State Police investigating trooper apparently spraying protester in the face with pepper spray
By adamg on Sun, 12/07/2014 - 1:18pm
The Herald reports State Police are investigating a video posted by a man who says he was sprayed by a trooper during Thursday's protest marches.
Kin Moy was among a group of protesters who managed to evade police and briefly get onto a ramp to I-93Thursday night:
I was filming some arrests that were unnecessarily forceful and aggressive, and I tried to catch when an officer threatened to run us over with his motorcycle. Unfortunately, that footage was lost but one of the cops was pissed that I was filming so he threatened to spray me. I blocked the first shot with my phone, but that second shot got me clean. Ouch!
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Kid sounds like a
Whinny b____h! "You don't do that man." Shut up and get out of the road. YOU DONT SHUTDOWN MAJOR HIGHWAYS DINK!
So arrest him...
If he's breaking the law, then arrest him. If he resists arrest or otherwise threatens the safety of the officer or someone else, then maybe the use of force, pepper spray, batons, or even lethal force, might be in order. What is it, you think, that justifies the use of a weapon in this case?
What justifies the use of a weapon such as pepper spray
in this case? Well, trying to block I-93 for one and not moving when an officer tells you not to block, for two.
Yeah, the officer could of arrested him but a quick spray with the pepper did the trick.
The risk of being sprayed is there for any protestor who chooses to block exit and on ramps to major interstates and, perhaps, refuses to listen to the police officer with the spray when he/she tells him/her to move.
General principle, not specifics
What I'm asking is, What is the general principle, or what do you think it should be?
A Weapon is
a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.
If OC Spray is a weapon, than nerf guns should be outlawed!
OC Spray is of course a weapon
Of course OC spray is a weapon. What else would you call it? I'm not allowed to carry it without a FID card.
You are
You can now carry OC spray without an FID in Massachusetts. So do you have another argument?
As an aside, when you try to walk onto a highway like a dope, and the police tell you to leave, then leave.
I have zero pity for this guy getting sprayed in the face, given the crap they were pulling.
Don't block freeways, don't get pepper sprayed. Get off of the freeway when the police tell you to, don't get pepper sprayed.
It's a pretty simple concept, really.
ACAB
ACAB
Entitled punk...
Go out and risk your life everyday like the police do, kid. Then you can complain.
Like Frank Serpico did?
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-...
How is this "punk' more entitled than the cop?
All the cops I know went to good high schools, have college degrees, get to take courses at colleges paid for by me and you and have really, really good benefits. Show me a few cops living in public housing and we can have further discussion on your argument on entitlement.
Most cops do a great job with there being some bad apples, just look at today's Globe. Please remember however there is no conscription into the thin blue line. I haven't heard of any press gangs walking around forcing people into the law enforcement life against their will. Cops are cops because they want to be cops.
A few bad apples
When was it that people all forgot that the entire phrase is "a few bad apples spoil the bunch"?
"entitled"
Your right, John. All the extra benefits for police, like the Quinn bill and generous detail work, have been justified by the perception that policing is a particularly dangerous occupation, But the perception is wrong; nowadays, a garbage man is more likely to be fatally injured on the job than a cop:
http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0012.pdf.
Meanwhile, median Boston police income, before the bells & whistles, tops $76,000, with many cops breaking $100k, $150k, $200k. So, yeah, being a cop is no blue-collar "just scraping by" anymore, if it ever was in the 20th and 21st centuries.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/02/bpd/afTnwd4UZuKd1A5WMCc5lL/s...
http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/12/03/boston-police-deserve-bigg...
http://www.lawenforcementedu.net/massachusetts/massachusetts-salary/
I'm surprised the cops
don't riot and burn down buildings when things don't go their way.
When we show similar outrage
over the totally unjustified multi-million dollar salaries that so-called "professional" athletes make for playing childrens games, then I might start to show concern about law enforcement officers making extra money through overtime and the like.
That's a stretch...
Comparing this whiny kid to someone like Frank Serpico is really grasping at straws.
Good work Trooper.
You want to shut down a highway you'd better expect an unpleasant experience.
How about
Arrest, trial, conviction, and consequences, then?
These are called Due Process - a key feature of our legal system.
Summary judgement and assault or execution aren't special rights of police.
Perhaps in a controlled environment
but the "aggrieved" was engaged in more than civil disobedience. Shutting down a major highway is an act that leads to life threatening danger to drivers, the protester and the law enforcement officers sent to address the incident. He and other protesters seem to have been given ample opportunity to remove themselves from the situation and chose instead to escalate the event to the point the Trooper used pepper spray. People have the right to civil protest but when they endanger public safety then they cross a line that has obvious consequences.
By what theory?
By what theory, doctrine, or rule of engagement do you think it's appropriate for a police officer to use a weapon on someone who is not attacking anyone or violently resisting arrest?
Pepper spray...
...does not normally cause any real damage. Using a baton would be worse.
Was the protester strolling down
Commonwealth ave or a major interstate? Time for a reality check. If its okay for these protesters to create a public safety danger then its okay for they Westboro Baptist Church or KKK to shut down the expressway at rush hour so they can exercise their free speech.
Wrong question
The question is not whether or not it's OK for the protesters to shut down the highway, the question is whether or not the use of force was appropriate in this case.
Ignoring where this took place is
convenient.
Crickets....
I still haven't heard an answer to the question, what are, or what do you think should be, the rules of engagement for the use of pepper spray?
It was a reasonable discharge
based on the circumstance which was a threat to public safety. It did what it was intended to do and it incapacitated the person causing him to have to leave the highway. Those aren't crickets though Monday morning keyboard quarterbacking is easy. What would you have done to remedy the situation. Sit and talk?
I'm not saying the officer was right or that he was wrong.
What I would have done is refrain from either praising or condemning the officer's actions until I knew what the rules were, whether or not the officer followed the rules, and whether or not I thought the rules were reasonable.
Living under the rule of law, as opposed to living in anarchy or a police state, means you don't make shit up as you go, you establish rules and you expect people to follow them.
Block Traffic = Pepper Spray
Could be a fun gamechanger for the Storrow Drive trucking industry!
good way to clear the bus stops and bike lanes in Boston
And people that double park or park in bus stops or bike lanes should be pepper sprayed. They are blocking traffic.
I feel so bad for that kid.
I feel so bad for that kid.
Why? Oh, you're saying you
Why? Oh, you're saying you feel bad for the kid not being mature enough to listen to law enforcements orders. Yea, yea I feel bad too. He will grow out of that hopefully
Why?
I've been pepper sprayed full in the face and then attacked by two assailants at the same time and had to fend them off and get them to comply. I had to do it to be able to carry pepper spray on my belt (work related). I lived. So will he.
He may be scarred for life
by this "unfair" act. Oh the humanity!
So the trooper gave ample
So the trooper gave ample warning, the guy behind the camera didn't obey and he got sprayed. What's the issue here? After the BS some protesters were saying about police targeting transvestites and gay people (...somehow, I don't think it's SOP to randomly ask people who they like to sleep with), I'm not inclined to immediately believe his story. I bet the "threats" to run them over were more likely the troopers saying "watch out and keep moving or you'll get hit."
But hey, at least the protestors didn't cheer on police getting injured like in one city. http://kwgn.com/2014/12/04/denver-police-union-claims-some-protesters-ch...
Multiple warnings ignored
Reminds me a bit of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebt0l8s3aMQ&t=2m10s
Really?
What are the
BPDMSP rules of engagement for the use of pepper spray? is it supposed to be used to subdue people who are posing a threat to an officer or who are actively and violently resisting arrest? Or is it to be used to punish those who fail to show adequate respect?[edit: fixed BPD for MSP per John's correction below]
Wrong Department
These are our jodhpurs clad friends in the State Police, not the BPD.
Pepper spray...
...is not considered the type of weapon that is likely to cause permanent damage. It sucks, for sure. But it can be used to get someone to comply with an order who is resisting (and resisting doesn't necessarily mean aggression). Now, this is not tom the MSP ROE. This is from my Coast Guard training. But I'd venture a guess that local and state police have more liberal policies when it comes to pepper spray.
Shouldn't had been going to
Shouldn't had been going to the highway on foot anyway . Its against the law to be walking on the highway .
with all the B.S. the departments have putup with these days guy should be lucky tthat's all that happened to him
Lots of shit is illegal
Lots of stuff is illegal. It's against the law to park too close to a hydrant, or to jaywalk, or to mail your taxes on April 16 instead of April 15th, or to use Schedule 40 PVC pipe when the building code calls for Schedule 80 pipe.
Now, once again, when do you think it should be OK for law enforcement to use pepper spray or other forms of force against people who are breaking the law?
Message for MSP
Two weeks ago politicians were tough on crime, this week their tough on cops
So, when is it not okay?
I'm SURE 100% of the pro-pepper spray commentators here NEVER break ANY laws. Sure, obstructing traffic is against the law, but so is jaywalking. This is Boston, so I'm going to bet some folks have walked against the light, how about getting met half way across the street with some pepper spraying corrective action? Too benign an offense you say? Last time you loitered while waiting to meet your friends wasn't really a problem, right? How about speeding? Everybody driving the speed limit these days? Nobody taking a couple hundred yards in the breakdown lane to get quick assess to their exit? Speed is a major factor in auto accidents, and sometimes a fatal factor. How about some pepper spray for you when you don't get the registration quickly enough, or you give some attitude? Oh, I see, it's different for you some how....
Standing around, speeding and
Standing around, speeding and jaywalking are not the same as actively obstructing a trooper on the onramp to a highway after being repeatedly warned to move
For the zillionth time.
What are the rules?
What do you think the rules should be?
For the zillionth time
I like how you just don't acknowledge the replies that answer your question.
It's simple: if your actions endanger public safety, or your own safety, and you do not halt those actions, the police are justified in pepper spraying you.
It's really very simple.
Cite, please?
Could you please provide a citation that backs up your claim that those are the MSP's rules for pepper spray?
For example, if you park in front of a hydrant, you are endangering public safety. If the police officer tells you to move, and you shrug and say, "ticket me." and start walking away, is pepper spray justified?
Walking away vs actively
Walking away vs actively obstructing police action after being given a warning of action that will be taken.
Excellent nonsensical arguments
So your stance here is that jaywalking is exactly the same are blocking freeway traffic?
Do you understand the difference between an action that immediately endangers your life and the lives of others, and one that doesn't? Because it really doesn't seem like you do.
What if the MSP just let them hop on the highway? Then one of them gets run over. You cool with that? Or worse yet, they cause a massive pile up with significant loss of life. Is that cool?
They were asked to leave the highways and ramps because they were endangering themselves and the public. When they didn't do that, one gentleman, out of literally hundreds, was pepper sprayed.
Every example you give above is just stupid. It has absolutely no basis in reality, and, frankly, makes you look like a fool.
But just keep on blindly defending those who endanger others in order to "make a point." It's fairly obvious common sense and public safety are not amongst your top concerns.
We can't have this discussion....
We can't have this discussion until the people who claim that the police officer was right (or those that claim he was wrong) actually cite the goddamned rules that he either broke or that permit his action.
Not what you want, but
The Boston Police Department does have on their webpage rules on the use of non-lethal force.
I bring to your attention this one paragraph-
It looks like the MSP does not post their rules, but I would assume that they would be similar, though I am sure both Davis (who published the rule) and Evans would err on the side of less use than the MSP would, judging by how each organization has dealt with the protestors.
Now, we're finally getting somewhere....
From the BPD policy (which doesn't apply to the state trooper, of course, but it's illustrative nevertheless....)
and
Life seldom presents one with black-and-white scenarios; it would seem pretty easy to argue either side of this particular one.
Captain, My Captain...
I'm re-reading my comments, but I can't seem to locate the part where I say jaywalking and protesting (or blocking the street) are the same exact thing. Since you're the obvious type, it seems you're having trouble connecting the dots, so I'll help you:
One day, it's being maced for "blocking the streets" (or, if you're cynical, for protesting police actions) and the next day, it's macing people for whatever reason they feel like it. As for endangering lives, THAT'S why I threw in speeding. It does endanger lives, as I said, it's frequently a factor in traffic fatalities. So, why not let officer hair trigger get bent out of shape when you're speeding? Seems legit to me (a guy who tends to stick to the speed limit, just because). How about driving in the breakdown lane? Another dangerous practice I see dozens of times a week. No, you're sure those aren't offenses that would warrant being maced, because, well, obviously, you don't dislike traffic violators as much as you dislike protesters. And THAT, Mr. Obvious, is my point. Those here, (and everywhere) cheering the cops as they mace and smash their way through protesters just don't like the protesters. If it was some right wing case, like the Tea Party, you'd hear about the "Union Thug Police" tearing the fabric of freedom. But, as long as it's people you don't like because you don't agree with them, well, it's time to stand up and cheer as the pepper spray is deployed.
Asian guy lucky to not be black!
where he could have been shot or choked! He should just consider himself lucky for getting off easy and not arrested or seriously harmed and give up his social media campaign lacking traction.
BTW, I recall a video from the occupy protests where a cop seriously doused seated protesters from a large can of pepper spray. This kid with a little spritz has got nothing to complain about.