system that has problems with capacity due to only having 2 doors. Im sure other transit agencies would quickly jump at the 3 door model when educated on the benefits.

Agencies getting together to make massive orders is not uncommon. MBTA + MTA + DC saying "give us 2,000 3 door buses" would have the bus builders doing flips to win the bid.

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The T can't afford to replace 32 year old Orange Line cars, and can't afford to replace 42 year old Red Line cars, and the system as a whole is falling apart - don't hold your breath...

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The T buys buses every 2 years. Theres some federal mandate that the average age of the bus fleet can not exceed something like 12 years, so they must keep buying them.

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Buses are considered depreciated after 12 years by the feds, which means once a bus is 12, it can be sold/junked without having to pay back any value to the feds and federal money can be used toward a portion of the costs of buying replacments. But there is no requirement that a bus be retired after 12 yars of srvice. The remaining RTS buses in the MBTA fleet are from 1994/95, so they are already 17/16 years old. They will need to replace those 125 buses in the next 1-3 years, so there will be an opportunity to buy some new buses with 2 by 1 seating if they want.

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If you have been one one of these buses this winter and saw pavement whizzing by under the rotted out door sill.

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The RTS buses are actually made with stainless steel frames and have a reputation for being tanks in the world of transit buses. The plates next to the botton step under the rear door step-well are just conventional steel, added in to accomodate the changed size of retrofitted wheelchair lifts installed on those buses some years back. It's not that hard for a new steel piece to be cut in when the one in place rots out, especially if the basic frame is sound. But yes, I have seen those plates rotted out, and they only seem to be replaced once they are almost totally gone.

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There is a specific mandate that says the average fleet age cannot exceed 12 or 16 years (dont remember which).

So the MBTA can have 20 year old buses as long as they have enough new ones to offset the average age.

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I've been on buses where the driver keeps yelling to move back, when there is literally no room to breathe without inhaling someone else's shirt. The number of times I've had to scream up front that there's nowhere to move...

I mean, I hate it when people don't move back, but I usually solve the problem by asking them to move politely, or if they won't, pushing past them. But few things grind my gears like bus and T drivers who don't take into account that just maaaaaybe the bus/car is already packed.

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I looked at the time stamp on these tweets - it's "after rush hour", and yet the buses are packed. This is pretty standard these days - be it buses, orange line, or red line. These same transit options are not packed at 7am, when frequency is much higher.

When I've come in late due to a dentist appointment, etc., the buses and trains are always really really crowded. Ditto for getting around after 6:30. I know people who would be happy to take the T - except they work later hours due to west coast communications and they work longer than 8 hour days and the system just doesn't allow for this.

The T seems to think people work ONLY eight hours a day, boarding between 6 and 9 and returning home between 4 and 6. The reality is that many people don't work those hours - hence the crowding I've seen at 9:30 or 10:30 am and after 7pm when they really cut back on the number of buses and trains. Crowding makes for cranky drivers and late buses, too.

Rush Hour happens when people need to get to work or school and get home - not when the T thinks they should have to if they want enough space to breathe.

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The T does extensive ridership surveys and service reallocations on a regular basis.

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The T also has a huge deficit and is in no position to add more service even if they would like to.

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I have ridden buses and subways in many different cities. Boston is the worst by a significant margin in terms of passenger behavior.

On almost every subway platform here passengers waiting to get on crowd the doors slowing the passengers getting off and thus slowing their own trip.

The overwhelming majority of times I get on buses where they are crowded near the front, they are far less crowded or even empty near the back. Many times I have heard bus drivers tell passengers to move to the back. Now they even have an announcement button they can push to have the PA system automatically request it. The problem is, here in Boston and nowhere else, people ignore that request or move back minimally. The bus driver can not legally drive the bus if people are forward of the yellow line. That is because it makes it difficult or impossible for the driver to see. In some situations the driver has trouble seeing if people are crowded in the few feet behind the double yellow line.

None of us were on the bus that day. If it were possible for the bus driver to safely pull over to the curb he should have done so. None of us know if that could have been done safely.

I applaud him for stopping the bus until the passengers repositioned themselves so the bus to be safely operated. If that is what it takes to get people to do what people automatically do in other cities, and fail to do, even after instructions, in this city than that is what needs to be done. Hopefully all the passengers on that bus learned to move towards the back when possible.

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This whole thread makes me thankful for the couple of green line drivers who would actually not move the train until someone gave me a seat while I was on crutches last fall.

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