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Traffic jam caused by protests kept paramedics from responding to apparent heart attack
By adamg on Thu, 12/04/2014 - 11:06pm
Good thing Boston has more than one paramedic unit: Boston EMS Incidents reports that when a report of a person suffering a heart attack in the Prudential Center food court came in around 10:30 p.m., the Paramedic 1 unit stationed on Purchase Street was dispatched to the scene - but couldn't even get out of its bay due to the large traffic jam caused by protesters in Dewey Square and police blocking traffic to keep motorists from plowing into the protesters.
Dispatchers then routed Paramedic 2, based on Warren Street in Roxbury, to the mall, where firefighters and EMTs were treating the unconscious but still breathing person until the paramedics could arrive.
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Comments
Embarrassing Boston
Protesters with "I can't breathe "signs blocks EMS from caring for heart attack victim. Pathetic.
Ironic, not pathetic.
Ironic, not pathetic.
Irresponsible is more like it, imho!
When protestors act so irresponsibly, they should be made to pay for it in some way or other, either by being arrested, or being made to do community service to pay restitution to the family of a heart attack or stroke victim, for example, who failed to reach the hospital in time due to being so irresponsible. Like, paying for the funeareal and/burial or crematorial fees to the bereaved family or families, for example.
The protestors are more than old enough to realize that, with the exercising of one's First Amendment Rights comes a responsibility, and the protestors did not live up to that responsibility, as far as I'm concerned. I stand by what I've said.
So, you'd hold accountable
So, you'd hold accountable for blocking traffic the people protesting the police who are systematically not held accountable for killing people? Now THAT is irony!
Yes, the protestors ARE to be held accountable.
Suppose the EMT's hadn't been able to get to the heart attack victim in time, and the person had died?
You still think the protestors wouldn't/shouldn't have been held accountable? I disagree with you here, anon. One of these days, somebody will lose their life as a consequence of such actions and behaviors on the part of protestors, and then it'll be too late.
The protestors remind me of those idiots down in Southie who were/are so insistent on double/triple parking on their streets that they caused a young girl to die in a house fire because the fire truck wasn't able to get there in time.
MassDOT, Verizon, and NStar
MassDOT, Verizon, and NStar block more roads on a daily basis than these protests do, and they do it almost 365 days a year. Do you complain about them blocking emergency vehicles? Of course not, because we live in a first world nation with a robust emergency response system that's capable of working around road closures. Even last night when someone had a heart attack at the Pru, one ambulance was blocked, so what happened? Our robust first world system dispatched another ambulance, it arrived on the scene quickly, and no one died. Seriously, this complaint is nonsensical. It's 100% a red herring.
Seriously?
You do understand that the second ambulance came from a father distance than the first, which means that the guy having the heart attack has to wait longer for paramedic assistance? And you do realize that this could mean life and death for that person?
As I said in a previous post, I am in agreement with the protesters but blocking traffic can equal death for someone in distress.
The person was already being helped by EMTs, which was good, but I see no reason why protesters need to block traffic to make a point.
What's stupid is holding
What's stupid is holding protesters to a higher standard than you'd hold someone else. If no one is allowed to block streets because it might be a public health risk, then let's not allow anyone to block the streets. You're with me here, right?
Absolutely
When [whoever the current President is] comes to town, no blocking traffic for their motorcade. Marathon? Let them run with the cars. World Series victory parade? Nope. Funerals? No.
Things like the annual Boston Marathon, as well as parades, etc.
are handled by the city and the police cordoning off certain streets to motor vehicular traffic and re-routing the traffic around that particular cordoned-off route for marathons, festivals, etc. It's not the same thing, at all.
You do realize, I hope ...
That you don't have to respond to every single last comment with the same exact comment about traffic, right?
More to the point,
EMT's and firefighters, unlike paramedics, are not qualified to administer the necessary on-the-spot, more advanced care that a person who's suddenly stricken with a heart attack, a stroke, or other life-threatening injury or illness while on the street or in a public venue needs.
I do also agree that protestors have no business blocking traffic and shutting down subway stations, etc., to make their point, either.
Come on now...the cars don't usually take up the whole street.
Come on now! The NSTAR, MASSDot and Verizon trucks don't generally take up the entire street, and at least people are able to get around them, which generally causes minor tie-ups in traffic that last just afew minutes at the most. They, too often deal with emergencies, and they generally park further to the side of the streets, rather than in the middle of the street.
Come on now...the cars don't usually take up the whole street.
Come on now! The NSTAR, MASSDot and Verizon trucks don't generally take up the entire street, and at least people are able to get around them, which generally causes minor tie-ups in traffic that last just afew minutes at the most. They, too often deal with emergencies, and they generally park further to the side of the streets, rather than in the middle of the street.
No, that is a false
No, that is a false equivalency.
Or appropriate
Some would say this is quite appropriate because they are spreading the costs of injustice against a particular group to society as a whole. Some would say this. Not me. Not here. That discussion is wayyyyy to deep for this forum. An academically intriguing thought though.
So let me get this straight,
So let me get this straight, these disgusting, pathetic nuts were "protesting" the injustice of what happened in NYC and it's a good thing that someone almost died (they didn't die right?) just to drive home and reinforce the very point their protesting against? That is beyond disgusting and I feel sorry for the people who believe that, because your sick.
Seriously...
...shut up. I mean that sincerely. You think you're an intellectual but you're really just a silly, wanna-be radical jack ass. You would not be saying such things if it was you or a loved one who suffered a heart attack and EMTs couldn't get to you/them. So again...shut up. Thanks.
Perhaps you should not write until you read
I think you missed this part of the original post:
EMTs did get to the man, and were treating him. So maybe you should .... what's that pithy phrase? ....
Sorry you wasted your time...
I was responding to someone who implied that EMTs being blocked from responding to a heart attack victim was a good thing. I never said that the EMTs never got to the victim. So go ahead and take your own advice. That is all.
Wrong again, perruptor!
The point is, perruptor, that the patient could've died. When people cause a traffic jam that impedes the ability of EMT;s to get to a heart attack patient right away, that's gambling with an innocent person's life, any which way one looks at it.
I guess we shouldn't drive home
after work. You know, rush hour and all. An ambulance might be trying to get somewhere on an emergency call.
It's PATHETIC that people
It's PATHETIC that people drive home from work. Don't these losers know they could be blocking an EMT?! WHY DON"T THEY GET A JOB!?!
/severeyeroll
So I'm a paramedic and I can
So I'm a paramedic and I can tell you that there is a saying when someone is having a heart attack that goes like this "time is muscle." The longer it takes to get to a cath lab (not a trauma center, which I've seen people on here say), the more cardiac muscle dies, which is generally irreperable damage. Even though an ambulance did get there, it took longer than it would have taken the other ambulance to get there unimpeded, therefore delaying the patients care and increasing the likelihood of more cardiac damage. And even if the man did live, his heart may never function to the same capacity again based on the amount of damage done, which can now lead to other health issues. Just remember that if it's you or a loved one having a medical emergency, especially something as time sensitive as a heart attack or a stroke, and the potential life saving care that you need gets delayed over a group of people deciding to block traffic.
lol you know so much about
lol you know so much about this topic huh? So just because the EMTS and firefighters were there you think he was getting the care he needs? What he really needed was earlier advanced life support intervention that could be the difference between beig brain dead for the rest of his life or not. Fuckin brilliant perruptor. What are the EMTS going. To do for him? Ventilate him with a BVM and hope for the best?
lol
EMTs can keep him alive until he gets to a trauma center - and good news! There are a bunch of those in Boston!
really
Here's my idea...
First none of this would an issue if the guy would have just done what was asked. I know that there are bad people in every profession. I am a medic and God knows there are many that suck to say the least. With that being said, there are plenty of good medics but there are NO GOOD CRIMINALS! Just do what you are asked to do!!!!! If they say freeze, then freeze! Don't move! Instead we try to be a person that wants to be tough and guess what? Police will revert to their training! Is is the right thing! Maybe not but that is not the issue!
As far as the question. what can EMS do? Meds, O2, Transport to a facility because he will die unless he is seen elsewhere. The question that I will ask you is can you do any more than I can? I doubt it and I commend the EMTs and Paramedics, Firefighters and Police officers everyday doing their job. If its your job to steal and take from others or break the law, then maybe you should get a job because we are going to do ours!
Just do what is asked and this wouldn't be an issue....This isn't about race either. There are black officers killing white people as well its not made public by media.
Here's a link...
http://www.youngcons.com/unarmed-white-man-was-killed-by-a-black-cop-loo...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/27/white-teen-gilbert-colla...
Other things that where
Other things that where "Pathetic":
The March on Washington
The Selma to Montgomery March
Blocking innocent children from eating at a Woolworth's lunch counter "unmolested" by protesters
The 1913 Women's Suffrage March
Democracy in general
Oh, come off the crap, anon!
The March on Washington, the Selma to Montgomery March and the Woolworth's lunch counter sit-in were not the same thing. They were a watershed of America's history, and the protestors in those above-mentioned marches weren't blocking access to hospitals, blocking traffic, or causing traffic jams that impeded the ability of EMT's or other medical people to respond to life-or death matters. That being said, one can't compare the above-mentioned marches to the protests that're going on right now.
Sez you!
You often can't tell a watershed event until well after it happens.
And while we can't really compare ambulances then and now, because today's ambulances and EMS crews are far, far more advanced than the stretcher Caddies of yore, you really think a crowd the size of the one on the Mall the day of King's speech would have NO impact on traffic? You have another think coming, IMHO
The medical emergency took
The medical emergency took place in the Pru. Right across the street is a fire station staffed with EMTs & emergency equipment. So why was this such a big problem??
Because paramedics can
Because paramedics can provide more advanced care to increase his chance of survival as opposed to emt basics. That is why. People don't seem to understand that. Just because there were firefighters and EMTS doesn't mean he had the best care possible at the time.
Actually
Actually, that's exactly what that means, because paramedics who might provide better care weren't possible at that time (traffic was too heavy for them to arrive).
You might as well blame his friend who was with him for not being a cardiac surgeon for preventing him from having the best possible care at the time.
Frightening innocent children
Frightening innocent children at a Holiday event and blocking essential traffic. What a great way to get your point across. You are a bunch of bullies. I bet half of them do not even know why they are protesting.
Poor poor children
Bullies, ha. Sorry your kids had to find out the world isn't all sunshine and roses and that this country has a very large problem with police officers abusing their authority and getting away with it.
You should really be blaming the grand jury for announcing their injustice the night before the Christmas tree lighting. How could they not think of the children.
To the person who wrote this
To the person who wrote this comment and the 30 people who gave it a thumbs up.... It is not up to you to teach other people's children life lessons at a Holiday event. Let them see Santa and a tree lighting in PEACE.....isn't that what you are preaching anyway?
Bubbleboy
If you don't want your children exposed to the real world then don't take them out of the house. This is a real life issue, not something that was made up just to interrupt the tree lighting. The tree lighting complainers here are so self absorbed it's sickening.
If I were a parent of children
of an age to whom seeing a tree lighting and Santa was a big part of their year, I would prefer that they learn about real world issues at an appropriate time and age (hopefully one of my choosing) instead having said issues forced upon them by a bunch of self-absorbed protestors who feel the need to intentionally disrupt a public event and block streets and transit service.
Yes Poor Poor Children Zetag
Blame the grand jury? Seriously? Grow up and leave innocent children out of your battle. They came to see Santa and a tree. There is no reason they should be scared in any way at City of Boston Holiday event. If you think otherwise you may need some medical help.
If you think the blame the
If you think the blame the grand jury's timing comment was serious then you should probably just call it a day and get off the internet.
Some of our children
live every day frightened that they could be shot walking home from the store with Skittles.
"little children"
They know why they're protesting, and so do you.
Frightening little children? For decent parents, it's a teaching moment: "Sometimes things go wrong in our country, and when they do, people have the right to get together in public."
Frightening little children? I'll bet little children were sure frightened when they saw a 12-year-old shot to death by a Cleveland cop.
Frightening little children? Have you even seen the video games that are pandered to children? If they learn that life is not a video game, that's not a bad thing.
I hope you feel good that you
I hope you feel good that you made children cry. Tough guy/girl.....
http://www.wcvb.com/news/boston-mayor-walsh-slams-protesters-who-frighte...
Could be worse
These kids could be dead instead of just crying, cops get away with killing children too you know
OR
Or they could be enjoying a night night out with their family.........nah, let's show them the real world by screaming, yelling, pushing ,shoving, laying down in the street blocking traffic instead. Merry Christmas! May God Bless you. You need it.
Interesting you bring God
Interesting you bring God into this. I'd be delighted to know what the birth of Jesus has to do with fireworks, football cheerleaders, and an illuminated tree.
Ummmm where did I say that
Ummmm where did I say that God was related to the things you mentioned? Oh wait, I didn't. I merely ended my comment saying Merry Christmas and God Bless you. Shouldn't you be out yelling in little kids faces ,pushing toddlers around and blocking traffic somewhere?
If your kid was emotionally
If your kid was emotionally scared by the protest then your kid has larger issues than seeing a protest.
Please print out these
Please print out these comments and save them. When you have children of your own one day you will see things different. Bring your rain jacket tonight.
If your kid was emotionally
If your kid was emotionally scared by the protest then your kid has larger issues than seeing a protest.
Why? Explain.
I didn't say emotionally scarred. I said kids were afraid.
In that case let me scream in
In that case let me scream in your kids face for an hour. Of course little kids get scared. Some are too little to understand what is going on.
Wow
That's not just a straw man; that's a straw giant! Those protesters should definitely stop screaming in the faces of little children! And stop beating their wives while they're at it!
No ambulances available at nearby hospitals?
I'm surprised one could not be dispatched from Boston Medical Center or Tufts Medical Center (both quite nearby) or from Brigham & Women's or Beth Israel (a bit further away down Huntington Ave)
Ambulances are NOT posted at Hospitals
Ambulances work out of a 'satellite' station. They are not owned or work out of Hospitals, with the exception of maybe of the Beth Israel where the City rents a garage for 2 of it's ambulances.
Each Ambulance has a 'response' area. When a call comes in for their 'response' area they are dispatch to that call. If there is a closer unit, that ambulance is sent. If that ambulance is having egress issues like last night on Purchase street the next closest is sent.
This scenario last night delayed an Ambulance response to an unconscious person. Period. How ironic.
Boston EMS runs a 2 tiered system. EMT truck and PARAMEDIC truck. One set has advanced training for more serious calls.
People call ambulances for everything from a toothache to a cardiac arrest, a fever to a shooting. Some calls require advanced medical care which includes,
but is not limited to, an IV line and drugs. EMT's don't perform those treatments. If a unit is busy in their response area, the next closest unit is sent.
The City has 3 first responder departments:
Boston Police-911
Boston Emergency Medical Services-911
Boston Fire-911
I'd also like to make note that they are not:
AMBULANCE 'DRIVERS'.
Some one finally got it!,
Exactly! This exactly what everyone is failing to see. The EMTs that were treating the patient did the best they could with the skills and the equipment they have. If the medics were delayed for whatever reason, that is time the patient is not receiving the care he REQUIRES. Just because he is receiving some care, doesn't mean he is getting what he actually NEEDS. This patient needed advanced life support and was delayed in receiving that care..... Period. That's is not ok.
I have worked in all kinds or ERs. Small community hospitals and large urban trauma centers and the one thing they all have in common is the medics and EMTs. Those very skilled and very talented people show up to a scene and get the patients to us alive so we can try to fix them. They do their jobs in 100 degree heat, in blizzards and tornados. They are threatened and often assaulted and are mistakenly referred to as ambulance drivers... THEY ARE NOT.
I would like to know how any one of these people who are commenting would feel if it were them lying in the ground, and it was their care was compromised?
The hospitals do not have
The hospitals do not have ambulances. Boston EMS is the city's ambulance company while other companies like Action, Lyons, American, etc are individual companies. They are at hospitals only to transport and give reports on incoming patients.
Seeing as how none of those
Seeing as how none of those hospitals house any ambulances, that wouldn't be possible.
Dispatch from Purchase St.
Dispatch from Purchase St. when roads were messed up there? Emergency management SNAFUP! BMC, BCH, Med area?
Really
Ambulance dispatchers are in touch with the PD, aren't they? Why didn't they know that their ambulance at the Pru was going to have this problem if a call came, and move it out of the affected area?
No! The protestors should be made to move out of the way!
Wrong, perruptor! The protestors should've either been given the choice of moving the hell out of the way or being subject to arrest. If the protestors still refuse to move out of the way of the ambulance responding to and trying to get through to the heart attack victim, the protestors should be arrested...every one of them.
Here's another thing: the protestors are doing far more harm than good to their cause, and they should know it!
It wasn't the protesters blocking the paramedics
Let's keep this straight: There was no blockade of the paramedic station last night. Protesters were a couple blocks away, in Dewey Square.
Police blocked roads in the area partly to prevent those protesters from having something to blockade (really), but mainly to keep them getting turned into road pizza by crazed motorists, as happened in St. Louis and New York.
Yes, the net effect is the same: The ambulance was trapped in its bay. But let's not impute a horrible motive to people who didn't have it (and as with the BMC "code black" the other night, let's also remember that Boston is blessed with a redundant health-care system and a paramedic team did get to the Pru, just not the one originally assigned there).
A larger point
Adam highlights that our little outpost on the North Atlantic is blessed with many things, and truly it is.
I see a larger point in all of this though. There are reasons why we don't have many of the problems that many other cities in our country have, or, do not have them to anywhere near the degree that other cities have them. And in my opinion, those reasons have a lot to do with how we collectively view what it means to be a civilized society in general, and the role of government in a civilized society in particular. Of course it wasn't always this way, but our shared experiences with some alternatives have informed what I think is a fairly broad-based consensus nowadays (notwithstanding what the msm outlets intent on polarization try to tell us). I am not suggesting that there aren't lots of people far out on either flank, but I really do believe that there is considerable consensus on fundamental issues across a broad swath of the Commonwealth's citizenry.
BMC "code black" ?
I don't know what this refers to.
Code black = shutdown
Usually refers to some problem that limits the hospital's ability to accept new patients, in this case, lots of protesters.
Okay, but the protestors DID cause a traffic jam that
impeded the EMTs' ability to get to the heart attack victim immediately, and that's quite harmful in it's own way. Even if the victim of such a life-or-death matter doesn't lose his/her life as a result of such stupidity on the part of the protestors, time is still of the essence in the event of a heart attack or a stroke, and any delay, no matter what the cause can be and is dangerous, because it could cause the loss of a life, OR, the victim could suffer permanent damage from which s/he would never recover. That, imho, is sufficient enough for people to have the sense not to cause such a traffic jam, no matter what their cause may be.
Difference between EMTs and paramedics
EMTs (and firefighters, who are trained in basic first-responder care) DID get to the person right away. At issue is whether the paramedics, who can insert IVs and breathing tubes and the like, were delayed in getting to him or her. That's not necessarily the case: Again, because Boston has more than one paramedic unit, the system can route around trouble, and another unit did get to the Pru.
Actually, the police
blocked roads in direct response to the protesters' actions. So it is correct and proper to put this on the protesters themselves, regardless of whether or nor it was their intent to impede the movement of emergency vehicles.
If we're going down this path...
The protests were a direct response to Pantaleo killing Garner. So maybe it is correct and proper to put this on Pantaleo? Or would it make more sense to put the blame on Garner, for having the audacity to die under such gentle treatment.
Every time an ambulance is delayed by Red Sox game traffic, or a holiday parade, do we put the blame on the Sox? on the fans? If we don't condemn them for screwing up traffic to cheer on a sportsball game, or celebrate St Patrick's day, it doesn't seem fair to condemn the protesters.
I have to disagree with you, peter.
At least with ball games and other events, the police often handle things better by forcing people to move over for ambulances and other emergency vehicles. The protestors insisted on blocking access to hospitals and they caused a traffic jam that impeded the EMT's ability to respond to a heart attack, which is a life or death matter. It IS fair, imho, to condemn the protestors.
If I decide I need to get
If I decide I need to get naked in public because the Patriots win, it's my fault when I get arrested, not Tom Brady's.
Thousands of folks causing roads to be blocked by
protesting is not the same as Red Sox game traffic and/or a holiday parade doing the same. Ambulances would know about the parade route and adjust accordingly and many folks park away from Fenway and do walk and/or take the T to the park.
A few weeks ago, protestors blocked I-95 in Providence; some were almost killed:
http://www.abc6.com/story/27483671/i-95-in-providence-shut-down-temporar...
and preventing an ambulance from going through:
http://twitchy.com/2014/11/26/shutitdown-peaceful-protesters-blocking-am...
Protest yes. Block road networks no.
Since a heart attack or a stroke is a life or death matter,
it's of utmost importance that the victim be transported...pronto...to the closest hospital. Any type of delay, no matter what it is, can and will have deadly consequences.
Good concept
Now when all those motorists decide to hold their twice-daily critical mass drives, where more of them attempt to use the roads than will fit and block ambulances, we can ask that they all be prevented from doing so because MPLO says they are going to kill someone!!!!!
You don't seem to get my point, do you, Swirlybabe.
Quite frankly, I generally make it a point to avoid replying to your posts because you have such a nasty, foul, intolerant attitude towards people, including myself, who openly differ with what you have to say. Your smugness is rather sickening. What I'm saying is that guy with the heart attack was lucky that he didn't die. Traffic shouldn't be blocked unnecessarily, and if you think that doing so during a protest is an emergency, I disagree with you, because there are better ways to do it. Suppose a loved one, a friend or neighbor of yours had been the heart attack victim at the Pru, whom the protesters helped impede the ability of the EMT's, etc, to get to? That's something that you should probably think about.
You REALLY disgust me, SwirlyGrrl!
Your sarcasm and your tendency to openly devalue and dehumanize people who openly differ with your opinions is rather stomach-turning, if I may say so.
Yes, a paramedic crew did get
Yes, a paramedic crew did get there. But delayed. Do some research on cRdiac arrests/minicar dial infractions before you imply it made no difference. When someone's heart stops seconds mean the difference between brain tissue death. If the medics for there without a delay the Patient could have more advanced care sooner.
I knew that sooner or later, this was going to happen!
The fact that the protestors prevented EMT's from getting to the prudential center to help transport somebody who was having a heart attack to the hospital is realy, really disgusting! Since I'm way smarter, more perceptive and more aware of things, and more able to predict things happening on the horizon that most people, including everybody on this forum, are willing to give me credit for, I saw this coming from the beginning. I hope the person who had the heart attack was able to get to a hospital and recover.
Don't the protestors realize that when someone is having a heart attack, a stroke, or some other life-threatening illness or injury, that time really IS of the essence, and that allowing the paramedics to get to such a patient is crucial? Every second of every minute counts. Preventing EmT's and ambulances from getting to a heart attack or stroke victim is dangerous, and illegal. One of these days, someone WILL lose his/her life as a consequence of such stupidity on the part of protestors. The protestors back in the 60's and 70's knew enough not to prevent ambulances or other emergency vehicles from getting through. Today's protestors don't, obviously.
I hope the cops arrest every single damned of of these protestors. They get no sympathy from me...no way!!!
Too Bad The EMTs Didn't Help Eric Garner
http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/eric-garner-grand-jury-didnt-see
"When paramedics arrived, they stood around diffidently; the officers did not convey a sense of urgency about anything except getting bystanders to walk away."
That's not even the point, BlackKat.
While Eric Garner's death at the hands of the cops was unfortunate and needless, and things like this are a national issue, there's just no excuse for protestors blocking access to hospitals and/or causing traffic jams that prevent EMT's from getting to and responding to heart attacks, strokes and other life-threatening illnesses. I stand by everything I've said here.
Freedom Zones
So you would prefer the method used during the DNC?
"You are free to protest, but only in this cage over here in the hinterlands, and only between the hours of 2:00 PM and 4:00 PM."
Maybe people ought to learn that with exercise one's rights
comes a responsibility. The cops didn't let the protestors block the Southeast Expressway, because shutting down a highway where people are going 50-60 miles per hour or possibly more could produce some rather macabre results, like deaths and/or serious injuries due to collisions, for example.
What's disgusting is that our whole society has deteriorated to the point where there's no accountability any more..on the part of almost everybody. No matter what somebody or other does, they're always petted and praised as a good lass or lad. It's disgusting, imho.
God, I would have hated to
God, I would have hated to see your response to the March on Washington...
Driving is a privilege
Massing in public is a RIGHT.
Therefore, we should not allow private citizens to drive at rush hour or times that citizens are exercising their first amendment rights, because exercise of that driving privilege blocks the roads for emergency vehicles.
Far more logical, considering the difference between driving privilege and assembly rights.
Explain to us how intentionally
blocking roads or standing on streetcar tracks, in order to cause deliberate disruption to others, is considered "peaceful assembly"?
Especially when it adds no meaningful value to the message the group is trying to convey.
Well, SwirllyHoney!
YOU don't seem to understand that if and when people exercise their rights, a big responsibility comes along with that. There's a line that has to be drawn, and the protestors have more than crossed that line when they've blocked access to hospitals, caused traffic jams that've delayed crucial emergency care for a heart attack victim that firefighters and even EMT's are NOT trained to administer on the spot, but require the care of a paramedic, which is somewhat more advanced, and by standing on and shutting down subway train tracks.
Inotherwords, what I'm saying is that there's a point when it's no longer free speech or exercising one's First Amendment Rights, and the protestors have gone way the hell beyond that point. For the most part, the protestors of the 1960's and the 1970's at least knew enough not to go beyond that point and cause delays in necessary medical care for people who are suddenly stricken with life-threatening illnesses such as a heart attack or a stroke while in a public venue or on the street. Today's protestors really don't seem to understand that, and neither do you, SwirlyGrrl. Or, are you just being willfully stupid and ignorant? Probably the latter.
Don't bother to reply to my posts, because i'd rather not debate with you, SwirlyGrrl! Thanks.
One more time... Fire Station
One more time... Fire Station 33 is directly across the street from the scene of the medical emergency. It's full of EMTs & medical equipment. So help WAS available-- but someone failed to call them. Let's throw that person in jail, what do you say?
No, no, no
If you read my original post (shouldn't be hard, it's not that long), you'll see that firefighters and EMTs got to the person at the Pru quickly and were taking care of him or her. It's not a question of somebody not calling 911.
The issue was whether paramedics, who have way more training than firefighters and EMTs - and can perform certain medical procedures they cannot - could get to him. Paramedics are NOT based on Boylston Street.
Google, EMT vs Paramedic.
Google, EMT vs Paramedic. Then do some good thinking, and realize a persons life can be saved if they receive earlier advanced care. Pretty ironic especially if it's due to idiots holding "we can't breathe signs". What if it was your family member dying and you knew more advanced care was delayed due to idiot protesters?
Ooops
I read your original comment and I thought it was actually a brilliant tongue-in-check post. But then I read down and saw you were serious....
Please step away from the keyboard sir.
Your logic of "Someone else should suffer for something completely unrelated to what happened to Eric Garner" shows that you have Fruity Pebbles for brains.
Nuances
The point is the previous poster does not think any protests [exhibited by multiple posts here] are legitimate.
Such posters don't actually care about whether an EMT could respond to a call in a rapid manner. They just seek ammunition against the protests so respond to stories like this with faux outrage. They would prefer the out of sight, out of mind, method of handling large scale, social injustices.
Of course during rush hour,
parades, after sporting events, construction, etc., the EMTs are magically able to fly over the traffic and respond without any delays...
Except parades are scheduled
Except parades are scheduled with routes planned in advance. Last nights nonsense left first responders reacting to everything after the fact instead of being completely prepared in advance.
a traffic jam prevented the vehicle from arriving
the protest may have caused the traffic jam but it's not as if the protestors were riht there not letting the vehicle through
Hello 1970s and goodbye 21
Hello 1970s and goodbye 21 century !
I know, right?! I thought
I know, right?! I thought cops were going to stop shooting people and not be held unaccountable decades ago!
traffic jam because of ...
So not guilty, pathetic or ironic are these jams: the ordinary every day Boston traffic jam or a traffic jam caused by a truck not fitting under a bridge on Storrow or a traffic jam on Marathon Monday or ... ??
My goodness this is a headline worthy of Fox news! You might as well blame Obama.
Translation: "something tragic almost but didn't happen"
"people could have gotten seriously hurt so we should not protest in the streets peacefully against a racist system that continues to allow the deaths of unarmed black and brown people at the hands of white uniformed police who go unpunished". . . really?
Some of the protesters in the 60s and 70s were bombing buildings, kidnapping people, and planning assassinations, by the way. Blocking the streets and staging die-ins is hardly comparable.
You think peaceful mass demonstration in the streets is harmful? Definition of "first world problem"!
Question:
Why aren't you activist types out en masse shouting about the horrifying murder rates in cities like Chicago, where the crimes are overwhemingly black on black? Is that not a crisis worth taking to the streets over? Is that not worth demanding that officials do something meaningful to stop the murder and violence? Or is that violence something to just shrug off?
Difference
It's one thing to be against crime - I think everyone is against crime.
It's another to have crime perpetrated by the officials meant to protect and serve. That's more protest worthy.
Huh?
Is there some quick reference card you refer to when trying to figure which issue is more protest worthy? Like maybe a flow chart or something? Don't you think that children, toddlers, being gunned down in the streets and even in the "safety" of their own homes is protest worthy? Shouldn't there be scores of people tearing through cities like Chicago and Detroit demanding positive change?
Of course
I'm pretty sure there are scores of people in Chicago and Detroit demanding positive change regarding violent crime. They do so in community meetings, and community improvement and education opportunities etc. etc.
When you have an agent of the government committing violent crime, then you have a bit of a problem because they are the people in charge, so protests draw attention to that problem and perhaps (hopefully) get some change going.
More than scores...
http://abc7chicago.com/news/cps-students-lead-anti-violence-rallies-acro...
Apparently...
...their town hall meetings aren't working. If the police descended on the cities I mentioned and began to clean house, no doubt these protesters would take to the streets chanting about police brutality. My conclusion? They think that crime is just fine as long as it is "a bunch of idiots" running around shooting each other. When there is even a hint that a cop might have engaged in illegal behavior... Well then, that's the real issue, and therefore all cops are murderers (according to them).
Oh right
Cause you can change the underlying multitude of problems that promote crime in a week. My bad.
I can guarantee that most will say that crime is not fine, that crime should be lower, that families should deserve to stay together and not be ripped apart by violence. So your assumption that high-crime communities think crime is great is pretty misguided.
What part of "cops are not above the law" don't you understand?
I never said...
...cops are above the law. Just out of curiosity, how much law enforcement experience do you have?
Black people DO tell other black people not to kill black people
If you were black, I guarantee someone would have told you by now "killing your fellow African Americans is terrible, don't do it". You're not hearing that message because you're not black, plain as that. If you actually cared about what they are doing amongst themselves, you'd know about things like "the interrupters" and the gang truce in LA in the 90s and the many marches and rallies that people to spread a message of non-violence in their own community. You don't know because you don't care to.
Do you talk to many Black people?
Several times I week I have a neighbor or kid's friend's parent talk to me on my porch or send me something via social media about initiatives in our own communities to strengthen schools, provide career opportunities, help Black children stay in school and succeed, provide affordable housing, and so forth. People are pretty dang involved in strengthening our own communities. The one thing that the Black community can't singlehandedly eliminate though is the systemic racism that causes our children to have less opportunities and be more likely to become involved in gangs and so forth. Or, you know, be killed by a cop.
What are you doing about the 83% of white homicides that are committed by white people? You really need to be stepping up and working on white-on-white crime.
do you live in Roxbury, Eeka?
do you live in Roxbury, Eeka?
Very different
This was about protesting the abuse of power by those who are paid to serve and protect us.
In Chicago you have a bunch of idiots running around shooting each other, and there are many peace rallies there. You prove yourself to be more ignorant every single time you post something.
Bunch of idiots?
That's racist!
Oh really?
So the three year old who was shot in the face, and 12 year old Samuel Walker are just idiots to you. That's lovely. You prove my point. These activist types are more concerned about an opportunity to foam and the mouth about "racism" than they are about fighting back against a real issue. You don't care about blacks killing blacks. Never have. They are just a convenient opportunity to lash out. Period.
Really
So 7 year old Aiyana Stanley-Jones who was shot and killed by a cop while sleeping on her couch, or the 19 month old who was burned by a stun grenade thrown by cops while sleeping in his crib aren't worth protesting over? There's no problem here, correct?
As i said before, there are many rallies in Chicago related to the violence there. And yes, those who are running around shooting people are idiots, i never said anything about innocent bystanders. If you don't see the difference you are clearly ignorant.
But you initially failed to mention...
...the innocent bystanders. You lumped everyone together with your knee jerk response. I'm glad you finally decided to recognize them.
HAHA
re-read your prior posts with sweeping generalizations, you're as dumb as they come broski.
The straws that racists grasp
The straws that racists grasp at to discredit these protestors are remarkable.
What exactly was racist about
What exactly was racist about what he said? To throw out a racism charge just because someone disagrees with you makes you, and any point you attempt to make, look foolish. There is plenty of real racism that can be highlighted. Don't make stuff up.
An expected response...
I put a real issue at your feet and you immediately resport to calling me a racist. Laughable. It's really all you have to go on. Obviously you have proven my point since you completely disregarded my post.
The fact is that folks like
The fact is that folks like you, who opine on "black on black crime" whenever the issue of police brutality comes up, are demonstrating the sort of coded racism that has become so prevalent. Here is why these claims, as well as you, are being racist:
1. You're erasing the very real issues that the black activists, organizers, and protestors are engaging by trying to derail the conversation and minimizing their efforts.
2. You're implying that these protestors do not care about violence in their communities, which is patently untrue. There are countless organizations in places like Chicago doing the very work you're deriding the protestors for not doing (and furthermore, you fail to consider the possibility that these two groups often overlap, which they do)
3. You're presenting "black-on-black" crime as a unique, special issue, thus demonstrating ignorance of the fact that the vast majority of crime is intraracial because, surprise surprise, most crime occurs locally within communities.
But no, please go out out and tell the thousands and thousands of protestors what the REAL issues are because clearly you are an authority on the political reality of their lives.
One thing Noah with point #3
Are you saying urban black on black crime is not a special, unique issue?
I would say it is.
(Somewhat agree with your point 1 and 2)
It wasn't specified
Urban crime in black communities was not specified so I did not address it. But urban crime in any community, regardless of race, merits consideration. It's presenting urban crime, an already very vague premise, as a uniquely black pathology that is problematic. There has been a swell of research and articles the past 6 months that address this issue in context of the charges of "black on black crime"; this older article is particularly good.
Next time you are in a traffic jam
And an Ambulance is trying to get through, are you going to throw the same sort of tantrums over people using their driving privileges when there is no room on the road for them to be there that you are currently throwing over people exercising their first amendment rights?
We don't have control over
We don't have control over civilian murder rates. But when killings are perpetrated IN OUR NAMES by people WHOM WE PAY, we have not only the right but the duty to speak up.
Dear protestors, Karma's a
Dear protestors, Karma's a bitch. Blocking access to emergency medical care is reprehensible. If you really think that black lives matter, then why don't you do some community service work in Mattapan, Roxbury, Dorchester. Have you even ever stepped foot in those neighborhoods? Can you find them on a map? March in those communities and show support where the people you supposedly care about actually live! Oh right, it's easier to stop by the Starbucks on Boylston St. first, yes I saw you there in line, and then continue to a children's holiday event. Nice and safe at Starbucks in the Back Bay and then how convenient to saunter toward the pretty lights at the Boston Common with those wonderful performances by talented black artists that you tried to drown out with your black lives matter chants. Apparently black singers and dancers don't matter to you though. All the while the police were there to protect you while you crashed a holiday tradition for children. Too scary to march down Blue Hill Ave. though, right? Have any of you done a day's worth of community service in your life? I doubt it. If you want to make a difference, start at the source, not the cozy tourists spots where you can pop in for your latte if you're a tad chilly in the middle of disrupting Canadian-sponsored holiday events for families. Oh, and that bit about not knowing how to get on the Zakim bridge... classic! Stay in school, kids!
The people making a difference aren't blocking highways, they're working in those very communities that you wouldn't dare go near. Reality check!
And you know this how?
Do you know any of the protesters who marched last night? Do you know what else they have going on in their lives, what other causes they might be involved in?
I doubt it.
But, OK, I'm sure you're a regular at Ali's Roti on Blue Hill Avenue and do regular do-gooder stuff with volunteer efforts in Roxbury. Right?
Oh Adam. Give it a rest
Oh Adam. Give it a rest please. This is really getting out of hand. If people want to protest go ahead and protest peacefully . Stop blocking traffic and leave children out of the battle unless they are your own. If half of these protesters volunteered in our inner city instead of playing dead on the street for the past few nights city Boston would be a better place.
Amen!
Best comment in the entire thread! Can't we all just get along? Happy Holidays ! Be kind to one another. It is contagious.
The rally after the Mike Brown decision was in Roxbury
and I saw tons of my fellow white people out there. You can say the words "You weenies are too pussy to actually go to the actual ghetto" but you don't actually know wtf you're talking about. My first home was Dot, I go all over the city and frankly I'm more intimidated by white ghettos like Charlestown and Southie than I am in Roxbury or whatever. I've been assaulted by police a few times, never by any of the many many black people that I've shared space with all my life. You think I don't know what racism is? I punched a black friend of mine in elementary school right in the head and the teachers made HIM apologize to ME. My nephew bares a passing resemblance to that 12 year old the cops shot without warning in the park because he was holding a bb gun, and I do not want to lose him because cops are paranoid of black people and "he grabbed at his waste band" is a get-out-of-jail-free card for cops.
Thank goodness
I thought they might have been kept from responding by just a normal traffic jam. Then we could have upset Markk over our discussion of all the people driving around the area being the cause of someone's death because they blocked the paramedics from having a clear street to drive on.
Also, nice of you to point out, Adam, that firefighters were on the scene first (as they almost always are) and were providing medical attention to the person until EMTs could arrive. So, at no point was the person in any imminent danger...but hey, let's not distract from the simplification of getting mad at the protesters for the backup ambulance being the one to roll.
You know how it would have gone
Of course you know that said person would not blame the cars but the width of the sidewalks which if eliminated entirely would add travel lanes to reduce congestion. Also if the person having a heart attack was wearing a flourescent vest he might not have had the attack.
Where did you hear that
Where did you hear that firefighters are usually first on scene for medical calls? Where do you get your facts? Why do you think there is Boston ems and Boston fire dept? Two seperate entities? And also, most firefighters are also EMTS. The more advanced care of paramedics vs EMTS was delayed. Which could have made a difference between life and death, if you knew anything about this field of work. If your family member had did bcause of a delay of more advanced care due to protester idiots how would you feel???
I read and learn things
There was a Globe article about 2 years ago I think it was that discussed why we still have Fire AND EMS instead of Fire/EMS like many other cities have done to save costs. It talked about how having a Fire Department that only deals with fires is extremely wasteful these days because fires are less frequent now more than ever and instead of sitting on their hands, we train them as EMTs and send them on medical calls because they are better distributed in the city than EMS and can arrive faster/first nearly every time.
I followed that up by reading the twitter feed that Adam quoted for this article and it said specifically that fire staff on site with the patient said he was stable with a pulse but unconscious while EMS was reassigning P2 instead of P1 to respond. So, they were monitoring his vitals and condition while waiting for EMS to arrive for transport and "better care". He was unconscious but breathing, so they didn't need to intubate.
Yes, paramedics can do doctorly things a firefighter EMS can't. But that isn't always necessary. If this was your canary in the coal mine for a protest creating a life-or-death situation it fails in that the person wasn't quickly approaching death fortunately in the extra 3-5 minutes it took for P2 to take over for P1. I'd love to know the call time. I found the 2011 goal for a Priority-1 response for Boston EMS was 6 minutes, Priority-2 was 7 minutes. I'm betting this was pretty close given the twitter timeline regardless of the switch of EMS (and from what I can tell they changed it from P1 to P2 due to the fact that they were stable, just unconscious).
But by all means pretend they nearly died so you can keep blaming the protest for "nearly killing someone". It's a convenient narrative if you just want to make protests go away.
i was there
I was at the protests for most of the night. It's horrible that traffic jam caused EMS not to be able to respond. However, this traffic jam situation must have been backed up very far away from protestors. all vehicles and people were allowed through including medics to treat a protestor at one point. Police also created traffic jam by blocking access to particular roads. It is a sad situation but my point is that it could have been caused by anything, including a car accident. all emergency vehicles trying to pass through protestors directly were allowed easy access through. Saying its the protestors fault is like saying its the fault of the guy whose tire exploded on the highway and caused the delay in response.
People absolutely have a
People absolutely have a right to protest, but the police blocked diverted traffic to avoid gridlock and keep the protestors from getting run over. And the guy whose tire blows on the highway is not staging a die in and laying down in the middle of the mass turnpike.
I disagree, jenna.
This;
is something that I do disagree with, because it was the fault of the protestors, as well as the cops. If the cops had handled it only by closing off specific streets to motor vehicular traffic, thereby creating a special route for the protestors to march along, and re-routed the traffic around it, and had the protestors not been stupid enough to try to shut down the Southeast Expressway, all that crap could've been avoided, imho. The protesters, as far as I'm concerned, brought this on themselves.
Why are you protesting
More than 98% of the idiots protesting have never had a incident with the police which makes this protest a joke. They are all a bunch of sheep. I tell you what, if you are blocking an intersection I'm trying to get through unless there's a red light I will run your worthless asses over. Go back to your schools the 60's and 70's are over, so take your protests and stick them where the sun don't shine!!
So frickin' what?
The white folks who marched in the 1960s had never experienced the sort of discrimination and violence the blacks with whom they marched were experiencing on a daily basis.
The fact that you're unable to experience the least shred of empathy for others suggests it's maybe a good thing you don't go out in public much.
Question:
Why do you snap back at your readers like that? If anything, I feel like you have a responsibility to moderate rather than fire back at people.
Other factors unknown
If the victim was breathing and had an unobstructed airway, with major EDs within a mile distance, do EMS EMT units have the ability to load and go? Do EMTs have cardiac monitors - if so, did the victim have a stable rhythm? A detectable BP?
Do we know this was a cardiac event and not an OD or other type of problem?
Was this EMT crew squawking to a hospital?
In many other cities - and especially in more rural areas where there is no redundancy, if even basic services, a first responder - police, fire, EMT - would package a breathing person and hie thee post haste.
It's great to have paramedics, but in this case as presented (lots if missing info), I'm puzzled as to the decision to keep on scene and wait.
Second question is why BPD didn't facilitate the garaged medic unit to a point of unobstructed egress before the protesters arrived. Having participated in citywide mass casualty preps, having responders obstructed/delayed is a routine part of the planning, and the response is to facilitate their redeployment. Wonder why that didn't happen here...